Lucian Alliance

[morbosfist]

How do you say that? Eccho's (the 2nd ep in atlantis that had the whales) dealt with a massive solar flare. The cities shields could have protected the place. NOT so against a nova though.

As long as Atlantis is on Earth, their gate would override dialling from anywhere. Pegasus gates do that.

BUT it has a ring transporter. Park a hatak or alkesh over the area, and ring down.

Assuming it's still there, and that's a two way street. They'd ring a bomb right back up and shoot anyone coming down.

watch enemy at the gates. The Wraith destroyed it (it was in area 51).. well the chair was.

They destroyed the building, but we don't know if they got the entire tech arsenal.

Good point. WE don't know what they know of our tech on the 304s.. for all we know they could have the intel on how to build their own one, but lakc the tech/tools to do so.

One spy cannot steal that kind of info. He'd be caught.

Hell.. just a small naquida reactor set to overload...

Which they could never smuggle on a 304.

I'll give you Ba'al, but how do we know they only had 1 spy? Hell, it would to me, make them even more stupid than they were in SG1 if they DID..

They only had one spy because Telford is all they could get to. They had opportunity with him, not with anyone else.

if they were thugs how did they take the Oddesy? How did they storm and almost take the destiny?

With superior numbers, surprise attacks, and general ruthlessness. That doesn't make them an army like Earth has.

Did we know the destiny could sun dive, till it did? NO so, don't say the LA could not do x.

By that logic, I could say the LA stole twenty Ori ships and just have them as backup somewhere. That kind of argument isn't an excuse for the implausible, only a means of ignoring the obvious. The LA, in all the time we've known them, do not act like that.

That's what people thought irl about Al'Quedaia.... LOOK where that got us.
That is also what the Gou'ald thought about us Tau'ri... look where it got THEM.

Not even a valid comparison. Not going to address the terror example, that's Earth-based and doesn't apply here. The Goa'uld just never treated Earth like a threat until they started knocking off System Lords, and then the Protected Planets treaty kept them in check.

So how many asteroids can you do that to? 5 at a time? While that keeps your 304;s occupied who is guarding the planet?

And the LA is really going to take the time to harvest dozens of asteroids, hyperspace them in, then somehow end up at the planet the exact same time as Earth detects and removes the asteroids? I don't think so. Getting a big enough asteroid is one thing. Acting like they're going to collect dozens is just silly. Even if they did, beam weapons could destroy them. They'd be reduced to harmless chunks in seconds. Anubis built the asteroid he sent against Earth. The LA aren't going to be doing that.

[garhkal]

As long as Atlantis is on Earth, their gate would override dialling from anywhere. Pegasus gates do that.

Only if we are dialed in first. Atlantis could not stop the Asurans dialing in and blasting us with that beam satellite.

Assuming it's still there, and that's a two way street. They'd ring a bomb right back up and shoot anyone coming down.

Assuming anyone was manning the place AND we didn't send a 1 sec delay stun device to take them out (like the wraith used in midway.)

They destroyed the building, but we don't know if they got the entire tech arsenal.

I will grant that..

One spy cannot steal that kind of info. He'd be caught.

Yet look how much Telford got them.

Which they could never smuggle on a 304.

How do we know. Look at what others have done...

They only had one spy because Telford is all they could get to. They had opportunity with him, not with anyone else.

Are you sure of that? Look at how many the trust had. THE LA is as smart/good as they are.

With superior numbers, surprise attacks, and general ruthlessness. That doesn't make them an army like Earth has.

What army? WE have 5 ships, 6 or so squadrons of 302s. What massive army?

By that logic, I could say the LA stole twenty Ori ships and just have them as backup somewhere. That kind of argument isn't an excuse for the implausible, only a means of ignoring the obvious. The LA, in all the time we've known them, do not act like that.

So. Just cause we don't know they ave done it befoer is NOT an argument against them doing it in the future. Remember, the talk about the Gou'ald building ships that could now stand up to the Asgard? People thought they would not do that.. But they did.

Not even a valid comparison. Not going to address the terror example, that's Earth-based and doesn't apply here. The Goa'uld just never treated Earth like a threat until they started knocking off System Lords, and then the Protected Planets treaty kept them in check.

And yet look at how much problems we had before we got put INTO the PPT. And we still had issues..

And the LA is really going to take the time to harvest dozens of asteroids, hyperspace them in, then somehow end up at the planet the exact same time as Earth detects and removes the asteroids? I don't think so. Getting a big enough asteroid is one thing. Acting like they're going to collect dozens is just silly. Even if they did, beam weapons could destroy them. They'd be reduced to harmless chunks in seconds. Anubis built the asteroid he sent against Earth. The LA aren't going to be doing that.

If they want to take us out, i can see it.

[thekillman]

Ba'al is dead

his ha'tak are not

It's highly doubtful Arthur's Mantle was destroyed. Two Darts coming in at that speed would literally vaporize on impact, and they aimed for the center building.

indeed. like two really heavy bombs.

An Al'kesh could not bomb the facility because F-302s would shoot it down before it ever got close. They have to get close to the ground to bomb.

do you really think they have 302's up in the air 24/7. no. permanent stand-by, yes. but as Lost City shows, you are pretty fast on the surface. they can even attach 3 tungsten bars to the al'kesh and drop them mid-dive.

Rogues would only have a couple Ha'taks at best, if that. And Qetesh makes it clear Ba'al crushed all opposition. If there were thousands of Ha'taks, they wouldn't be massing such piddly forces. Battles would involve dozens if not hundreds of ships.

to beat a dozen you need more than a dozen. also yes Baal took quite a few ha'tak with him. mind you that, since events played out a little differently, goauld like Anubis had no chance to create fleets?

Still dreaming. "the ha'tak can hide in the Hive's central hole and pound at it." Are you serious? No pilot is that good

pilots? what pilots. you have superpowerful sensors, with super powerful computers. let the computer do the work, no living being can do that! hell, some women can't even park their CARS. which is why we have parking help in the form of.... computers and sensors.

The Hive would just have to turn and the Ha'tak would get knocked out. Furthermore, a Ha'tak's power-size ratio is still inferior. Hive hulls are better than Ha'tak shields and they have more guns which are stronger. You can make excuses, but Ha'taks are the least powerful mothership class vessel in this series.

1: you don't want 800 meters of naquahdah to explode in the middle of your ship. say what you want, but the hive and any escorts would be vapourised.

2: a ha'tak has, size/power wise, far superior weapons and shields. besides, hives actually get damage from nukes and railguns, where ha'tak can eat that all day and the only drain would be the base energy requirement.

3: a hive is defeated by a 304. even a REGULAR 304. a hive is 11km. a 304 is -supposedly- some 200 meters. i'll use the 500 as well.

11km = 22 304's, in lenght. given the relative dimensions of a 304 and a hive, they fit pretty well, so a hive is roughly 22 x 22 x 22 = 10640 304's. assuming that it is 500 meters. even with just a lenght figure, a 22x weaker power/size ratio is pretty damn weak.

a ha'tak however is impervious to a standard 304's weapons yet it's own weapons DO inflict harm. therefore, a ha'tak will win from a 304, and therefore, a ha'tak has a better size/power ratio than a hive. given that a single APBW shot vapourised half a Hive, APBW's are no measure of power since they're instagibs. note that the hive in this case was still in the process of blowing up when the second and third blow landed. in short, it was pure and utter overkill.

Pure fantasy. The Hammond wasn't even shooting back. Those three Ha'taks would be dead beofre that ever happened, and the Hammond never claims to be in danger of shields failing. You're making these figures up.

it wasn't because -obviously- the ha'tak took out the APBW's. which are glass cannons, as SGA so perfectly shows. Carter clearly says the gate was active for a full 6 minutes, and the gate was dialled easily within 2 minutes of the first blow.

You're giving the LA abilities they have never even remotely displayed to try to make your point work. They don't act like this, ever. They've done one ambush with space mines, that's it. When it comes to strategy, they aren't a people of subtlety. They're thugs.

it should be clear by now that the LA of SGU use their brains. abilities? the only ability any enemy earth faces ever needs to win is their BRAIN. BRAIN BRAIN BRAIN. the only reason SG1 didn't end after, scratch that, DURING the first episode, was because the goauld have no brains, just empty skulls. the Ori have no brains cause they're ascended, but their followers instantly loose their brains the moment they follow origin. in fact, earth probably has an Idiot Ball at it's core, and we've grown immune to it. the rest of the galaxy feels it's effect.



they've done one ambush. yes. performed by the idiot site. the fact that Kiva instantly recognised Telford as someone using the stones, and pierced through Rush's lies, shows that the current LA are no stupid idiots. all it takes is a brain. that's all it takes. the galaxy is filled with goauld technology left behind. mind you, Daniel jackson clearly states that the LA controls the goauld's stuff now.

Again you try to use brainwashing to excuse flaws. No, this would never and could never happen. None of your plans are remotely feasible. Za'tarcs could not reprogram every active 304. To think that is possible is simply insane. Mimic devices would require finding every single technician. Again, not going to happen. Finally, leaked info would not get rid of all the 304s. One ship would be sent to check, if not just a team through the Stargate.

brainwashing is a really convenient method to achieve all your desires. it's that lame, yes. it's just that nobody in the writer's room ever realized the potential.

there's no NEED to reprogram every 304. all it takes is one idiot with a Zat in the engineering room, ALA Lost Tribe. Za'tarc someone working there, make him go on a rampage. he might, in fact he WILL be killed and stopped, but not before some major damage is done. shoot the APBW's and you're done, in fact.

reprogramming a backdoor is as easy as bribing/brainwashing/whatevering someone working in the IT department of a 304, and uploading a programme from a USB stick. takes a moment. all you need is access. given how easily some people in SG1/SGA hack computers, the security must be crap. i mean, all those override commands!.



besides, if all it takes to hack a government's security is a teenager with a computer and internet....

One ship would be sent to check, if not just a team through the Stargate

block the gate. one ship is sent. well that's one ship less to worry about. there will be a ship in Pegasus, there will be a ship supplying Atlantis (which supposedly is back in Pegasus) Per SGA canon. that's 2 less. most ships will be doing missions in the MW. have some people screw up those missions and delay the 304's. whole lot less pests to worry about. last but not least, disable the remaining 304's in any of the previously described ways, and you're done.


you think WAY too straight and fair. if a faction is dominant in fair warfare, the enemy will do it dirty.

Again, abilities they do not have nor have ever shown.

what ability? they only need some nukes. Orbanians, Tagreans, Breeders, Hebridans, the remains of that ori sattelite planet. you name it. plenty of nukes. or steal some of earth's 100000 nukes.

mind you, Talion. the jaffa were attempting to nuke earth with naquahdah-filled tel'tak.

More brainwashing excuses. Falling back on this is silly, and if you're going to use it for every conceivable option then there's nothing left to argue. It isn't some magic force that can find and affect anyone.

Strike forces have been tried and would be beaten. Beaming would not work through the cloak.

that, my friend, is pure bogus on your part. beaming through the cloak has never been proven not to work.

All of which I've already shown to be unfeasible.

you really suck at arguing

Being imaginative here means giving the LA abilities they have yet to display. They'd never do things like this.

you do realise this means the end of Stargate. you know that SG1 and SGA LOVE to have earth encompassed by a planetary Plot shield and a planetary Hero shield.

Oh, so they have suicide bombers now. There goes credibility. These people are not fanatics. They aren't going to be doing such things. The rest is just inventing abilities again.

brainwashing? there are plenty of fanatics in the middle east region who are HAPPY to do it!

And when Earth just hyperspaces them right back out?

scuse me. THAT would be the absolute hilarity. moment they do that, you pull the trigger of course!

As long as Atlantis is on Earth, their gate would override dialling from anywhere. Pegasus gates do that.

so what? steal Mckay's anti-override protocol.

methods: Brainwashing (this never gets old), personal cloaks, mimic devices, strike teams, good old fashioned bribing. what else?

Assuming it's still there, and that's a two way street. They'd ring a bomb right back up and shoot anyone coming down.

programm the rings so they don't accept incomings. on the tel'tak, that is. also, programme the nuke so it detonates on reintegration, just like the siege.

They destroyed the building, but we don't know if they got the entire tech arsenal.

no need to. the Mantle is sufficient.

[thekillman]

One spy cannot steal that kind of info. He'd be caught.

one of those subspace transcievers would be really handy here, wouldn't it?

They only had one spy because Telford is all they could get to. They had opportunity with him, not with anyone else.

pure, total and utter bogus. you have no evidence. there was a spy that revealed Icarus, and that was Telford. we don't know if there are more. considering they look like us now (see the reference), they can just brainwash the technician when he's in his bath at
home, with his wife and children at gun, erm, zat-point.

Which they could never smuggle on a 304.

no need to. we know they're used for backup power.

With superior numbers, surprise attacks, and general ruthlessness. That doesn't make them an army like Earth has.

by that logic, they can just take out the fleet one by one.

By that logic, I could say the LA stole twenty Ori ships and just have them as backup somewhere. That kind of argument isn't an excuse for the implausible, only a means of ignoring the obvious. The LA, in all the time we've known them, do not act like that.

but we're not talking about highly advanced technology. we're talking stuff that, according to SG1, is pretty plentiful.

Not even a valid comparison. Not going to address the terror example, that's Earth-based and doesn't apply here. The Goa'uld just never treated Earth like a threat until they started knocking off System Lords, and then the Protected Planets treaty kept them in check.

you do realise that, when an army is dominant in conventional warfare, the enemy will resort to unconventional warfare. SG1 did it. now the LA does it. all the suicide terrorists in the middle east do it.

And the LA is really going to take the time to harvest dozens of asteroids, hyperspace them in, then somehow end up at the planet the exact same time as Earth detects and removes the asteroids? I don't think so. Getting a big enough asteroid is one thing. Acting like they're going to collect dozens is just silly. Even if they did, beam weapons could destroy them. They'd be reduced to harmless chunks in seconds. Anubis built the asteroid he sent against Earth. The LA aren't going to be doing that.

you have no idea about outer space, do you? in our solar system we have, depending on the exact definition of what the boundary of the solar system is, tens of thousands to millions of asteroids. and there are PLENTY of big ones. in fact, the moons of mars are two big asteroids which are smaller than the one in Fail Safe. .

also i doubt you understand what happens if you go blast an asteroid with regular weapons. it shatters. and those fragements are your enemy. why the hell do you think all movies plant nukes inside an asteroid? that the only harmless way.

[Jacdru]

Apologies if this topic has been raised before but after doing a brief search, I couldn't find anything like it.

I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts on the Lucian Alliance Earth attack plot are?

Personally, I don't understand why all of a sudden the Alliance has become a huge threat. From what I gather, they control a portion of what was previously the Goa'uld's domain, not the entire thing. Even if they could raise numbers that match the Goa'uld's entire fleet, Earth has at least 3 Daedalus class ships in the Milkyway outfitted the latest Asguard tech. These upgrades made light work of the Ori ships so surely Hatac's would be easy.

Earth also has the ancient outpost which was able to destroy the entire fleet of Anubis, including his capital ship which had the power to destroy entire planets. At the moment, Atlantis is also at earth providing another "weapons platform" from which to take pot-shots at any Alliance fleet from (though I understand this may not be the case depending on the time line of the new Atlantis Movie).

Finally, if memory recalls, Carter discovered how to modify Merlin's device so it could phase an entire planet, making it impervious to attack (sorry for the spelling, I've forgotten the Ancient version of his name). All of this together means that earth is far from being the defenceless target that Col. Young has implied it is in the last two episodes.

So, what do you think?

I think that you should forget all that you know about the alliance from SG1 and SGA and focus on SGU, we basicly have no idea how the writers have put them, what has happend between end of season 10 of SG1 and start of SGU, we have no clue on what has happend in the universe.

Also the Alliance might have gotten a huge following, got their hand on stolen Ori technolgy, ships or even Asgaard tech.
So a attack on earth by them is defently a remote possiblity

But then again you know Wrights and SGUs writer and producers view on keeping in line with the other SG-series. SGU is their own and he wants us to watch it as he wants to see it.

[morbosfist]

his ha'tak are not

Doesn't mean he kept scores of data on his ships on every Earth operation, nor is it proof that his ships are in Alliance hands when it's the SGC that hunted him down.

do you really think they have 302's up in the air 24/7. no. permanent stand-by, yes. but as Lost City shows, you are pretty fast on the surface. they can even attach 3 tungsten bars to the al'kesh and drop them mid-dive.

They could scramble the fighters long before the Al'kesh could get close, and again you're inventing things that the LA or Goa'uld have never done. There's no bomb bay on an Al'kesh.

to beat a dozen you need more than a dozen. also yes Baal took quite a few ha'tak with him. mind you that, since events played out a little differently, goauld like Anubis had no chance to create fleets?

Which still does nothing to prove your assertion that the Goa'uld have thousands of these ships. The Alliance has never committed more than three ships to any one battle. Apophis could barely manage two. Anubis had somewhere around a dozen. THey do not and could not have thousands of ships if these piddly numbers are all they are willing to commit.

pilots? what pilots. you have superpowerful sensors, with super powerful computers. let the computer do the work, no living being can do that! hell, some women can't even park their CARS. which is why we have parking help in the form of.... computers and sensors.

Name one time a Ha'tak has been piloted by computer, Thor's mind notwithstanding. Not even a computer could do those kind of maneuvers, and to even get there it'd have to get past the sheer firepower of the Hive.

1: you don't want 800 meters of naquahdah to explode in the middle of your ship. say what you want, but the hive and any escorts would be vapourised.

2: a ha'tak has, size/power wise, far superior weapons and shields. besides, hives actually get damage from nukes and railguns, where ha'tak can eat that all day and the only drain would be the base energy requirement.

3: a hive is defeated by a 304. even a REGULAR 304. a hive is 11km. a 304 is -supposedly- some 200 meters. i'll use the 500 as well.

11km = 22 304's, in lenght. given the relative dimensions of a 304 and a hive, they fit pretty well, so a hive is roughly 22 x 22 x 22 = 10640 304's. assuming that it is 500 meters. even with just a lenght figure, a 22x weaker power/size ratio is pretty damn weak.

a ha'tak however is impervious to a standard 304's weapons yet it's own weapons DO inflict harm. therefore, a ha'tak will win from a 304, and therefore, a ha'tak has a better size/power ratio than a hive. given that a single APBW shot vapourised half a Hive, APBW's are no measure of power since they're instagibs. note that the hive in this case was still in the process of blowing up when the second and third blow landed. in short, it was pure and utter overkill.

Are you joking? A 304 has never beaten a Hive before beam weapons. They've cheated with beaming tech, and they nuke-spammed one and didn't kill it. A Ha'tak has neither advantage. The only reason a Ha'tak does better against rail guns is because shields deflect the rounds. A Hive Ship just absorbs the hits with minimal damage. Size/power ratios mean nothing. A Ha'tak is an inferior vessel, no two ways about it. No matter how much you go on about size, that won't change.

it wasn't because -obviously- the ha'tak took out the APBW's. which are glass cannons, as SGA so perfectly shows. Carter clearly says the gate was active for a full 6 minutes, and the gate was dialled easily within 2 minutes of the first blow.

They never said the beam weapons were disabled. It may not have had them at all.

it should be clear by now that the LA of SGU use their brains. abilities? the only ability any enemy earth faces ever needs to win is their BRAIN. BRAIN BRAIN BRAIN. the only reason SG1 didn't end after, scratch that, DURING the first episode, was because the goauld have no brains, just empty skulls. the Ori have no brains cause they're ascended, but their followers instantly loose their brains the moment they follow origin. in fact, earth probably has an Idiot Ball at it's core, and we've grown immune to it. the rest of the galaxy feels it's effect.

There's a difference between them having brains and plot-breaking competence. You're giving them the latter, using abilities way beyond the scope of this show to justify how they could be a threat.

they've done one ambush. yes. performed by the idiot site. the fact that Kiva instantly recognised Telford as someone using the stones, and pierced through Rush's lies, shows that the current LA are no stupid idiots. all it takes is a brain. that's all it takes. the galaxy is filled with goauld technology left behind. mind you, Daniel jackson clearly states that the LA controls the goauld's stuff now.

Kiva only knew because Rush didn't know the code. Daniel Jackson states that they've taken Goa'uld tech. They did not take the entire empire. The Jaffa did that.

[morbosfist]

brainwashing is a really convenient method to achieve all your desires. it's that lame, yes. it's just that nobody in the writer's room ever realized the potential.

there's no NEED to reprogram every 304. all it takes is one idiot with a Zat in the engineering room, ALA Lost Tribe. Za'tarc someone working there, make him go on a rampage. he might, in fact he WILL be killed and stopped, but not before some major damage is done. shoot the APBW's and you're done, in fact.

reprogramming a backdoor is as easy as bribing/brainwashing/whatevering someone working in the IT department of a 304, and uploading a programme from a USB stick. takes a moment. all you need is access. given how easily some people in SG1/SGA hack computers, the security must be crap. i mean, all those override commands!.

Again, using brainwashing as an excuse to give the Alliance magical powers to affect anyone anywhere is just bad reasoning. Telford was the only spy they had. You're talking about kidnapping, reprogramming, and then sending back people off the streets and expecting no one to notice.

block the gate. one ship is sent. well that's one ship less to worry about. there will be a ship in Pegasus, there will be a ship supplying Atlantis (which supposedly is back in Pegasus) Per SGA canon. that's 2 less. most ships will be doing missions in the MW. have some people screw up those missions and delay the 304's. whole lot less pests to worry about. last but not least, disable the remaining 304's in any of the previously described ways, and you're done.

Per the above, not going to happen. They'd send one ship, probably the Hammond, to check it out. That leaves three other ships which can beat any fleet that challenges them.

you think WAY too straight and fair. if a faction is dominant in fair warfare, the enemy will do it dirty.

There's a difference between playing dirty and giving the enemy what is essentially limitless competence and fourth-wall level planning.

what ability? they only need some nukes. Orbanians, Tagreans, Breeders, Hebridans, the remains of that ori sattelite planet. you name it. plenty of nukes. or steal some of earth's 100000 nukes.

Allies, allies, random planet, dead planet. All of whom are not interstellar nor ever in the Alliance sphere of influence. Space is very big. Earth's nukes are likewise not going to just be stolen. People tend to look after them carefully.

mind you, Talion. the jaffa were attempting to nuke earth with naquahdah-filled tel'tak.

He was specifically dishonorable and a coward. The Alliance prefers brute force, per Ginn's testimony.

that, my friend, is pure bogus on your part. beaming through the cloak has never been proven not to work.

You cannot lock on to something you cannot detect.

you do realise this means the end of Stargate. you know that SG1 and SGA LOVE to have earth encompassed by a planetary Plot shield and a planetary Hero shield.

So SGU is going to have Earth die by the suddenly ridiculously overpowered LA to be different? No.

brainwashing? there are plenty of fanatics in the middle east region who are HAPPY to do it!

The LA are not from the Middle East.

scuse me. THAT would be the absolute hilarity. moment they do that, you pull the trigger of course!

Because, again, the LA is suddenly so ridiculously competent that they'll go harvesting dozens of asteroids, filling them with valuable naquadah that they usually sell, and equipping them with bombs just in case? If not hyperspace, they can always be blown up, and they'd never get close to Earth with a ship in orbit as there always is.

so what? steal Mckay's anti-override protocol.

methods: Brainwashing (this never gets old), personal cloaks, mimic devices, strike teams, good old fashioned bribing. what else?

There's no such thing. McKay used a lot of tricks on a space station with a dialling computer to make that work. The rest is, I must reiterate, just inventing abilities. Bribing is outright laughable.

programm the rings so they don't accept incomings. on the tel'tak, that is. also, programme the nuke so it detonates on reintegration, just like the siege.

The nukes were set on a short timer, and rings always accept incoming matter.

no need to. the Mantle is sufficient.

Which you assume is gone. You cannot prove it.

one of those subspace transcievers would be really handy here, wouldn't it?

Talking doesn't defeat security measures. Telford does not have that kind of access.

pure, total and utter bogus. you have no evidence. there was a spy that revealed Icarus, and that was Telford. we don't know if there are more. considering they look like us now (see the reference), they can just brainwash the technician when he's in his bath at home, with his wife and children at gun, erm, zat-point.

Brainwashing isn't that fast, per Teal'c when Ba'al tried it.

no need to. we know they're used for backup power.

Which multiple people are monitoring at all times.

by that logic, they can just take out the fleet one by one.

Every invasion and siege attempt has failed. They wouldn't get very far.

but we're not talking about highly advanced technology. we're talking stuff that, according to SG1, is pretty plentiful.

But does not fit with the mindset or general attitude of the LA. They use stolen Goa'uld tech. "Street gangs with spaceships," as Rush says. They aren't a people of subtlety.

you do realise that, when an army is dominant in conventional warfare, the enemy will resort to unconventional warfare. SG1 did it. now the LA does it. all the suicide terrorists in the middle east do it.

The LA has a larger army and has performed direct attacks against Earth. The terrorist argument doesn't fly. They're strong enough that they don't have to.

you have no idea about outer space, do you? in our solar system we have, depending on the exact definition of what the boundary of the solar system is, tens of thousands to millions of asteroids. and there are PLENTY of big ones. in fact, the moons of mars are two big asteroids which are smaller than the one in Fail Safe.

also i doubt you understand what happens if you go blast an asteroid with regular weapons. it shatters. and those fragements are your enemy. why the hell do you think all movies plant nukes inside an asteroid? that the only harmless way.

If you blast an asteroid further out, the remaining pieces don't keep going in the same direction. Space is big, and Earth is small by comparison. They'd fly right by. Anything big enough to hit Earth can be shot down to a safe size easily.

And it's not about needing to find them, it's about the LA, which has other things to do, taking the effort to move so many of them.

[tinerin]

Earth's nukes are likewise not going to just be stolen. People tend to look after them carefully.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...clear-blunders

[morbosfist]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...clear-blunders

Admittedly, incompetence is always a problem.

[garhkal]

Which is something the LA can use.. Heck look to season 4-6 of SG1.. how easily the trust got a Gou'ald from the russian SG program. Now make that some LA personnel with lots of money (gold, jewelry) getting their hands on russian made nukes..

[thekillman]

Doesn't mean he kept scores of data on his ships on every Earth operation, nor is it proof that his ships are in Alliance hands when it's the SGC that hunted him down.

steal it from the jaffa. why do i have to do all the thinking here!

They could scramble the fighters long before the Al'kesh could get close, and again you're inventing things that the LA or Goa'uld have never done. There's no bomb bay on an Al'kesh.

build a bomb bay. although i think the big glowy plasma orbs qualify more as bombs than as your regular plasma weapon. regardless, they release a pretty big bang. also, i doubt any fighter can be scrambled within a minute.

the scene would roughly this.

"sir, we detected a hyperspace window"
*alkesh is 10% of its journey already*
"what is it? "
*alkesh at 20%*
"ehm.. i don't know but it's fast."
*alkesh at 30%*
"send some fighters"
* alkesh at 40%*
*pilot runs to his 302*
* alkesh at 55%*
*engines start, the 302 is ready to take off*
* alkesh at 70%*
*F-302 is in the air and heading in the right direction*
* Al'kesh is close enough, fires plasma bolts. *
*F-302 is halfway*
*plasma bolts impact Area 51, flattening it*
*F-302 is nearly there*
*Alkesh rams itself into Area 51, causing a megaton-level explosion*

Which still does nothing to prove your assertion that the Goa'uld have thousands of these ships. The Alliance has never committed more than three ships to any one battle. Apophis could barely manage two. Anubis had somewhere around a dozen. THey do not and could not have thousands of ships if these piddly numbers are all they are willing to commit.

if Anubis had 30 ships and sent them all to earth, he would have instantly lost his domain. he had a surplus of 30 ships to send to battle. if he had left his territory unguarded, the other goauld would immediately have attacked him.

Name one time a Ha'tak has been piloted by computer, Thor's mind notwithstanding. Not even a computer could do those kind of maneuvers, and to even get there it'd have to get past the sheer firepower of the Hive.

so how do they pilot the ha'tak then? by pushing buttons to fire up maneuvering thrusters, control the main engines, hyperdrive, everything?

clearly not. those red orbs detect the mental imput and translate them to workeable data.

Are you joking? A 304 has never beaten a Hive before beam weapons. They've cheated with beaming tech, and they nuke-spammed one and didn't kill it. A Ha'tak has neither advantage. The only reason a Ha'tak does better against rail guns is because shields deflect the rounds. A Hive Ship just absorbs the hits with minimal damage. Size/power ratios mean nothing. A Ha'tak is an inferior vessel, no two ways about it. No matter how much you go on about size, that won't change.

one nuke destroyed so many systems, mckay had trouble finding something to blow up. a subsequent railgun barrage took out the remainder of the systems. had the Deadalus gone in, fully armed and fully repaired, it would've raped the hive. though the success of battle always depends on the presence of main cast members.

oh and cheating is still beating. it beat several hives, and stood up to many more.

They never said the beam weapons were disabled. It may not have had them at all.

if you had a spy, and that spy would tell you everything, and you were about to ambush an enemy ship with vastly powerful weapons, wouldn't the first thing you want to know be, where you have to hit the ship to disable their weapons. they're glass cannons, you just got to know where to hit them.

There's a difference between them having brains and plot-breaking competence. You're giving them the latter, using abilities way beyond the scope of this show to justify how they could be a threat.

take any method, add Cloaking(and there are several methods), or mimicking (can be stolen), or a strike team (if earth can do it, they can too), or brain washing, and you're done.

plot breaking? i'm being realistic here. the only reason earht isn't a smouldering rock, is because our enemies for the sake of plot are so dumb, they can't wipe their own ass, they barely know how to breathe, and how they invented their technology is so mindblowingly stunning, there must have been ascended who pity them. the goauld suck at tactics. justified. the Replicators too. the Ori not. they're supposedly superintelligent superhigher beings with a comprehension far beyond our own, abilities beyond ours, and what not. yet they still use utterly incompetent, foolish, stupid, braindead followers. even when any of my aforementioned technologies would easily keep them in line.


in fact, the Ori shouldn't have used human followers, they should've used replicators to destroy our galaxy, and then their own powers to seed life elsewhere.



kiva proved in one shot, that they are not incompetent braindead fools. Simeon proved it again. Gynn proved it. Varro proved it.


wake up. the LA of SGU are not the LA of SG1. all those comedic idiots were killed and raped by Odai Ventrell, who BTW canonically killed the king of fools. he wasn't incompetent, braindead, or an utter fool. in fact, i will be surprised if he isn't one of the leading Lucian Warlords.


furthermore, the LA has beam jamming tech, which they obviously stole, they know of the stones, they use brainwashing technology for more useful purposes. how much ****ing more evidence do you need that they are not incompetent brainless fools? saying that they didn't use a tactic before is kinda stupid, since they never actually launched any attack at earth.



but the most sensible tactic we had so far was that of a jaffa, who wanted to nuke earth to hell using cloaked tel'tak with nukes. and the attack was only prevented cause we got their location. the LA can easily copy that tactic and since we don't know their location, well it's not gonna be pretty.


you keep saying that Brainwashing is not the answer. well it is. to a lot of things. it's one of those convenient, useful technologies that's vastly underrated. it's lame as hell because it's a game breaker. but all you need to do is abduct some technician from a 304 when he's at home, having sex with his wife or so, in the middle of the night. come in with a cloaked cargoship. take him onboard, brainwash him, and the next morning he's a member of the LA. well actually it won't take THAT long. Baal brainwashed Teal'c pretty fast.

Kiva only knew because Rush didn't know the code. Daniel Jackson states that they've taken Goa'uld tech. They did not take the entire empire. The Jaffa did that.

and pierced through his lies.

Telford was the only spy they had.

that, my friend, is speculation.

There's a difference between playing dirty and giving the enemy what is essentially limitless competence and fourth-wall level planning.

i'm giving tons and tons of options here. varying levels of simplicity and plausibility.

they don't need limitless competence to nuke our 304's when they're unshielded. there's no need for limitless competence to abduct some technician during the night with a cloaked tel'tak, brainwash him in an hour and send him back to bed. there's no need for unlimited competence, to send a bunch of tel'tak filled with naquahdah to earth and having them detonate. yes, SG is that lame when you use your brains.

in fact, most of my pre-assault plans don't need to be done simultaneously. they can just nuke the Arctic and come back later to nuke Area 51. when it's gone, it's gone.

Allies, allies, random planet, dead planet. All of whom are not interstellar nor ever in the Alliance sphere of influence. Space is very big. Earth's nukes are likewise not going to just be stolen. People tend to look after them carefully.

they might be allies, but that doesn't mean earth is their only trading partner. you see, there's such a thing as curruption. brainwashing?

He was specifically dishonorable and a coward. The Alliance prefers brute force, per Ginn's testimony.

how is nuking someone to hell not brute force?

You cannot lock on to something you cannot detect.

you can if there's some sort of signal. like, one of those really handy subcatateous or whatever transmitters SG teams use. a goauld ball. stuff like that.

So SGU is going to have Earth die by the suddenly ridiculously overpowered LA to be different? No.

Realism says yes. overpowered? no. this is what happens when you combine any of the gazillion superdeadly technologies SG1 encountered with competence. a tel'tac with a cloak is sufficient to wipe out all life on earth. the hyperdrive itself is sufficient too. naquahdah alone is sufficient.


my plot prediction: highly probable that via some lame way, we discover the location of the attack and just kill the *******s. earth's plot shields are stronger than any force in the universe. even if it were to fly DIRECTLY into a black hole, earth would survive on it's plot shields. and if those are down, it's hero shield will still defend it from the universe collapsing onto itself.

There's no such thing. McKay used a lot of tricks on a space station with a dialling computer to make that work. The rest is, I must reiterate, just inventing abilities. Bribing is outright laughable.

with money, yes. how about a planet of your own?

second of all, his "tricks" boil down to programming the gate not to take precedence. that can be arranged.

The nukes were set on a short timer, and rings always accept incoming matter.

short timer it is. set it to such a short timer, there is no time to ring it back up.

or just shoot your own rings with a zat. destroy them. self destruct the ship i dont care.

The LA are not from the Middle East.

my fingers are getting tired of typing brainwashing.

Which you assume is gone. You cannot prove it.

you can not prove it's still there.

Brainwashing isn't that fast, per Teal'c when Ba'al tried it.

it didn't even work on tealc. he's been what, brainwashed a dozen times?

Which multiple people are monitoring at all times.

Ethon. all i'm gonna say

Talking doesn't defeat security measures. Telford does not have that kind of access.

speech = data

Every invasion and siege attempt has failed. They wouldn't get very far.

figure out where a 304 is going. prepare 5 ha'tak, and a bunch of space mines with big nukes. fire the second the ship drops out. one 304 less to worry about.


destroy one via overloading a mark I.

But does not fit with the mindset or general attitude of the LA. They use stolen Goa'uld tech. "Street gangs with spaceships," as Rush says. They aren't a people of subtlety.

that's generalising. not every LA person is incompetent, or, as you put it, "has that mindset".

oh and "stolen goauld tech" includes tel'tak, caches of naquahdah, a few hundred ha'tak, some of those nifty Ark Nukes, brainwashing, copious amounts of cloaking devices, and many other of those useful technologies.

Admittedly, incompetence is always a problem.

BP, mineworkers (pick a country), oil companies in general, the government, the mayor, CEO's, teachers, etc etc etc.

[thekillman]

Now make that some LA personnel with lots of money (gold, jewelry) getting their hands on russian made nukes..

there are plenty of russian nuclear submarines rusting away on the bottom of the sea. plenty of nuclear fuel just screaming to be used for nukes

[tinerin]

Making nuclear weapons actually isn't incredibly difficult. The only real bottleneck is obtaining weapons grade nuclear material since it doesn't occur naturally, its difficult and incredibly expensive to produce using current methods and gets monitored really carefully by the UN and every country who is able to manufacture it. But I'd be willing to be that anyone able to manufacture weapons grade naquadah or create plasma weapons or hyperdrive engines could easily create a nuclear weapon if they really wanted to.

But seriously, the LA have access to Asgard beaming tech. Unless the SGC installs the jamming devices everywhere nuclear weapons are stored (inluding North Korea), there's no way we could stop the LA from stealing at least a few of our nukes.

[morbosfist]

steal it from the jaffa. why do i have to do all the thinking here!

Yeah, because the Jaffa would surely just let their ships be stolen.

build a bomb bay. although i think the big glowy plasma orbs qualify more as bombs than as your regular plasma weapon. regardless, they release a pretty big bang. also, i doubt any fighter can be scrambled within a minute.

They can be scrambled in enough time to shoot down an Al'kesh on a bombing run. You forget, when Teal'c did that close-range hyperspace exit, he very nearly crashed. You try that with an Al'kesh, you aren't going to recover. Changing your scenario to suicide bombers again comes to the fact that the LA doesn't do that.

if Anubis had 30 ships and sent them all to earth, he would have instantly lost his domain. he had a surplus of 30 ships to send to battle. if he had left his territory unguarded, the other goauld would immediately have attacked him.

Anubis had more than thirty ships, but that isn't proof there are thousands of ships. One does not equal the other.

so how do they pilot the ha'tak then? by pushing buttons to fire up maneuvering thrusters, control the main engines, hyperdrive, everything?

clearly not. those red orbs detect the mental imput and translate them to workeable data.

Nevertheless, they are flown by living pilots and do not have an apparent automatic pilot unless specifically designed as such.

one nuke destroyed so many systems, mckay had trouble finding something to blow up. a subsequent railgun barrage took out the remainder of the systems. had the Deadalus gone in, fully armed and fully repaired, it would've raped the hive. though the success of battle always depends on the presence of main cast members.

You're obviously not remembering that battle right. The Daedelus went in, launched every single nuke just to score a single hit, then unloaded on the dart bays with the intention of causing secondary explosions. Nothing about this battle could be easily replicated. It was luck.

oh and cheating is still beating. it beat several hives, and stood up to many more.

The cheating no longer works, so it doesn't count.

if you had a spy, and that spy would tell you everything, and you were about to ambush an enemy ship with vastly powerful weapons, wouldn't the first thing you want to know be, where you have to hit the ship to disable their weapons. they're glass cannons, you just got to know where to hit them.

They never mentions the weapons being offline, hence the LA didn't shoot them offline.

take any method, add Cloaking(and there are several methods), or mimicking (can be stolen), or a strike team (if earth can do it, they can too), or brain washing, and you're done.

Goa'uld cloaking only works for Tel'taks and Al'kesh, mimicking is technology only bounty hunters have been shown to use, and brainwashing only works if you have the opportunity to catch people.

plot breaking? i'm being realistic here. the only reason earht isn't a smouldering rock, is because our enemies for the sake of plot are so dumb, they can't wipe their own ass, they barely know how to breathe, and how they invented their technology is so mindblowingly stunning, there must have been ascended who pity them. the goauld suck at tactics. justified. the Replicators too. the Ori not. they're supposedly superintelligent superhigher beings with a comprehension far beyond our own, abilities beyond ours, and what not. yet they still use utterly incompetent, foolish, stupid, braindead followers. even when any of my aforementioned technologies would easily keep them in line.

You're not being realistic, you're going outside the scope of the show. You've made a situation where the enemy is smart as you think they should be, not as they are.

kiva proved in one shot, that they are not incompetent braindead fools. Simeon proved it again. Gynn proved it. Varro proved it.

They're good soldiers, doesn't mean they can wage a large-scale war.

wake up. the LA of SGU are not the LA of SG1. all those comedic idiots were killed and raped by Odai Ventrell, who BTW canonically killed the king of fools. he wasn't incompetent, braindead, or an utter fool. in fact, i will be surprised if he isn't one of the leading Lucian Warlords.

Ventrell killed one guy, and though he may have been incompetent, his seconds, weren't much better.

furthermore, the LA has beam jamming tech, which they obviously stole, they know of the stones, they use brainwashing technology for more useful purposes. how much ****ing more evidence do you need that they are not incompetent brainless fools? saying that they didn't use a tactic before is kinda stupid, since they never actually launched any attack at earth.

Again, there is a difference between competence and what you're proposing. You're suggesting that they not only be competent, but be so inventive as to literally break the entire story.

but the most sensible tactic we had so far was that of a jaffa, who wanted to nuke earth to hell using cloaked tel'tak with nukes. and the attack was only prevented cause we got their location. the LA can easily copy that tactic and since we don't know their location, well it's not gonna be pretty.

This is the only realistic attack besides a large-scale bombing they could pull, and I seriously doubt they'd do it because it's too cheap for the writers to let it happen.

you keep saying that Brainwashing is not the answer. well it is. to a lot of things. it's one of those convenient, useful technologies that's vastly underrated. it's lame as hell because it's a game breaker. but all you need to do is abduct some technician from a 304 when he's at home, having sex with his wife or so, in the middle of the night. come in with a cloaked cargoship. take him onboard, brainwash him, and the next morning he's a member of the LA. well actually it won't take THAT long. Baal brainwashed Teal'c pretty fast.

He had to kidnap Teal'c and have an army hold off SG-1. He had Teal'c long enough for his tretonin to wear off. That isn't quick brainwashing. You also can't just park a Tel'tak over some residential neighborhood and kidnap someone. Someone would see it, report it, then Homeworld Command would be all over the scene.

and pierced through his lies.

She pierced through his lies because she knew he was a fraud from the start. Lies don't work when the premise of them is flawed.

that, my friend, is speculation.

AS is your claim that they must have more when Telford is all they've shown. It's a two-way street.

i'm giving tons and tons of options here. varying levels of simplicity and plausibility.

they don't need limitless competence to nuke our 304's when they're unshielded. there's no need for limitless competence to abduct some technician during the night with a cloaked tel'tak, brainwash him in an hour and send him back to bed. there's no need for unlimited competence, to send a bunch of tel'tak filled with naquahdah to earth and having them detonate. yes, SG is that lame when you use your brains.

in fact, most of my pre-assault plans don't need to be done simultaneously. they can just nuke the Arctic and come back later to nuke Area 51. when it's gone, it's gone.

And all of this hinges on your belief that the LA, who use pretty much nothing but Goa'uld technology, are suddenly going to join the Tau'ri in their love of nukes.

they might be allies, but that doesn't mean earth is their only trading partner. you see, there's such a thing as curruption. brainwashing?

Half these societies never even used their Stargate. So they're suddenly going to be finding the LA with a device they can barely use?

how is nuking someone to hell not brute force?

It isn't because they don't use nukes.

you can if there's some sort of signal. like, one of those really handy subcatateous or whatever transmitters SG teams use. a goauld ball. stuff like that.

"Subcutaneous". The transmitters might work, but Atlantis can detect them. Even the SGC could detect such a signal. Transmitters also only allow for beaming in that exact spot.

Realism says yes. overpowered? no. this is what happens when you combine any of the gazillion superdeadly technologies SG1 encountered with competence. a tel'tac with a cloak is sufficient to wipe out all life on earth. the hyperdrive itself is sufficient too. naquahdah alone is sufficient.

Which is story-breaking power, and why it won't happen. It would work in real-life, not here.

my plot prediction: highly probable that via some lame way, we discover the location of the attack and just kill the *******s. earth's plot shields are stronger than any force in the universe. even if it were to fly DIRECTLY into a black hole, earth would survive on it's plot shields. and if those are down, it's hero shield will still defend it from the universe collapsing onto itself.

Or, more likely, they'll just fend off the attack.

with money, yes. how about a planet of your own?

second of all, his "tricks" boil down to programming the gate not to take precedence. that can be arranged.

So they're going to reprogram Atlantis' gate? No.

short timer it is. set it to such a short timer, there is no time to ring it back up.

or just shoot your own rings with a zat. destroy them. self destruct the ship i dont care.

And waste a good ship?

my fingers are getting tired of typing brainwashing.

Then stop falling back on it as an excuse.

you can not prove it's still there.

Double-edged sword again.

it didn't even work on tealc. he's been what, brainwashed a dozen times?

The point is, it took that long and would have for most anyone else.

Ethon. all i'm gonna say

Which is relevant how, exactly? They didn't steal anything in "Ethon".

speech = data

Speech is speech. You can't talk your way through passwords.

figure out where a 304 is going. prepare 5 ha'tak, and a bunch of space mines with big nukes. fire the second the ship drops out. one 304 less to worry about.

destroy one via overloading a mark I.

Again with the nukes. It only worked the first time because they were ambushing an inferior vessel and had a good lure.

that's generalising. not every LA person is incompetent, or, as you put it, "has that mindset".

oh and "stolen goauld tech" includes tel'tak, caches of naquahdah, a few hundred ha'tak, some of those nifty Ark Nukes, brainwashing, copious amounts of cloaking devices, and many other of those useful technologies.

Again, you're making up their fleet numbers. They've never shown to have hundreds of Ha'taks. They won't even field more than three at a time.

But seriously, the LA have access to Asgard beaming tech. Unless the SGC installs the jamming devices everywhere nuclear weapons are stored (inluding North Korea), there's no way we could stop the LA from stealing at least a few of our nukes.

The LA doesn't have Asgard beaming tech that we know of. Asgard sensors are also needed to target specific locations.

[thekillman]

Yeah, because the Jaffa would surely just let their ships be stolen.

and the goauld just let their ha'tak blow by SG1

They can be scrambled in enough time to shoot down an Al'kesh on a bombing run. You forget, when Teal'c did that close-range hyperspace exit, he very nearly crashed. You try that with an Al'kesh, you aren't going to recover. Changing your scenario to suicide bombers again comes to the fact that the LA doesn't do that.

tactics change.

The cheating no longer works, so it doesn't count.

because they dropped the issue after 2 episodes

They never mentions the weapons being offline, hence the LA didn't shoot them offline.

they never mentioned the APBW's not being present, so they were present.

Goa'uld cloaking only works for Tel'taks and Al'kesh, mimicking is technology only bounty hunters have been shown to use, and brainwashing only works if you have the opportunity to catch people.

personal cloaks. bounty hunters can be captured and brainwashed.

This is the only realistic attack besides a large-scale bombing they could pull, and I seriously doubt they'd do it because it's too cheap for the writers to let it happen.

it's the reason earth isn't a smouldering crater since SG1 s1ep1

You also can't just park a Tel'tak over some residential neighborhood and kidnap someone. Someone would see it, report it, then Homeworld Command would be all over the scene.

please! that's what the cloaking generator installed on every single tel'tak is for!

Which is story-breaking power, and why it won't happen. It would work in real-life, not here.

but that's not the point of this thread. the OP did not believe the LA could attack or defeat earth.

i've shown they can. you're using "it's a story" as an escape route. that's admitting defeat. the LA can defeat earth. it's just that the infinitely powerful plot and hero shields surrounding earth are what stops it.

The LA doesn't have Asgard beaming tech that we know of. Asgard sensors are also needed to target specific locations.

i have the feeling this is going in a loop. what the hell do you think i mentioned Baal's hatak. those have beam tech. and those can be stolen