9th Chevron = TIME AND DISTANCE (SPACE TIME)

[StarCapnRa]

I love it. The possibilities are endless with this one.

But I'm sure there will be those who'll cry foul over how "unoriginal" it was. A shame, really.

Naaaaah. Given the Sci Fi Channel's cheapness, there will be many other reasons to lament the show's unoriginality.

(Unless they surprise all of us.)
(Which is highly unlikely.)

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

All constellations used on a Milky Way DHD are 100% in Milky Way! All constellations used on a Pegasus DHD are 100% in Pegasus. Do you realize how astronomically large the distances involved are? The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across and yet it is still difficult to distinguish individual distant stars in Milky Way. Most visible stars are within a few hundred light years, if that far. Pegasus is 3,000,000 light years away: there is no way that any Milky Way constellation is visible in Pegasus. As for Pegasus constellations in the Milky Way, Pegasus itself is barely visible, let alone any constellations that may be inside it.

I realize this may stray from the main topic but just to clarify, the constellations we see in our night sky, which also represent symbols on the MW gates, are two dimensional patterns and therefore only belong to Earth's sky, not to the Milky Way. Move to another part of our galaxy, even nearby, the stars change position in relation to each other. Even if you had a telescope in Pegasus that was powerful enough to discern individual stars in MW, and forgetting for a moment stellar drift plus the fact that you would be viewing the Milky Way as it was 3 million years ago, you would not see any constellations that we recognize here. Using constellations as gate symbols was always a series' plothole.

[Quadhelix]

I realize this may stray from the main topic but just to clarify, the constellations we see in our night sky, which also represent symbols on the MW gates, are two dimensional patterns and therefore only belong to Earth's sky, not to the Milky Way. Move to another part of our galaxy, even nearby, they change position in relation to each other. Even if you had a telescope in Pegasus that was powerful enough to discern individual stars in MW, and forgetting for a moment that you would be viewing the Milky Way as it was 3 million years ago, you would not see any constellations that we recognize here.

Actually, Constellations are three dimensional patterns. Yes, they would not be recognizable if viewed from another angle, but the same stars would be present.

Nevertheless, your point is a good one.

[toby1kanobi]

Actually, neither Milky Way nor Pegasus 'Gates can dial a glyph multiple times: when a glyph is encoded in the DHD, that glyph "lights up," and is presumably unavailable.



This is also not correct: Pegasus DHDs all have the same 36 symbols on them. Thus, the Pegasus 'Gates are limited to 36 symbols.



All constellations used on a Milky Way DHD are 100% in Milky Way! All constellations used on a Pegasus DHD are 100% in Pegasus. Do you realize how astronomically large the distances involved are? The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across and yet it is still difficult to distinguish individual distant stars in Milky Way. Most visible stars are within a few hundred light years, if that far. Pegasus is 3,000,000 light years away: there is no way that any Milky Way constellation is visible in Pegasus. As for Pegasus constellations in the Milky Way, Pegasus itself is barely visible, let alone any constellations that may be inside it.

your right, i cant believe i forgot the dhd locks out that glpph once it has been used. although dhds can and have been overridden in the past so it is theoreticaly possible to dial the same glyph several times manually, i wonder what would happen (yes i know most likely nothing, what i want to hear are fantasticle ideas of what might happen, ie if you could imagine something cool happpening what eould it be)

harkening back to the destiny visiting gates, from the synopsys the destiny visits gates in many different glaxies, so a dhd would be useless unless it has thousands of keys, ide like to see a new type on the ship, im thinking something like a touch screen interface that is not using addressed as we are used to them but has starmaps and planets listed. a bit like astrometrics in startrek voyager. i think itd look cool. or better yet something like the stella desplay the drone chair on proclorushteonas projected above o'neill and you just point to where you wanna gate. the latter is more likely as we have seen the tech before

[Colonel Forte]

Using constellations as gate symbols was always a series' plothole.

If we assume that the constellation glyphs actually represent constellations and not simply a pictographic way to represent a point in space (that is not a planet), you're right, it's a huge plothole. Someone mentioned earlier that this might be the case and I forgot to mention it. So, based on that, my concept of an 8th glyph "shifting" the set of glyphs to another galaxy (or gate system) still works because a simple point in space time is not the same as a constellation visible from earth (the material, not the planet). Therefore, some points could still be shared by gate systems in other galaxies, the glyph on the gate might just look different.

Actually, Constellations are three dimensional patterns. Yes, they would not be recognizable if viewed from another angle, but the same stars would be present.

No, a constellation is a two-dimensional view, only visible from Earth. Because stars exist in three-dimensional space the constellation only works from the planet on which it was recorded, making it by nature, two-dimensional.

[toby1kanobi]

No, a constellation is a two-dimensional view, only visible from Earth. Because stars exist in three-dimensional space the constellation only works from the planet on which it was recorded, making it by nature, two-dimensional.

thats what he means, hes saying that a constilation is made up of stars that are not all nicely lined up as we see them (some 100 of lightyears away) from eachother. a constilation is indeed a 2d conseption but the actual objects involves are in 3d space

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

If we assume that the constellation glyphs actually represent constellations and not simply a pictographic way to represent a point in space (that is not a planet), you're right, it's a huge plothole. Someone mentioned earlier that this might be the case and I forgot to mention it. <snip>

And perhaps the pictographic explanation is the best way to plug up the plot hole. Well, perhaps not quite. The other gaping plothole is that the stargate system is some 50 million years old (at least the Antarctic gate) and the symbols on it represent constellations (or pictographs of constellations) that won't exist for another 50 million years. (What a party pooper I am.)

[Quadhelix]

No, a constellation is a two-dimensional view, only visible from Earth. Because stars exist in three-dimensional space the constellation only works from the planet on which it was recorded, making it by nature, two-dimensional.

Are you saying that, if I went to another planet, Alpha Centauri would disappear because it is in the Centaurus constellation? Would Tau Ceti disappear because it is in the Cetus constellation? What if I went to Tau Ceti; would the star that I was orbiting vanish except when I was on the Earthward side of the orbit?

My point is that constellations are three-dimensional groups of stars. The reason why those particular stars were chosen is only obvious from the general vicinity of Earth, but they are still present when viewed from another angle.

The other gaping plothole is that the stargate system is some 50 million years old (at least the Antarctic gate) and the symbols on it represent constellations (or pictographs of constellations) that won't exist for another 50 million years.

How quickly do constellations change?

[thekillman]

Are you saying that, if I went to another planet, Alpha Centauri would disappear because it is in the Centaurus constellation? Would Tau Ceti disappear because it is in the Cetus constellation? What if I went to Tau Ceti; would the star that I was orbiting vanish except when I was on the Earthward side of the orbit?

My point is that constellations are three-dimensional groups of stars. The reason why those particular stars were chosen is only obvious from the general vicinity of Earth, but they are still present when viewed from another angle.

a constellation is a group of stars forming a symbol. once you look from annother place, the stars are still there, but the constellation isnt: the same stars represent something very different

[Quadhelix]

a constellation is a group of stars forming a symbol. once you look from annother place, the stars are still there, but the constellation isnt: the same stars represent something very different

Another way of looking at is that the constellation looks (radically) different, but is still there.

Of course, is there even a "right" answer to this issue?

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

Are you saying that, if I went to another planet, Alpha Centauri would disappear because it is in the Centaurus constellation? Would Tau Ceti disappear because it is in the Cetus constellation? What if I went to Tau Ceti; would the star that I was orbiting vanish except when I was on the Earthward side of the orbit?

My point is that constellations are three-dimensional groups of stars. The reason why those particular stars were chosen is only obvious from the general vicinity of Earth, but they are still present when viewed from another angle.

No the stars would be there, but, for the most part, they likely would no longer be part of the same constellations. From each and every solar system in the universe, you'd have to draw a whole new map of constellations.

How quickly do constellations change?

Change in constellations would be noticeable (to anyone living that long) over tens of thousands of years. That long ago some constellations might still be recognizable but not identical to what we see today. In 14 thousand years Vega will be the north star. Go back a million years (probably less), most of the stars you know may be there, but nothing would be even remotely recognizable as the constellations we know today. Again you'd have to map out a whole different set of constellations.

Another way of looking at is that the constellation looks (radically) different, but is still there.

Not necessarily, and in fact probably not. If you take two stars in a constellation, star A may be 20 light years from earth. Star B may be 500 light years away. (B shines much brighter than A so we can't tell their distances from us and so in our minds we may assume they're equally distant when in fact they're not.) If we move to another region of space, say 26 light years to a planet of the star Vega and then look up into the sky, then star A and B will have moved drastically in relation to each other and therefore each will become part of a totally different constellation.

The eight stars that make up the Big Dipper (part of the constellation Ursa Major) all range in distance from 78 to 124 light years. Move to Vega again to observe, same result as above. New constellations.

On the other hand take the three stars the make up the belt of the constellation Orion. (Alnitak, Alnilam & Mintaka) Amazingly all three are 1500 light years from us. If we were to travel to Vega again to view them, these three might still be a part of the same constellation, but they would, of course, be no longer perfectly aligned as a belt.

Of course, is there even a "right" answer to this issue?

Well, yes, understanding what constellations are is the right answer. Constellations don't represent three-dimensional sectors of space and therefore would be useless for the purposes of navigation by a starship. Nor could they represent co-ordinates on a stargate situated on any planet in the galaxy other than our own. Among other things constellations help astronomers catalog stars and nebulae and galaxies, but again only as we see them from Earth. They can also be used in observational astronomy assisting the average lay person or amateur, (say using the naked eye or binoculars) in locating specific celestial objects in our night sky. If your looking for the Horsehead Nebula and know it's in the constellation Orion, (and your familiar with constellations or have a reference guide) then it's easier to find. And of course constellations were aid to sailors navigating the oceans, or to caravans crossing the desert.

In a way the 1994 Stargate movie got it almost right when they gave the gate on Abydos different constellation symbols. Amost I say, because stellar drift after 10 thousand years would have changed those as well.

[Colonel Forte]

Doc PJ got to it before I could, but remember in the show (after they adapted the planet from being in another galaxy to being in our galaxy) they said that the reason stellar drift didn't affect the gate address found with the gate was because it was close enough to earth.

[Quadhelix]

No the stars would be there, but, for the most part, they likely would no longer be part of the same constellations.

No: the old constellations would no longer be recognizable, and each would indeed be smeared across the sky like some sort of cosmic barf,

From each and every solar system in the universe, you'd have to draw a whole new map of constellations.

That, on the other hand, I accept whole-heartedly.

In 14 thousand years Vega will be the north star.

Actually, that is due to precession of Earth's rotation (here), not stellar drift.

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

No: the old constellations would no longer be recognizable, and each would indeed be smeared across the sky like some sort of cosmic barf,

Uh. . .yessss. . . I believe that's what I said, although I don't know if I'd use the term "smear".

Actually, that is due to precession of Earth's rotation (here), not stellar drift.

That is true, I had forgotten that. However, stellar drift, or Proper Motion, also plays a role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_Star

Pole stars change over time because stars exhibit a slow continuous drift with respect to the Earth's axis. The primary reason for this is the precession of the Earth's rotational axis that causes its orientation to change over time. If the stars were fixed in space, precession would cause the celestial poles to trace out imaginary circles on the celestial sphere approximately once every 26,000 years, passing close to different stars at different times. However, the stars themselves exhibit motion relative to each other, and this so-called proper motion is another cause of the apparent drift of a pole star.

[Pazuzu]

the speculations about the stargate's nin'th chevron are all over the forum. there have been a million speculations and thoughts about this thing.

from time traveling to transdimensional wathever teleporation to the first thing in history that caused a time loop in wich the ancients got their healing powers to suport gatetravel to other universes in wich the ori had no power and the goa'uld never existed and the humans created the first ancients using their own methods of cloning the asgards and combining them with replicators.....

I just can't believe that TPTB are actually saying that the mistery has been solved!!!!! I'm expecting furlings now, and not those ewoks, but real furlins wich I can touch with my own hands furlings
the ninth chevron has been the holy grail of the show. I do hope that they come up with something spectacular. I've been waiting 10 years to find out it's use