Daniel's "angst?" (spoilers, of course)

[DeltaFlyer]

I totally agree with you! Daniel hardly reacted to Jack's death at all! And then it was almost "oh, gee, losing my leg, no big deal." What a waste. I understand MS wasn't available much for filming, but they could have done much better. If anybody could point me to some fanfic to plug this hole, I'd love to read it! Feel like being left hungry. Love Daniel angst....

That said, I did like most of the movie. Loved Q'tesh. Loved Teal'c. However, I thought the film was too Cam centric. Back to the season 9 scenario, whenever it's time for a hero, cue Cam! Still irks me everytime he "orders" Sam - hated that they took her command away from her. And couldn't they have let Jack kill Ba'al just once??

Off to find Daniel angst fic....

Ooo if you find any, point me in the right direction *bats eyelashes*

Re MS not being available, he was only actually unavailable to go to the arctic, he was there for everything esle.

The thing is, we were promised loads of angst - and got hardly any, and now I read that one of the sweetest of Daniel's scenes - the bookstore one is to be cut from the TV version - does that mean that the scene with him phoning his alt self is to be cut too - otherwise it'll seem a bit random and non-sequiterish. Sheesh, and all for the sake of 2 mins of extra ads and SKY HD promos and ads for football (Soccer for you guys in the States)

I just wanted to see an actual emotional reaction to what Daniel went through - yes, we all (Daniel fans especially) know that he's an incredibly strong person, and is better at overcoming personal loss and tragedy than most, but, by not showing the trauma of his amputation, seeing his best friend in the entire Universe killed right before his eyes - IMHO takes impact away from showing his true strength of character in dealing and coming to terms with such things - hey, if someone is unaffected by something in the first place, then dealing with it becomes small potatoes.

No doubt I'm treading on thin ice here, but TPTB do seem to have this aversion to showing true emotion and how tragedies really affect people. They used to show it in the old days, and I'm guessing that's one of the things that hooked a lot of people on to the show, I know it was for me. That's what H/C is about and that's whatthe fans of the characters love to see - their favourite going through hell, being comforted and supported by the people they are closest too and winning the emotional battle despite the odds. We get barely a pale shadow of that anymore.

The greater a person feels a tragedy, the greater their strength of character in dealing with it. We love our heros to be shown as strong characters, but, to be that, they have to endure suffering and all that character building stuff as well, and feel it, not just have it brushed under the proverbial rug. The thing is, we know the writers can do better than this - Abyss is one example - the same writer if I'm correct.

So, once again, we have to assume that these matters have been dealt with off-screen and will have to rely on FF to satisfy our need for full rounded characterisation.

Having said that, let me reiterate that I did enjoy the movie for the most part. But IMHO it lacked a certain depth.

[amconway]

You make your point eloquently. While my preferences in stargate differ, in many ways I am probably closer to your point of view than the 'all space battles all the time' school of thought. Abyss went a bit too far for my personal taste, however (although it was great having Daniel there). I find Meridian completely unwatchable. That doesn't mean I thought it was bad - to the contrary - but it was pretty brutal, and having seen it twice, I decided to never watch it again. I'm more of a enemy mine, forever in a day, lifeboat kind of person. But that's beside the point.
I had a thought about the type of emotion they showed and the structure of the movie, and it occured to me that the plot probably dictated how much emotion was shown, and by whom. Sam and Daniel both die relatively soon after the 'year alone' part. I'm not sure how it would have flown if you see them struggle more painfully then die. Might have come off too darn grim. This would also explain why they spent a little more time with Cam. He's not going to die. They can show us more of his struggle. Also, they needed to emphasize how important family is to Cam. He will lose all family who accept him as such - He will also save his family, although they can never know.

[Khentkawes]

The greater a person feels a tragedy, the greater their strength of character in dealing with it. We love our heros to be shown as strong characters, but, to be that, they have to endure suffering and all that character building stuff as well, and feel it, not just have it brushed under the proverbial rug. The thing is, we know the writers can do better than this - Abyss is one example - the same writer if I'm correct.

Yep, Abyss was also a BW script. I think BW (and RCC) pretty much always try to put in as much character development as they can, but sometimes it works beautifully (Abyss), and sometimes it doesn't exactly. In this case, I think the time constraints and fast paced plot don't really leave a chance for in-depth character development here.

I would probably be complaining more if our characters remembered the events of the altered timeline. Then I would say that the emotional repercussions definitely should have been dealt with. But since they don't remember, there's not much point. Which is one of my problems with time travel and alternate realities in general. It makes the ending feel a bit flat because no one remembers what happened.

Abyss went a bit too far for my personal taste, however (although it was great having Daniel there). I find Meridian completely unwatchable. That doesn't mean I thought it was bad - to the contrary - but it was pretty brutal, and having seen it twice, I decided to never watch it again. I'm more of a enemy mine, forever in a day, lifeboat kind of person. But that's beside the point.

I love Abyss and Meridian. But on the other hand, I always know that I'm in for an emotional ride when I watch them, so I could see where it might go too far for some people. (I also love the other episodes you mention, with the exception of some stupidity in Enemy Mine).

Actually, Merdian gets me angry every time I watch it, but I love episodes that can get an emotional reaction out of my even when I've seen them multiple times before. Which is also why I love the scene when Daniel calls himself in Continuum. I always sit there and go "awwww" when he tells his other self "you've got to have more faith in yourself, Dr. Jackson." Just a wonderful line and MS's delivery was perfect. One of the best moments in the movie.

Sam and Daniel both die relatively soon after the 'year alone' part. I'm not sure how it would have flown if you see them struggle more painfully then die. Might have come off too darn grim. This would also explain why they spent a little more time with Cam. He's not going to die. They can show us more of his struggle. Also, they needed to emphasize how important family is to Cam. He will lose all family who accept him as such - He will also save his family, although they can never know.

Ah, that's a really good theory! I like your point about Cam, although I don't think he received that much more attention than the others. It felt pretty balanced to me (well I guess Sam got a bit less attention than the guys). Cam does have a more take charge attitude throughout the movie, which I really enjoyed. And it made the ending seem more natural.

Personally, I'm hoping that in future movies they won't be so limited in their shooting/screen time, so that we can sneak in some more character development scenes in between the action. What can I say, I'm being optimistic about the prospect of future movies.

[amconway]

Correction! I didn't mean Enemy Mine (which I didn't dislike, although some do), I meant The First Ones....Enemy Mine could have been quite good, but I found the change in actor very disconcerting ( the original actor was doing a play at Stratford). I was also distracted by Chaka's new upright posture and excellent tailor.
Anyhoo! I really liked The First Ones... I was trying to type and get ready for work at the same time. It didn't work that well.

[Margaret]

As for the angst level... I actually thought it was pretty strong angst. Subtle, but strong. From the moment Landry accuses our three misplaced heroes of arrogance, there's a sense melancholy that presides over the characters. They're all isolated and alone, but they accept their situation to some extent. I found those scenes incredibly sad, but it's almost a quiet, moody type of angst. You feel for all three of them because they have lost everything. But at the same time, I think you have to admire the fact that they aren't sitting there feeling sorry for themselves. They're just trying to cope as best they can.

Daniel's injury does mean that he should have a more difficult time coping, but again, I think he does struggle with his injury, he just doesn't complain about it or talk about his struggles. After all, he said from the beginning that losing his leg was better than the cold death he'd expected. So even in the beginning, he tries to put a positive spin on the situation. Daniel did seem a little more depressed than Sam or Cam, IMO (which made his initial excitement over his alternate's book all the more enjoyable), and then he turns a little bit bitter later on, for example, in the "I told you so" scene. He also seems more withdrawn and depressed after they are rescued, when they are questioned, and when they talk with Landry.

But overall, I think they went for the subtle approach in regards to the angst. And I think MS does subtle very well. If they had focused too much on the angst it would have become exaggerated and out of character.

I wonder if he was thinking that this is a replay of Politics?

You know -- the staff wound should have been evidence in itself that Daniel was not imagining things.

Similarly, finding the three of them in the Artic should have been proof in itself that all was not well.

And remember in Serpent's Lair how depressed Daniel got when he was blinded by the shock grenade? He was just sure that his vision of Earth's conquest was going to take place while he was helpless to do anything about it.

Daniel cares deeply about the sufferings of others, perhaps more deeply than he cares for himself. It makes him angry and frustrated to see Earth facing "slavery and death" and not be able to help them or het them to help themselves.

All the more poignant when he reaches out to the one person in this timeline who might listen -- only to be met with a torrent of angst and despair on the other end. "You must have more faith in yourself, Dr. Jackson!"

I think the 'interlude' did a good job of conveying the hard grind of long, lonely days for the three stranded travellers. Mitchell, bereft of family; Sam, a brilliant scientist hemmed in by the monotony of everyday tasks; Daniel, with the added burdened of a physical injury that makes even the simplest act more difficult.

I agree with those who think he must have approached rehab with grim resolve. When the time came, he was ready to fight. He could run and handle a gun. That's a pretty impressive accomplishment.

[Pic]

Daniel has never focused on his personal difficulties, except where others were involved. That goes right back to the first time he stepped in front of a staff weapon to save Jack. It doesn't strike me as out of character at all.
Instead of brooding on his own personal loss, he was on the phone with his alternate, trying to help him believe in his work. This strikes me as classic Daniel behavior. With that phone call, he can both help someone else and potentially save the world. At that point, the only thing that can prevent eventual invasion is proof found by his alternate, and made public. He's the type who feels tremendous sorrow for those he can't help, but really doesn't get all angsty about himself. The closest he ever came to that was when he was dying of radiation poisoning, and he wasn't very bitter about that, either.

Very well said. I think Daniel was completely in character ~ even when doped up on the submarine.

I really liked how he tried to bolster his "other"-self-esteem.

[Khentkawes]

And remember in Serpent's Lair how depressed Daniel got when he was blinded by the shock grenade? He was just sure that his vision of Earth's conquest was going to take place while he was helpless to do anything about it.

Daniel cares deeply about the sufferings of others, perhaps more deeply than he cares for himself. It makes him angry and frustrated to see Earth facing "slavery and death" and not be able to help them or het them to help themselves.

All the more poignant when he reaches out to the one person in this timeline who might listen -- only to be met with a torrent of angst and despair on the other end. "You must have more faith in yourself, Dr. Jackson!"

I hadn't made the connection with Serpant's Lair, but I really like it. It is a very similar situation, and he reacts in a similar, if slightly more subdued, way.

And yes, he is upset about what will happen to Earth in this timeline, but I think he's even more upset about what has happened to the galaxy as a whole. Think of how many people would still be enslaved by the Goa'uld (including, Teal'c, Vala, and the people of Abydos). I doubt that Daniel has forgotten about any of those galactic consequences of the altered timeline.

I think the conversation with his "alternate" shows how Daniel has grown in some ways. He's much more confident. From what we know, the alternate Daniel seems bitter, disillusioned, and despairing. I think Margaret's description is accurate. The alternate Daniel seems more consumed by "angst and despair" in a way that our Daniel isn't. Yes, our Daniel is angry, frustrated, lonely, and perhaps even bitter about his circumstances. But he doesn't succumb to despair. Daniel has never given up easily, but I think his time with SG-1 has made him stronger and more determined than before, which accounts for the difference between the way he deals with his problems and the way his alternate handles his life.

I think Daniel was completely in character ~ even when doped up on the submarine.

I really liked how he tried to bolster his "other"-self-esteem.

Personally, I think Daniel's pretty adorable when he's doped up.

[amconway]

And yes, he is upset about what will happen to Earth in this timeline, but I think he's even more upset about what has happened to the galaxy as a whole. Think of how many people would still be enslaved by the Goa'uld (including, Teal'c, Vala, and the people of Abydos). I doubt that Daniel has forgotten about any of those galactic consequences of the altered timeline.

I was so focused on Daniel's need to fix the altered timeline, and the consequences for Earth, that I hadn't really considered how the fate of the galaxy in that timeline would affect Daniel. Very good point!

I think the conversation with his "alternate" shows how Daniel has grown in some ways. He's much more confident. From what we know, the alternate Daniel seems bitter, disillusioned, and despairing. I think Margaret's description is accurate. The alternate Daniel seems more consumed by "angst and despair" in a way that our Daniel isn't. Yes, our Daniel is angry, frustrated, lonely, and perhaps even bitter about his circumstances. But he doesn't succumb to despair. Daniel has never given up easily, but I think his time with SG-1 has made him stronger and more determined than before, which accounts for the difference between the way he deals with his problems and the way his alternate handles his life.

Very true! The reactions of the non-SGC Daniel clearly show what might have happened to him if he had not been able to find out about the Stargate.
This reminded me of an early interview after filming (I think it was with Michael Shanks, but I'm not sure) that said that we would see a little of what might have happened if Daniel had not joined the SGC. I'd forgotten about that.
The Daniel who never received any acceptance of his theories, who remained completely isolated from the archeological community, who never learned to be confident about all his other abilities outside scolarship, would certainly not have become the Daniel he is in the "proper" timeline

[blade82]

I suppose after youve been killed several times and brought back to life and seen what he's seen and been through, losing your leg would seem pretty tame!!