My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[Petra]

Exactly!!

When I'm reading this thread I feel like it's been taken over by anger!!

Really? Oops I'm sure though that no one is angry and most, myself included, are just having fun.

Anyway, Aragon, I don't think we can further discuss "Heroes" without bringing Mods' wrath upon ourselves so I'll be happy to agree to disagree. I still think there were medical issues playing role, you think it was for the ship's benefit and we won't convince each other, so..peace?

I think Ashizuri summed things up in the most objective way possible. And we all agree that regardless of the ship we want an enjoyable, good third movie. Let's leave it at that.

[Aragon101]

Really? Oops I'm sure though that no one is angry and most, myself included, are just having fun.

Anyway, Aragon, I don't think we can further discuss "Heroes" without bringing Mods' wrath upon ourselves so I'll be happy to agree to disagree. I still think there were medical issues playing role, you think it was for the ship's benefit and we won't convince each other, so..peace?

I think Ashizuri summed things up in the most objective way possible. And we all agree that regardless of the ship we want an enjoyable, good third movie. Let's leave it at that.

Aye, i'm not angry, a little dissapointed, but not angry

and yeah, agree to disagree is fine with me

[Skydiver]

Define relationship

how can anyone prove that sam and jack are/are not in a relationship when that is not definitively defined.

They're friends. We've seen that.
they're co-workers. We've seen that.
they're comrades, we've seen that. (members of the same unit/command/branch of the military)
They were, for a year, the only two humans of a human/alien team. We've seen that.
They've both hosted snakes. we've seen that

There's five relationships that are canon.

Are they in a sexual relationship? we have no canon either way. (and i think you'd need to stipulate which universe you're talking about too, because in two different AU's (POV and TBFTGOG they were engaged/married) so i'm presuming in those two AU's they're sexually involved since engagement pretty much indicates that assumption.

And the Moebius sam and jack kissed, indicating an attempt/possibility to further the relationship although all we have is confirmation of a kiss - in canon.

So, what kind of a relationship are we talking about? adn what universe?

Because certain degrees of their relationship ARE canon.

[Targust]

Okay, how about this - Jack and Sam have never been shown to be in a relationship on the show, neither wear rings, neither of them have ever spoken about about being with the other in that way, neither of them display wedding photo's, both of them have had sexual relationships with people, none of the other characters have ever mentioned Sam and Jack being in a relationship, Sam still goes by the name of Carter, I could go on but it would be pointless. I could also do the same thing for any number of combinations of characters, say Hammond and Janet, and provide proof that they were never in a relationship but I doubt anybody could provide PROOF that they were.

There isn't any tangible proof of anyone being in a relationship on this show, its what we personally WANT to happen. Some think S/J is just so romantic...some don't. Some see it, some simply don't. I simply do not understand what the issue is, unless its just because folks cannot agree? Or is it that there's only one way and that's the S/J way?

That being said, a good third movie needs no ship to sail.

Just sayin'...

[Ashizuri]

That being said, a good third movie needs no ship to sail.

Very, very true.

Though I fully admit that I, and a lot of others I imagine, would like to see a definitive answer on Sam/Jack if this really is the end. If it's a "yes, they're together" great. If it's a "no, they're not" great. Just give us an answer so all this arguing can end.

[Targust]

Very, very true.

Though I fully admit that I, and a lot of others I imagine, would like to see a definitive answer on Sam/Jack if this really is the end. If it's a "yes, they're together" great. If it's a "no, they're not" great. Just give us an answer so all this arguing can end.

I seriously doubt the arguing will EVER end, regardless if there's tangible proof or not.

All I want is a good third movie. I will admit, I am not a fan of Sam, but others who want to squee about her I will not shoot down their opinion...and that is what I see here. This has turned from a question about the third movie into a Sam/Jack thread, and there's only one valid opinion.

Regardless! I don't care if the focus of the third movie is going to be the lack of fish in Jack's pond...I just want another movie, and if the writers feel they have something to prove, then that's fine as well.

[Ashizuri]

I seriously doubt the arguing will EVER end, regardless if there's tangible proof or not.

Well, that's true. But if there is 100% confirmation in the movie (either way) and the other side still says "not canon, you're wrong!!!" well, that would just make them look silly.

All I want is a good third movie. I will admit, I am not a fan of Sam, but others who want to squee about her I will not shoot down their opinion...and that is what I see here. This has turned from a question about the third movie into a Sam/Jack thread, and there's only one valid opinion.

I don't get it either. I don't ship Jack/Sam, I enjoy them at times and dislike it at others, but I don't want to rain on anyone's shipper parade. Nor do I think a small romantic scene will ruin the movie completely. If it's done right, it can only enhance my enjoyment of it.

I consider myself very lucky to have my "middle of the road" opinions on Sam/Jack.

[leiasky]

Well, that's true. But if there is 100% confirmation in the movie (either way) and the other side still says "not canon, you're wrong!!!" well, that would just make them look silly.

People see what they want to see, whether its there or not. It's silly but it'll never change.

I don't get it either. I don't ship Jack/Sam, I enjoy them at times and dislike it at others, but I don't want to rain on anyone's shipper parade. Nor do I think a small romantic scene will ruin the movie completely. If it's done right, it can only enhance my enjoyment of it.

I'm one of the few who, apparently, has faith that Brad and Carl will do it right

Well said in any case

[Ashizuri]

I'm one of the few who, apparently, has faith that Brad and Carl will do it right

Brad I trust. He's written some of my favorite episodes, and some of my favorite Sam/Jack moments.

[DSG1]

Why do we have to have ANOTHER thread about this? Wow, can't believe anyone still believes there's going to be a third movie let alone a third movie centering around Sam/Jack? They'll be old and gray before anything happens between them lol. Walks away and sadly shakes my head.

Correction: Make that I'll be old and gray before they even get around to filming.

Cant believe 20 years later this is still being discussed.

rolls eyes.

oh and I dont read flames, so save them for someone who does.

[Frostfox]

sniped for brevity

What does it add? Well, maybe some depth? Character development?

You can have all those things without a relationship between the characters, not every scrap of depth and character development since Chaucer has involved characters pairing off. Look at The West Wing or The Unit or Life on Mars. Romance is a valid form of character interaction but it has to be well done or it dips into melodrama and detracts, rather than adding interest, to character.

I agree that Sam has been "warped to fit the ship" but every character on the show had the same thing done to him/her. We've already discussed it on this thread. And personally I believe that nothing in 8 years of S/J ship hurt Sam's character as much as 4 episodes of Sam/Pete.

And finally, I don't find anything wrong with Sam running to check on Jack in Heroes, and believe it or not it has nothing to do with my being a shipper. I don't find this scene particularly shippy. I just always assumed she run to him because he got shot, she had medical training and there were no other medics on the battlefield. Her previous position was immidiately filled. Nothing "dismal" about it. *shrug*

Personally? I didn't see anything wrong with Sam going to Jack, she'd have run to Daniel, Teal'c, Janet, Dixon, a red shirt? But I don't claim any expertise of military matters, so I have no idea if she violated any regs, and, if she did, I'm inclined to blame poor direction rather than deliberate character sabotage by TPTB.

Beautifully said. Absolutely right.

A circular discussion demanding proof is just that - circular. No one is going to change anyone elses mind.

There is proof - from multiple writer's - on screen - in special features. But those who don't want to see it will still deny because it doesn't fit THEIR version of canon. Meh. The writers wrote the words, directed the action. The intent is clear to me.

So - back to Sam and Jack IN THE MOVIE. . . It'll be there

I don't deny the relationship is there. I just think the relationship is unnecessary, poorly conceived and executed and is not a net gain for SG1.
I have no interest in seeing it a third film and if there is much of it, I won't bother with watching it.

Define relationship

how can anyone prove that sam and jack are/are not in a relationship when that is not definitively defined.

They're friends. We've seen that.
they're co-workers. We've seen that.
they're comrades, we've seen that. (members of the same unit/command/branch of the military)
They were, for a year, the only two humans of a human/alien team. We've seen that.
They've both hosted snakes. we've seen that

There's five relationships that are canon.

Are they in a sexual relationship? we have no canon either way. (and i think you'd need to stipulate which universe you're talking about too, because in two different AU's (POV and TBFTGOG they were engaged/married) so i'm presuming in those two AU's they're sexually involved since engagement pretty much indicates that assumption.

And the Moebius sam and jack kissed, indicating an attempt/possibility to further the relationship although all we have is confirmation of a kiss - in canon.

So, what kind of a relationship are we talking about? adn what universe?

Because certain degrees of their relationship ARE canon.

Re the bolded, wasn't that an AU again? Our Daniel and AU Teal'c organising a rebellion against Ra while AU Sam and AU Jack thought snogging more important? Moebius made my head hurt (and I didn't think it was as clever as TPTB did).

I would have loved to see a mentor/protégé relationship between them. We saw some of that, but it could have been much more and would have been fascinating.
Sam and Jack's friendship was sacrificed on the mighty alter of 'ship'.
Jack's a man, Sam's a woman, the only possible relationship the leading man and woman can have in a TV show is a romantic one. 'Cos, you know, in real life every man and woman who ever worked together ever has to end up together. Paired off two by two like animals in the ark, it's the natural order of things.
Because the only relationship of any value is a romantic one.

FF

[Aragon101]

Jack's a man, Sam's a woman, the only possible relationship the leading man and woman can have in a TV show is a romantic one. 'Cos, you know, in real life every man and woman who ever worked together ever has to end up together. Paired off two by two like animals in the ark, it's the natural order of things.
Because the only relationship of any value is a romantic one.

FF

Agreed, and if you want some proof that it can be done in a sci-fi setting. Look to Sheridan and Ivanova in B5. I don't even think there's any fanfic putting these two together despite their awesome friendship. They also have tons of great scenes where it's obvious they care about each other including hugs (Gasp! hugs can be friendly!?) and deep personal moments.

They even directly made fun of it in the show. Sheridan barges into her room at 4 in the morning and she snarks at him in a funny non-romantic yet talking about attraction

Spoiler:

Sheridan: come on! I need you to see this!
Ivanove: Don't you think i oughta get changed first?. (motions to pajamas)
Sheridan: Oh! Yeah sure uhh i hadnt noticed.
Ivanova: Alright just give me a... Wait... what do you mean you didn't notice? Granted, i don't have any interest in you, you have no interest in me, but the least you can do if you come barshing into my room in the middle of hte night is go "Nice outfit Ivanova!"
Sheridan: Oh uhh... "Nice Outfit Ivanova."
Ivanove:... God you men are all alike... *mutters incomprehensibly as she gets changed.*

the closest i can think of along the same lines is the "Sidearm" joke in Solitudes.

I'm not even against 2 main leads getting together. But it needs more meat than what i've seen in S/J, which means that when and if the third movie comes out, i'll likely roll my eyes at the "romantic" scene

[leiasky]

I would have loved to see a mentor/protégé relationship between them. We saw some of that, but it could have been much more and would have been fascinating.
Sam and Jack's friendship was sacrificed on the mighty alter of 'ship'.
Jack's a man, Sam's a woman, the only possible relationship the leading man and woman can have in a TV show is a romantic one. 'Cos, you know, in real life every man and woman who ever worked together ever has to end up together. Paired off two by two like animals in the ark, it's the natural order of things.
Because the only relationship of any value is a romantic one.

FF

Your opinion if you remove 'Sam' from everything you say above and put 'Daniel'? You're a Jack/Daniel fan, yes?

I agree that parts of how Sam and Jack's relationship grew and changed was frustrating, but I also think the majority of it was well done - NOT because of how it was written or directed, but because of the chemistry between the actors.

Ahh, Aragron101 - JMS is just brilliant. He also had a 5 year plan which outlined how Sheridan was going to get together with Delenn

Perhaps a 5/10 year plan would have worked in Stargate's favor . . .

I have faith that Sam and Jack will get a nice little moment in the 3rd movie

[Frostfox]

Your opinion if you remove 'Sam' from everything you say above and put 'Daniel'? You're a Jack/Daniel fan, yes?

I agree that parts of how Sam and Jack's relationship grew and changed was frustrating, but I also think the majority of it was well done - NOT because of how it was written or directed, but because of the chemistry between the actors.

Ahh, Aragron101 - JMS is just brilliant. He also had a 5 year plan which outlined how Sheridan was going to get together with Delenn

Perhaps a 5/10 year plan would have worked in Stargate's favor . . .

I have faith that Sam and Jack will get a nice little moment in the 3rd movie

Scratches head.
I still don't see the connection. Homosexual relationships are no the norm on US TV, which makes the question irrelevant.
I've never campaigned for J/D on the show and it's off topic for this thread.
I'm quite able to discuss Sam and Jack's relationship without including my fannish preferences, why do you keep bring it back to J/D?

FF

[Aragon101]

I just had a thought. With SGU having been called BSG-lite so often, and the writers doing something "New and Edgier"

Would it surprise anyone if we got a Roslin/Adama in this third movie? OMG! I don't know whether i'd be impressed or outraged, i'd likely just be... shocked.