My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[leiasky]

Originally Posted by Ashizuri View Post
Should her grief for Janet mean she can't take a moment to appreciate that Jack is alive? And does that one moment really take away from her very obvious grief during the rest of the episode? You're right in saying that it shouldn't have to be one or the other, but It seems like this one (admittedly unsubtle) moment of Sam focusing on Jack means she's done mourning Janet when the rest of the episode clearly shows us she's not. She's mourning janet, she's just also (understandably) incredibly happy that Jack is alive. I don't think that moment takes anthing away from her grief over Janet.

This. Yes. Beautifully and succinctly put.

Citation?
I'd be very surprised if fans hadn't moved on. Every other fandom for a TV show goes through phases, building up then dying off once the show ends. Are you saying that the J/S portion of fandom hasn't?
Slash fandom is following the usual curve, though I would expect a surge when (if) the film comes out.

FF

The simple fact that the merits of a relationship between Sam and Jack are still being discussed (in multiple threads, no less) is sufficient proof that many fans have not moved on.

[flynn1959]

This. Yes. Beautifully and succinctly put.



The simple fact that the merits of a relationship between Sam and Jack are still being discussed (in multiple threads, no less) is sufficient proof that many fans have not moved on.

Not really, it just proves that a small portion of fans that post on one forum are still interested a little. Even if every fan who posts on every forum wanted ship/confirmation/non confirmation it would still only be a tiny portion of the total fanbase. On line fans have always been a tiny, tiny minority. If the fact that a certain ship were still being discussed in forums were to factor into TPTBs script decissions then Jack would be running off to wed Daniel in this movie. Slash between those two is still as strong as ever, maybe even more so. And they have a longer history than J/S.

[Frostfox]

TPTB have committed a lot of events to tape that have not shown the characters in a good light. For example, Coop's insistence that sam MUST kiss pete on the scene of that stakeout, despite it being in appropriate for her light of her position.

Vala's behavior with Daniel or especially that scene with the senator. Funny? Sure. some think it so. But it did show the character in a way many find in appropriate. Daniel and Vala on the Odyssey, they thought it was great for daniel to verbally abuse her, then for her to fall into his arms without so much as an apology.

Teal'c going on a murderous rampage to revenge the death of a woman that meant so much for him she was mentioned once in ten years.

My point being, ALL of the characters have been 'assassinated' to make a plot work, to make a story work, to satisfy some image that the director of the day wants to put forth.

Largely because, in my opinion, these writers seem more devoted to keeping their musts happy than they are to respecting the characters in their care.

"Their musts happy'? Not sure what you mean, but I get the gist of the rest of the post and I agree, Sam was certainly not the only one to suffer.

What I find frustrating is that, most of the time, they would almost get it right (for example, the Sam and Jack hug in Heroes would have been perfectly fine shot as scripted with more subtle and skillful direction). The moment between Daniel and Vala would have taken more work but it's almost there, again, more subtle nuance, a lighter touch was required than what we got on film.

I love that scene, nothing wrong with it, Vala deserved that rant, she "harrassed" him.

I totally see that she deserved the rant, but, for me, it was too heavy handed, almost pantomime. Claudia and Michael could have been more convincing, for me, with a more subtle take on the same subject.

And I personally found daniel verbally abusive to her and that Vala was very submissive in the 'thank you for telling me how horrible i am' attitude.

I won't deny that she harassed him and bothered him, but the waay it was portrayed, to me, turned vala into a person that was supposed to be so grateful that he deigned to accept her that he had the right to treat her that way.

I've found much of their 'romantic' writing, especially in the last couple of seaons, to be very immaure and very bias'd towards the 'geeky male' perspective. (the attitude that, it's only sexual harassment if the ugly chick is hitting on me' kind of attitude.)

I found it an extension of the 'action jackson, manly = mean and snarky and i'm so wonderful that women throw themselves at me and i can treat them however i like' change that happened to daniel in the later seasons.

this is why i have reservations about ANY ship they choose to write for the movie. Because this bunch of writers seem to approach every relationship with the maturity of a 14 year old

I must confess, I never saw 'Action Jackson' which some fans mention, but oh, yes to the bolded. They are serial offenders by this time and don't seem to learn from the train wrecks of unbelievable attempts at relationships, Sam and Jack are not the only victims. I'm afraid I don't have any faith that they will do any better in the future. Perhaps it would be better if a new owner brought in a new PTB?

FF

[Skydiver]

sorry, their MUSES happy

these writers seem to get so focused on 'let me put forth my image' that they seem to pay little care if their images are true in any way, to the characters.

such as 'who cares if it's unprofessional for sam to snog pete, me wants that image to pull out on'

these writers continually sacrifice the characters to suit themselves and seem to place more importance upon their story than the characters in their care

[Frostfox]

sorry, their MUSES happy

these writers seem to get so focused on 'let me put forth my image' that they seem to pay little care if their images are true in any way, to the characters.

such as 'who cares if it's unprofessional for sam to snog pete, me wants that image to pull out on'

these writers continually sacrifice the characters to suit themselves and seem to place more importance upon their story than the characters in their care

Oh, yes! I hadn't thought of it like that but you're spot on, that does seem more and more prevalent, from what, about season 7 onwards? It might explain why the earlier seasons, despite some of the plot stupidities, appeal to me more, the characterisation is more constant (I was just thinking about this for col_aga's thread on favourite episodes for each character).
Sigh, Sam kissing Pete on the job wasn't a shining moment for her character either, was it? AT must have the patience of a saint.

FF

[Petra]

Not really, it just proves that a small portion of fans that post on one forum are still interested a little. Even if every fan who posts on every forum wanted ship/confirmation/non confirmation it would still only be a tiny portion of the total fanbase. On line fans have always been a tiny, tiny minority. If the fact that a certain ship were still being discussed in forums were to factor into TPTBs script decissions then Jack would be running off to wed Daniel in this movie. Slash between those two is still as strong as ever, maybe even more so. And they have a longer history than J/S.

So, if I understand correctly, you are implying than J/D fanbase is bigger than S/J? Out of curiosity, what do you base it on? I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just wondering how slashers can know the numbers of shippers and vice versa. As a shipper I don't check out slash forums/sites/LJs because they don't interest me in the slightest and I have a hard time believing that a slasher keeps tabs on the number of ship forum/sites/LJs because what's the point?

On a subject of TPTB writing skills, I have to say I enjoyed the way S/J were written in the first 6 seasons. It was quite subtle and believable. The problems started in season 7 when they made the effort to "write the ship" on purpose instead of just letting it develop. And then of course they turned the whole thing into soap opera with Pete's introduction.

And while I agree that attempts at writing D/V and McKeller were dreadful to say the least I liked Vala/Tomin relationship. TBH I found it to be the most enjoyable aspect of the last 2 seasons. It's written in a natural, mature way and if the writers managed to pull this one off I sincerely hope they remembered how to do it while writing the script for the third movie.

[Frostfox]

So, if I understand correctly, you are implying than J/D fanbase is bigger than S/J? Out of curiosity, what do you base it on? I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just wondering how slashers can know the numbers of shippers and vice versa. As a shipper I don't check out slash forums/sites/LJs because they don't interest me in the slightest and I have a hard time believing that a slasher keeps tabs on the number of ship forum/sites/LJs because what's the point?

I don't think there's any way to really tell, I just did a quick google search but it's all rendered a bit pointless by Jack, Daniel and Sam being common names, Jack Daniels (the drink) and 'ship' being applied to well, ships! It varies from site to site, Live Journal will have a different focus to Gateworld, for example; Gateworld doesn't allow slash in it's fanfic archives, so many slash fans play elsewhere. I don't think it matters much in the long run, ever dedicated S/J fan or J/D fan is outnumbered thousands to one by the casual fans who don't give a hoot either way.

On a subject of TPTB writing skills, I have to say I enjoyed the way S/J were written in the first 6 seasons. It was quite subtle and believable. The problems started in season 7 when they made the effort to "write the ship" on purpose instead of just letting it develop. And then of course they turned the whole thing into soap opera with Pete's introduction.

And while I agree that attempts at writing D/V and McKeller were dreadful to say the least I liked Vala/Tomin relationship. TBH I found it to be the most enjoyable aspect of the last 2 seasons. It's written in a natural, mature way and if the writers managed to pull this one off I sincerely hope they remembered how to do it while writing the script for the third movie.

It would be good, for the franchise sake, I'm just not sure they can with S/J because of the history with that pairing so far and also because it's been stagnant for five years or more. Paramount resolved Riker/Troi, Fox resolved Scully/Mulder, neither of those pleased the fans of the pairing and were something of a laughing stock with non fans of the relationships.

FF

[madaboutdanny]

I found it an extension of the 'action jackson, manly = mean and snarky and i'm so wonderful that women throw themselves at me and i can treat them however i like' change that happened to daniel in the later seasons.

Now I remember because I avoid like the plague the anti season 10 thread...and sorry, but which women?

[madaboutdanny]

.

And while I agree that attempts at writing D/V and McKeller were dreadful to say the least I liked Vala/Tomin relationship. TBH I found it to be the most enjoyable aspect of the last 2 seasons. It's written in a natural, mature way and if the writers managed to pull this one off I sincerely hope they remembered how to do it while writing the script for the third movie.

So, the rant is so so wrong, instead a man beating a woman and threatens to kill her is right....

[Melora]

So, the rant is so so wrong, instead a man beating a woman and threatens to kill her is right....

To me, it’s not so much about which actions are more morally right or wrong, but what is in character and what is not.

It was perfectly in character for Tomin to slap Vala and threaten her at the time b/c he was under the influence of the Ori. He later redeemed himself and became a better person. Their relationship was always portrayed realistically and the two characters were consistent in their actions towards one another.

In contrast, Daniel’s rant was out of character in my opinion because I don’t think Daniel would ever talk to someone he really cared about in such a way. Sure, he has a temper and he has also resorted to anger and violence at times, but it was never directed at someone he loved or cared about with the intention of hurting them. In fact, the only instance I can remember was his sarcophagus-induced snark at Sam in Need which doesn’t count b/c he was going through withdrawal.

In turn, Vala was written even more out of character than Daniel in that scene in Unending. Here is a feisty, strong woman who has been through hell and survived being reduced to a broken, weeping girl because a boy she likes yells at her and doesn’t return her feelings. Let’s put it this way – Tomin slaps and threatens her and she doesn’t bat an eye. Daniel belittles and insults her and she starts crying like a baby. Perhaps it was meant to show how much power Daniel has over her. If that’s the case, it isn’t a very healthy foundation on which to build a relationship. Then again, the Unending scene wasn’t really written entirely by the writer, or at least it wasn’t what the writer originally envisioned, so I don’t think we can lay all the blame at RCC’s feet for it.

As to the topic of the thread - while I prefer the flirty/fun/angsty ship of the Season 1-6 years, the only romantic relationships I felt were handled poorly in the end were Daniel/Ke’ra (b/c of Sha’re’s recent death), Sam/Pete, and Daniel/Vala (only b/c of the scene in Unending really). So I have no problem with TPTB including a little bit of romance in the movie. I personally would prefer it to be the J/S kind, but it wouldn’t bother me if Daniel, Teal’c, or Cam got a little romance either (the operative word being "little").

[flynn1959]

So, if I understand correctly, you are implying than J/D fanbase is bigger than S/J? Out of curiosity, what do you base it on? I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just wondering how slashers can know the numbers of shippers and vice versa. As a shipper I don't check out slash forums/sites/LJs because they don't interest me in the slightest and I have a hard time believing that a slasher keeps tabs on the number of ship forum/sites/LJs because what's the point?

On a subject of TPTB writing skills, I have to say I enjoyed the way S/J were written in the first 6 seasons. It was quite subtle and believable. The problems started in season 7 when they made the effort to "write the ship" on purpose instead of just letting it develop. And then of course they turned the whole thing into soap opera with Pete's introduction.

And while I agree that attempts at writing D/V and McKeller were dreadful to say the least I liked Vala/Tomin relationship. TBH I found it to be the most enjoyable aspect of the last 2 seasons. It's written in a natural, mature way and if the writers managed to pull this one off I sincerely hope they remembered how to do it while writing the script for the third movie.

My point was in fact that the ship between Jack and Daniel has been around longer than any other, since the original movie and still going strong. And it is huge but as I said I don't think that the massive popularity of J/D amongst on line fans should influence TPTB.

[Petra]

I don't think there's any way to really tell, I just did a quick google search but it's all rendered a bit pointless by Jack, Daniel and Sam being common names, Jack Daniels (the drink) and 'ship' being applied to well, ships! It varies from site to site, Live Journal will have a different focus to Gateworld, for example; Gateworld doesn't allow slash in it's fanfic archives, so many slash fans play elsewhere. I don't think it matters much in the long run, ever dedicated S/J fan or J/D fan is outnumbered thousands to one by the casual fans who don't give a hoot either way.

Which just proves my point that it's impossible to determine the number of shippers/slashers and making claims either way is just silly.

It would be good, for the franchise sake, I'm just not sure they can with S/J because of the history with that pairing so far and also because it's been stagnant for five years or more. Paramount resolved Riker/Troi, Fox resolved Scully/Mulder, neither of those pleased the fans of the pairing and were something of a laughing stock with non fans of the relationships.

FF

True, but with S/J it's not about resolving ship but rather confirming that it was resolved in Threads. There's a difference.
And have some faith!
Huh, at least we agree that writing S/J in a similar fashion quality-wise to V/T would be a good thing..That's something.

So, the rant is so so wrong, instead a man beating a woman and threatens to kill her is right....

spoilered for Vala/Tomin/Unending OT:

Spoiler:

Actually, I've never said that Daniel's rant was wrong. Please stop putting words in my mouth. The truth is, I don't have an opinion on this[ because it's been 3-4 years since I watched Unending and I simply *don't remeber* much about the scene. I remember not being bothered by the D/V resolution, that's it. We can discuss it again (on D/V ship thread) in a few weeks, when I rewatch the episode again.

Besides you make it sound like Tomin was some kind of a monster who beat and abused Vala regularly because it made him feel like a man/he saw her as an inferior being/it was a power trip for him while it clearly wasn't the case. He slapped her once (and then regretted it, apologised and risked his life to free her) not because she was his wife but because she was a person who was turning his whole world upside down and telling him his life was a lie. It's understandable he got upset and lashed out. And it's hardly comparable to D/V in Unending.

Also, what Melora said..

[majorsal]

Not really, it just proves that a small portion of fans that post on one forum are still interested a little. Even if every fan who posts on every forum wanted ship/confirmation/non confirmation it would still only be a tiny portion of the total fanbase. On line fans have always been a tiny, tiny minority. If the fact that a certain ship were still being discussed in forums were to factor into TPTBs script decissions then Jack would be running off to wed Daniel in this movie. Slash between those two is still as strong as ever, maybe even more so. And they have a longer history than J/S.

but jack/daniel isn't a shown and done and *real* ship, whereas sam/jack is. there's a difference.

sam/jack IS a ship done *on* the series.

and seeing as it's been portrayed on the series since it's beginning, there are fans that would like to see confirmation in the 3rd movie that they actually got together.

[jelgate]

but jack/daniel isn't a shown and done and *real* ship, whereas sam/jack is. there's a difference.

sam/jack IS a ship done *on* the series.

and seeing as it's been portrayed on the series since it's beginning, there are fans that would like to see confirmation in the 3rd movie that they actually got together.

And what gives you the authority what is a real ship and what isn't? I personally think both sides are seeing more then thier is but thats me

[Frostfox]

but jack/daniel isn't a shown and done and *real* ship, whereas sam/jack is. there's a difference.

sam/jack IS a ship done *on* the series.

and seeing as it's been portrayed on the series since it's beginning, there are fans that would like to see confirmation in the 3rd movie that they actually got together.

There's no fannish hierarchy that fans of one pairing are better than fans of another, that fans of a canon pairing are better, more of a fan or of greater worth than fans who aren't.

S/J is canon, but that doesn't mean it's fans are of any greater worth than D/J fans. Or any other pairing in fandom.

The nature of TV fandom is that fans are not passive watchers, they are active, they produce something, whether that is stories or art or just posts on a board such as this. They interact with each other, become friends and generally enhance each others watching of a show. That's what all fans do, it's what makes us come here. But all our opinions are equally valid, we are, in the end, all just fans.

FF