My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[never_on_earth]

Nah, i wouldn't go so far as to say i WAS a shipper, more along the lines of indifference. it did lead to some nice scenes like in Upgrades. But like i said, it was something i tolerated since the thought that they can't find anyone else is just erroneous IMO, but at the time, it didn't matter. And Sam just instantly latching onto pete, the first blind date she gets from her brother wasn't the Carter i knew. The Carter i knew would have kicked Pete to the curb and not even tried to soften teh blow.

Yet at teh same time, Sam with Pete made me think of her more as a real person, it was something that evidently said she was past her childish infatuation with Jack, but of course, that's impossible. *Rolls eyes*

Like i said, up until Divide and Conquer i could have seen something between them and tolerated it. But after that it really just became not only beating a dead horse, but riding it into the future. It just went nowhere.

Re-Bolded: Now we agree

I think I understand why you consider the ship to go nowhere. But that's exactly the reason why the confirmation would allow it to go somewhere Okay I'm just teasing you here.
But anyway, I respect your POV.

[Aragon101]

Re-Bolded: Now we agree

I think I understand why you consider the ship to go nowhere. But that's exactly the reason why the confirmation would allow it to go somewhere Okay I'm just teasing you here.
But anyway, I respect your POV.

A confirmation for me at this point is really riding the dessicated remains of a truly beaten horse. i won't get into specifics (there's a whole thread dedicated to that) If the writers weren't willing to push that extreme/limit in the show, doing it in the movies 15 years later just feels like a crock. I'd be shocked and actually quite impressed if they did a Lee/Kara style ending where they never truly get together despite their obvious attraction.

You know what'd be subtle to me? If we got a quick cut shot of Sam's dogtags and there's a ring there too. Maybe as she's changing into a flight suit or something, But i don't see TPTB doing something like that. This is likely the LAST SG1 thing EVER and i'm quite worried that it'll suffer "Star Trek: Nemesis" syndrome with over the top conclusions to the characters.

That's why i ALMOST wish that this movie doesn't get made, so that i don't leave SG1 with a sour taste in my mouth. SGA's ending was lackluster, i don't want SG1's swan song to end with a groan.

[Frostfox]

Um... hope I'm not going OT, but I thought you had a really interesting point here, even though I don't exactly agree. My opinion is that dragging it out made both Sam and Jack appear childish. Sam keeps coming back to her feelings for Jack, keeps mentioning them again, and can't seem to move on. That makes her look childish to me because she comes across as a pining teenager. At the same time, Jack looks just as childish to me, because he lets it continue. If they really have this overwhelming attraction that is affecting their working relationship (and that's the message I get from watching Divide & Conquer) then they should do something about it. Address the issue. Transfer to another team if it's affecting your job (or if you decide you want a relationship). Instead they do... nothing. That's not handling feelings like an adult in my opinion. I do agree with you in principle. If they had set aside their feelings/desires because they believed it was the best decision... then I agree, that would have been a mature, adult decision. I would have respected that. But that's not what happened. Sam and Jack never really make a firm decision either way, because the writers chose to drag out the romance angle. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself very clearly, but basically, if they had put a clear and decisive end to the romance angle after Divide & Conquer, then I would agree with you. But because TPTB dragged it out for several more seasons after that, I thought the characters came across as rather immature. Almost like they wanted to keep their cake in the fridge for later and eat it at the same time, all without having to deal with the extra calories it would add to their diet.

We've all been attracted to unavailable people, co-workers, friends, we all find ways to deal with it. It's part of what makes us adults, not school children, it has nothing to do with age and everything to do with maturity.
I don't want to see characters I care for portrayed like that, I refuse to believe that Jack or Sam would be so immature and silly. Which is why I get ticked off with TPTB. We know they had not intention of making any sea change in the status quo of the SG1 team, that's been said by RDA and others. It's obvious that they think they can string the plot line out for over a decade, I think that's patently ridiculous, poor characterisation and lousy story telling.

My general thoughts about the topic: Unfortunately... I never liked the execution of the little "ship" moments throughout the years. I never saw the romantic chemistry that some viewers saw between the characters. All I saw was cliched and (IMO) poorly written romance. It soured my view of the characters somewhat. So while I'm semi-resigned to seeing some "hint" or scene in the third movie (if it is made), it will still leave a bad taste in my mouth. For me, many of the S/J scenes did overpower the rest of the plot/story/characters in several different episodes. So I don't have a lot of faith that TPTB will be able to write a subtle and unobtrusive "confirmation" scene in the movie. The Stargate writers are good at many things... I just don't think that sophisticated and subtle romance is one of them.

Obviously that's just my impressions, and I certainly don't expect everyone/anyone to agree with me, but that's why I can't help but cringe a bit at the thought of some form of "confirmation." I also fully acknowledge that it's partially a matter of my own preference. I have a very low tolerance for sappy romance in any form.

Oh, this, all this, you are so much more eloquent than me! Thank you.

A confirmation for me at this point is really riding the dessicated remains of a truly beaten horse. i won't get into specifics (there's a whole thread dedicated to that) If the writers weren't willing to push that extreme/limit in the show, doing it in the movies 15 years later just feels like a crock. I'd be shocked and actually quite impressed if they did a Lee/Kara style ending where they never truly get together despite their obvious attraction.

You know what'd be subtle to me? If we got a quick cut shot of Sam's dogtags and there's a ring there too. Maybe as she's changing into a flight suit or something, But i don't see TPTB doing something like that. This is likely the LAST SG1 thing EVER and i'm quite worried that it'll suffer "Star Trek: Nemesis" syndrome with over the top conclusions to the characters.

That's why i ALMOST wish that this movie doesn't get made, so that i don't leave SG1 with a sour taste in my mouth. SGA's ending was lackluster, i don't want SG1's swan song to end with a groan.

They are too late to make it convincing, if they ever could have. Credulity is stretched beyond reason.
Jack left for Washington years ago, Sam's career is soaring (literally!), Sam and Jack: The Neverending Romance is an old, old plotline, SG1 has moved on, the characters have moved on, the fans have moved on.
You can't preserve a show in amber, it has to grow and change. If TPTB try too hard to capture the SG1 of five, six, seven years ago, the third film is going to be a laughing stock.

FF

[leiasky]

If TPTB try too hard to capture the SG1 of five, six, seven years ago, the third film is going to be a laughing stock.

FF

The above can pertain to anything from that timeframe. Not just Sam and Jack. The old team has gone their separate ways. All of them. Getting them back together believably shouldn't be too difficult. But, what one person thinks is believable, another may think is imature and poor writing.

[Ashizuri]

My opinion is that dragging it out made both Sam and Jack appear childish. Sam keeps coming back to her feelings for Jack, keeps mentioning them again, and can't seem to move on. That makes her look childish to me because she comes across as a pining teenager.

I don't know. I guess it just seemed to me that they cared, but not quite enough to make a move. I didn't take it as pining because her feelings for Jack certainly never prevented her from having other attractions (Narim, Martouf, Pete, Barret, the hot acended guy whose name I can't remember..Orlin?) or interests, nor did Jack's feelings for her prevent him from doing/having other things.

If they really have this overwhelming attraction that is affecting their working relationship (and that's the message I get from watching Divide & Conquer) then they should do something about it. Address the issue. Transfer to another team if it's affecting your job (or if you decide you want a relationship). Instead they do... nothing. That's not handling feelings like an adult in my opinion.

The only time I ever think it affected anyone's job was Sam in Heroes (and I have so much HATE for that scene). Divide and Conquer is a bit lame in the "ship" aspect because it talks about Jack not leaving Sam because he "cares", but I have a hard time believing Jack would have left any of them there if there was even a small chance he could have saved them. It was hard as hell for him to leave Daniel on Apophis' ship and (I think) the only reason he was able to was because the mission wasn't complete and he's always put the mission before himself. Had the bombs already been placed on Apophis' ship I think Jack would have sat right down next to Daniel and stayed with him.

The way they addressed their feelings was by deciding to do nothing, and for me it was never a problem until Heroes. I mean, certainly there were moments where I could tell they still cared (and season 7 is the absolute worst in heavey-handed sam/jack-ness) but I don't think it was ever a big enough issue that affected their ability to do their jobs (can I once again mention how much I hated that aspect of Heroes?).

My general thoughts about the topic: Unfortunately... I never liked the execution of the little "ship" moments throughout the years. I never saw the romantic chemistry that some viewers saw between the characters. All I saw was cliched and (IMO) poorly written romance.

Surprisingly, considering what I said above, I actually partly agree. Most of the moments the PTB put in I found heavy-handed and cliche (and I think that about every single ship on this show), but there were a few moments (the flirting in Nemesis) where I could see the chemistry between the actors. I'd be just as ok with no romantic moment as I am with the idea that there will be one.

I guess it just doesn't bother me all that much, but I can understand how it does because I have the same reaction to Daniel/Vala. As long as it doesn't become Sam/Jack the rest of the team it probably wont bother me at all, but if it's more than just a brief moment I will kick up a stink about the lame shipiness right along with the rest of you.

[Frostfox]

The above can pertain to anything from that timeframe. Not just Sam and Jack. The old team has gone their separate ways. All of them. Getting them back together believably shouldn't be too difficult. But, what one person thinks is believable, another may think is imature and poor writing.

Oh, completely true. The 'classic' 'Big Four' team is my favourite, but they have to be careful not to drop into a pastiche of the 'classic' years.
The later Next Gen films suffered greatly from this problem, Riker should have been promoted to his own ship years before, for example. And they had to do away with Data, due to Brent Spiner's pesky habit of getting older!

FF

[Frostfox]

I don't know. I guess it just seemed to me that they cared, but not quite enough to make a move. I didn't take it as pining because her feelings for Jack certainly never prevented her from having other attractions (Narim, Martouf, Pete, Barret, the hot acended guy whose name I can't remember..Orlin?) or interests, nor did Jack's feelings for her prevent him from doing/having other things.

Re: the bolded, that's a bit of a sad indictment of the relationship, isn't it? I'm sure that's not what TPTB intended but that's what it looked like.

The only time I ever think it affected anyone's job was Sam in Heroes (and I have so much HATE for that scene). Divide and Conquer is a bit lame in the "ship" aspect because it talks about Jack not leaving Sam because he "cares", but I have a hard time believing Jack would have left any of them there if there was even a small chance he could have saved them. It was hard as hell for him to leave Daniel on Apophis' ship and (I think) the only reason he was able to was because the mission wasn't complete and he's always put the mission before himself. Had the bombs already been placed on Apophis' ship I think Jack would have sat right down next to Daniel and stayed with him.

The only bit of 'Heroes' which really made me grit my teeth was that awful, needy, hug. It was such a slap in the face to Sam's long friendship with Janet and Cassie's bereavement too. Skilled writing and directing could have shown both that Sam had been worried about Jack and that she had lost her best friend and the mother of the kid who had already lost one family. Though I didn't appreciate the bait and switch over who had been killed either.
And I agree, I can't see him leaving any of the team behind the force shield in D&C, that's part of what makes Jack, well, Jack.

The way they addressed their feelings was by deciding to do nothing, and for me it was never a problem until Heroes. I mean, certainly there were moments where I could tell they still cared (and season 7 is the absolute worst in heavey-handed sam/jack-ness) but I don't think it was ever a big enough issue that affected their ability to do their jobs (can I once again mention how much I hated that aspect of Heroes?).

Surprisingly, considering what I said above, I actually partly agree. Most of the moments the PTB put in I found heavy-handed and cliche (and I think that about every single ship on this show), but there were a few moments (the flirting in Nemesis) where I could see the chemistry between the actors. I'd be just as ok with no romantic moment as I am with the idea that there will be one.

I guess it just doesn't bother me all that much, but I can understand how it does because I have the same reaction to Daniel/Vala. As long as it doesn't become Sam/Jack the rest of the team it probably wont bother me at all, but if it's more than just a brief moment I will kick up a stink about the lame shipiness right along with the rest of you.

We'll keep a place for you by the fire. We have the crumpets and toasting fork lined up and are ready to MST3K the film if we have to.

FF

[Ashizuri]

Re: the bolded, that's a bit of a sad indictment of the relationship, isn't it? I'm sure that's not what TPTB intended but that's what it looked like.

Naw. At least I don't think so, mostly because I don't think they "loved" each other yet. It's just an attraction at this point. Had they confessed to being in love and they said whatever lets do nothing, yeah, I'd call shennanigans, but to say I care a bit more than I should and then not do anything doesn't seem sad to me at all.

The only bit of 'Heroes' which really made me grit my teeth was that awful, needy, hug. It was such a slap in the face to Sam's long friendship with Janet and Cassie's bereavement too. Skilled writing and directing could have shown both that Sam had been worried about Jack and that she had lost her best friend and the mother of the kid who had already lost one family.

See, I don't remember the hug, which is why I think Sam/Jack doesn't bother me that much is because it didn't usually make a big enough impression that I remembered it once the episode was done.

Though I didn't appreciate the bait and switch over who had been killed either.

That was lame. I agree.

And I agree, I can't see him leaving any of the team behind the force shield in D&C, that's part of what makes Jack, well, Jack.

And it's why we love him.

We'll keep a place for you by the fire. We have the crumpets and toasting fork lined up and are ready to MST3K the film if we have to.

FF

I like crumpets...

[leiasky]

The only bit of 'Heroes' which really made me grit my teeth was that awful, needy, hug. It was such a slap in the face to Sam's long friendship with Janet and Cassie's bereavement too. Skilled writing and directing could have shown both that Sam had been worried about Jack and that she had lost her best friend and the mother of the kid who had already lost one family. Though I didn't appreciate the bait and switch over who had been killed either.

But the conveniently forgotten Teal'c and Sam hug where it is illutstrated quite well how torn up she was over Janet's death was fine with you? Okayy.

And I agree, I can't see him leaving any of the team behind the force shield in D&C, that's part of what makes Jack, well, Jack.

Illustrated quite well by Daniel and Teal'c refusing to leave Jack and Sam inside the ship. None of them should have continued to work together because they were all close. But - this is dramatic (whether or not you agree isn't really the point) television. Not real life.

[leiasky]

It wouldn't let me edit my post! Wahh.

Anyway, I wanted to add:

Regardless of how much people may want more believable 'real life' scenarios, we were obviously interested enough to watch this dramatic, fun, cheesy show for so long.

[Frostfox]

But the conveniently forgotten Teal'c and Sam hug where it is illutstrated quite well how torn up she was over Janet's death was fine with you? Okayy.

Not forgotten at all, that hug was fine, so why would I mention it? It's the hug with Jack that's so offensive, not helped by the 'Tough kid.' comment about the young woman Sam was willing to die in a cold concrete bunker with in Singularity.

Illustrated quite well by Daniel and Teal'c refusing to leave Jack and Sam inside the ship. None of them should have continued to work together because they were all close. But - this is dramatic (whether or not you agree isn't really the point) television. Not real life.

It's an episodic action/adventure show, I'm not expecting Proust, but I do expect a modicum of reality.

FF

[Frostfox]

It wouldn't let me edit my post! Wahh.

Anyway, I wanted to add:

Regardless of how much people may want more believable 'real life' scenarios, we were obviously interested enough to watch this dramatic, fun, cheesy show for so long.

They seem to be ironing out bugs as we type, I really think Darren and co have done a good job of making this place feel more like Gateworld in an astonishingly short space of time.

SG1 had very few stellar episodes (nothing as stunning as B5's 'In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum' or TNG's 'Chain of Command' or DS9's 'In The Pale Moonlight') personally, I think 'Abyss' came the closest. It had many middle of the road, very well crafted, workman like episodes which it should make no apology over.
Where it did shine was it's great sense of humour, especially in comparison to the above shows. And it had lots of charisma and charm. But it wasn't great art, nor did it pretend to be.

I'd hope a third film would stick with the winning formula, but, as I said, they shouldn't pastiche the 'classic' seasons too much, it should be SG1 for 2010 or 11 or 12, not SG1 from 2005,

FF

[Ashizuri]

Not forgotten at all, that hug was fine, so why would I mention it? It's the hug with Jack that's so offensive, not helped by the 'Tough kid.' comment about the young woman Sam was willing to die in a cold concrete bunker with in Singularity.
FF

Honestly, I'm impressed/surprised there was even a mention of Cassie. She was always more of a plot device than an actual character to me anyway.

Though, I think I need to rewatch Heroes because I don't remember Sam and Teal'c hugging either. . .but if Sam and Teal'c shared a moment of obvious mourning for Janet then I have no problem with Sam also taking a moment with Jack, who she cares about just as much and did almost die.

[Frostfox]

Honestly, I'm impressed/surprised there was even a mention of Cassie. She was always more of a plot device than an actual character to me anyway.

Though, I think I need to rewatch Heroes because I don't remember Sam and Teal'c hugging either. . .but if Sam and Teal'c shared a moment of obvious mourning for Janet then I have no problem with Sam also taking a moment with Jack, who she cares about just as much and did almost die.

Cassie fared better than some characters Cough. Jonas? Cough.

Sam taking a moment with Jack is fine. He's her CO, her friend, they care very much for each other and he's just had a close call.
Not a problem.
Turning it into a soft focus, over blown music, Sammy loves Sir and that is more important than any other relationship on SG1, nay, any other relationship ever seen on TV, is what I have a problem with. (LOOK! HE CARES FOR HER MORE THAN HE'S SUPPOSED TO! Scream TPTB, with the subtlety of a two by four across the back of our heads.)
We are all, after decades of exposure, fluent in the language of TV, the way a shot is framed, shot, scored is deliberate and meant to convey emotion at well as the surface text. And I can read the trappings of soppy romance when I see it.
SG1 and RDA, AT, Janet/TR and the fans deserved much better.

FF

[leiasky]

The only bit of 'Heroes' which really made me grit my teeth was that awful, needy, hug. It was such a slap in the face to Sam's long friendship with Janet and Cassie's bereavement too. Skilled writing and directing could have shown both that Sam had been worried about Jack and that she had lost her best friend and the mother of the kid who had already lost one family. Though I didn't appreciate the bait and switch over who had been killed either.

Not forgotten at all, that hug was fine, so why would I mention it? It's the hug with Jack that's so offensive, not helped by the 'Tough kid.' comment about the young woman Sam was willing to die in a cold concrete bunker with in Singularity.

I only mentioned it because above you made a point of saying the Sam and Jack hug was a slap in the face to Sam's friendship with Janet when Sam did have a moment with Teal'c that illustrated her sadness over Janet's death.

You just didn't like the poignant, in-your-face moment Sam had with Jack. Which is fine. But saying that that moment should have instead dealt with her friendship with Janet is unrealistic because she already had that moment with Teal'c.

And yet again comparing the 'tough kid' comment in season one, to this moment in season seven is also not exactly fair as the characters have grown. But, you're welcome to make the comparisons so long as I'm welcome to point out how unrealistic they may be

It's an episodic action/adventure show, I'm not expecting Proust, but I do expect a modicum of reality.

FF

Your version of 'reality' and what you enjoy in an action/adventure show is going to be different than someone elses

I personally, enjoy my own version of reality, as, obviously, do you