My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[never_on_earth]

And make-out sessions are just a no-no. Not because they're in their 40s/50s. But because they're over 20.



Me too. If the story they come (came) up with is quality television, I'd enjoy it either way. I have to say, though, it would be nice if they finally resolved that storyline.

Re:bolded : You think so too?

And yes, it doesn't mean I wouldn't care for them resolving the... unresolved

What they did in 200, so massively 'horrible' as far as i was concerned. A complete and total spoof and so massively OTT that it's just silly.

I think it was the point

I don't know about whether they were in a relationship or not (though it was a bit of a couple type moment until Daniel and Teal'c showed up), but didn't they smile at eachother while they were fishing in Mobieus Part II?

Seriously, I'm rewatching the show from the beginning, and maybe because I was too young to pick up on it in '97 (I was only 13) but there is a lot of flirty banter between them in season 1. I just finished Emancipation and found myself smiling at Jack/Sam quite a bit. Makes me wonder how much went over my head through the rest of the series.

Just...

I seem to recall discussion about how it was so obvious right from the beginning that TPTB wanted to put the two leads together (Jack and Sam). It kind of annoys me that it seems to start right from there, yet it truthfully goes nowhere until Divide and Conquer where it gets stopped short. It was pretty much there that i gave up on the ship. It was the same feeling i got from Riker being a Commander for so long, they weren't willing to push a limit, so it quickly became stagnant after that.

Season 1-4, i can tolerate Sam/Jack, after that really it feels so tired and the horse has since dessicated from the perpetual beating its taken that i feel it takes away from teh show rather than add anything. But like i've said, TPTB WANT Jack and Sam together, and there's nothign that will stop that.

This explain that! You used to be a shipper, or a part-time one anyway
I understand why you got tired though... the wave of tiredness just never hit me

[Aragon101]

This explain that! You used to be a shipper, or a part-time one anyway
I understand why you got tired though... the wave of tiredness just never hit me

Nah, i wouldn't go so far as to say i WAS a shipper, more along the lines of indifference. it did lead to some nice scenes like in Upgrades. But like i said, it was something i tolerated since the thought that they can't find anyone else is just erroneous IMO, but at the time, it didn't matter. And Sam just instantly latching onto pete, the first blind date she gets from her brother wasn't the Carter i knew. The Carter i knew would have kicked Pete to the curb and not even tried to soften teh blow.

Yet at teh same time, Sam with Pete made me think of her more as a real person, it was something that evidently said she was past her childish infatuation with Jack, but of course, that's impossible. *Rolls eyes*

Like i said, up until Divide and Conquer i could have seen something between them and tolerated it. But after that it really just became not only beating a dead horse, but riding it into the future. It just went nowhere.

[Ashizuri]

The Carter i knew would have kicked Pete to the curb and not even tried to soften teh blow.

I don't know that Sam would ever be callous enough to just kick some one she genuinely cared about to the curb with no consideration for his feelings. Sam did care about Pete, just not enough.

it was something that evidently said she was past her childish infatuation with Jack, but of course, that's impossible. *Rolls eyes*

Why are Sam's feelings for Jack childish? I'd go so far as to say that her continued love for him despite the fact that they cant/chose not to be together is alltogether too adult for words. Had the PTB had them carry out a high-school love affair (a la Daniel/Vala or Keller/McKay) then yeah, I'd understand childish, but two people who recognize a mutual attraction but also realize it would compromise them/their jobs and choose to do nothing about it, well, it's very grown up to see something you want but not get it because it's the better decision for you (at the time).

Not that I'm saying Jack/Sam wasn't without it's problems, because a lot of it was terrible (I try to block Sam abandoning her front-line post in Heroes to rush to Jack's side from my mind), but I don't get childish at all.

Then again, this is all opinion and I'm going to shut up before I stray to far from the topic at hand.

[Frostfox]

One of the few things you've said that I agree with!

Woo hoo!

There are all kinds of excuses why things happened the way they did on Atlantis (network interfearance, poor writing, poor chemistry) and likely all of them would have played a part in the inevitable outcome. When you have to force that square peg into the circular hole - it's just not going to work. Stop forcing and re-focus.

I didn't think much at their attempts a Daniel/Vala either. But we won't have to suffer that in the third film, no Vala.

It's be against the regs (pre- season 9, that is) to smile at her the way a man would smile at a woman he loves. And however irreverent Jack is for rules, that is one he never breaks.

Yet again. I agree. They're grown adults who have had successful relationships (however long or short they lasted) in the past. Anything resembling juvenile behaviour would be incredibly out of character for the both of them.

But I do trust that Brad and Carl will write any sort of confirmation subtlely and believably.

Sadly, my faith in TPTB is not so strong. And Brad and Carl may not be TPTB for the third film, it will depend on what happens with the franchise when MGM is sold off.

And yet, sex sells. Romance sells. Love stories sell. They may not be your cup of tea but they are for a lot of Stargate's core demographic. Otherwise, this kind of continuous/monotonous/tiring discussion would have ended years ago.

Believably integrating this kind of side storyline into the broader tale (10 years of action-packed teamy Stargate) takes talent. I think it was done remarkably well. Do I think and wish things could have been done differently? Yes. Do I want the third movie to have some sort of confirmation? Yes. Do I want it to be overt and take away from what we've come to know and love as teamy Stargate SG-1? No.

I trust Brad and Carl to do it believably.

Sex/Romance certainly sells, even bad sex, poorly written romance sells. Modern concepts of 'romance' and 'love' are just that, manufactured Hallmark moments with nothing of note to say about the human condition apart from the fact that the status quo have incredibly low standards and a woeful lack of imagination and genuine emotion. I like romance in my real life, I don't feel the need to have it fed to me in an homogenized, mass produced manner or to live my romantic live vicariously through TV characters.

What they did in 200, so massively 'horrible' as far as i was concerned. A complete and total spoof and so massively OTT that it's just silly.

i see a lot of it like in Point of View....AU Sam didn't reveal that she was married and no one knew until Jack saw her in private. And, it's an element of the story that coulda been left out or easily altered 'my husband.....' and the story wouldn't have changed one bit. The Identity of AU Sam's hubby was not a plot necessity, just a plot happenstance.

That's how I'd see it in the movie, a happenstance that - if left out - wouldn't change the plot of the story.

neither Sam or Jack are overt people. They're not like Vala, who expresses her emotions at the drop of a hat and who has no filter on her mouth. Their relationship tends to be rather Teal'c'like. Not in your face, not obvious, just there.

I would want anything in the movie to be like that, to just be there.

Now, I enjoyed 200, more than 100 certainly. The only bit I didn't enjoy was Jack being a peeping tom in the ladies shower room, that was horrible. But different people find different things amusing, 200 was a gamble which clearly didn't pay off for you. I agree it was OOC, though.

Actually he has. Maybe not in such an intimate way, but since they weren't in a relationship prior to Threads that's hardly surprising. But if you mean a friendly, I'm-happy-to-see-you-and-I-enjoy-spending-time-with-you/talking-to-you-smile like the one Jack shared with Daniel during SpaceMonkey scene then we've got plenty of this in the series. Off the top of my head: fishing invitation in Small Victories, their banter on bets in The Light, their banter during lunch scene in Proving Ground - in the last two he was *gasp* grinning!

And so there would be no doubt in your mind I hope that we'll get some scene in the third movie in which they do something fun/share a joke/grin at each other.

Really? One to one as opposed to the team? Wow, I never noticed. And I've never seen a screen cap either. I saw him smirk and that slightly self-effacing tilt of the mouth, but an open eye to eye smile? Wow. It's a bit sad (and endemic of Jack/Sam in general) that we have to go looking for it; a relationship based all on angst and meaningful looks can hardly be considered normal or healthy.

FF

[Aragon101]

I don't know that Sam would ever be callous enough to just kick some one she genuinely cared about to the curb with no consideration for his feelings. Sam did care about Pete, just not enough.



Why are Sam's feelings for Jack childish? I'd go so far as to say that her continued love for him despite the fact that they cant/chose not to be together is alltogether too adult for words. Had the PTB had them carry out a high-school love affair (a la Daniel/Vala or Keller/McKay) then yeah, I'd understand childish, but two people who recognize a mutual attraction but also realize it would compromise them/their jobs and choose to do nothing about it, well, it's very grown up to see something you want but not get it because it's the better decision for you (at the time).

Not that I'm saying Jack/Sam wasn't without it's problems, because a lot of it was terrible (I try to block Sam abandoning her front-line post in Heroes to rush to Jack's side from my mind), but I don't get childish at all.

Then again, this is all opinion and I'm going to shut up before I stray to far from the topic at hand.

last reply on the topic, but i was actually thinking of Chimera when i said kick pete the to curb.

as far as the rest, it's more about how tptb made Sam look as if she was incapable of having a satisfactory relationship wiht anyone else, even to the point where she doesn't bother looking because she's so smitten. That's not exactly adult in my books, that's immature obsession.

I do agree that the whole "regs" thing was adult though, it was just handled quite badly.

it's strange really, i love their friendship, i love their cameraderie, i just don't see it romantic.

[leiasky]

I didn't think much at their attempts a Daniel/Vala either. But we won't have to suffer that in the third film, no Vala.

I didn't enjoy that whole attempt at romance either, though I did enjoy the character when she wasn't part of the team. She was a good foil for Daniel since Jack wasn't there to frustrate him.

Sadly, my faith in TPTB is not so strong. And Brad and Carl may not be TPTB for the third film, it will depend on what happens with the franchise when MGM is sold off.

Brad is always going to be involved in the franchise. He created the show. It would not be easy to oust him from it without a significant exchange of dollars.

Sex/Romance certainly sells, even bad sex, poorly written romance sells. Modern concepts of 'romance' and 'love' are just that, manufactured Hallmark moments with nothing of note to say about the human condition apart from the fact that the status quo have incredibly low standards and a woeful lack of imagination and genuine emotion. I like romance in my real life, I don't feel the need to have it fed to me in an homogenized, mass produced manner or to live my romantic live vicariously through TV characters.

The mass market would tend to disagree with that opinion considering how well the above sells

a relationship based all on angst and meaningful looks can hardly be considered normal or healthy.

FF

It's believable to me when you consider their working relationship and reluctance to give up the fight for the safetly of the planet.

And, AND, we have to consider this is a television show. Very little romance in television/film is truly believable when you look at it from a real life perspective. Drag it out, keep them coming back for more, never resolve it, is the mantra writers/networks/studios live by. And the formula does work.

<mod snip> So - it's not that it wasn't there to begin with. It's that some people don't want to see it. Which is fine. Diferent strokes for different folks.

Hopefully, the resolution will be subtle enough that you can just ignore it. If not, oh well, the writers can't please everyone - nor should they try.

[Frostfox]

I didn't enjoy that whole attempt at romance either, though I did enjoy the character when she wasn't part of the team. She was a good foil for Daniel since Jack wasn't there to frustrate him.

I quite liked Vala, mostly because Claudia is such a charismatic actress.
I had no problem with her as a foil for Daniel, it was the attempts romance which I found poorly written and unconvincing... now, where have I written that before?

Brad is always going to be involved in the franchise. He created the show. It would not be easy to oust him from it without a significant exchange of dollars.

Honestly? I expect the current PTB to be the ones to do third film, but I'm not going to put money on on it, given the current precarious state of MGM. We have no clue who the new owners of the franchise will be or what direction they will want to take it in.

The mass market would tend to disagree with that opinion considering how well the above sells

Proving my assertion that mass media romance, which is a phenomenon from only the last 100 years or less (since the advent of TV, Radio, Films and mass publishing) is contrived to appeal to the lowest common denominator and no guarantee of quality.

It's believable to me when you consider their working relationship and reluctance to give up the fight for the safetly of the planet.

And, AND, we have to consider this is a television show. Very little romance in television/film is truly believable when you look at it from a real life perspective. Drag it out, keep them coming back for more, never resolve it, is the mantra writers/networks/studios live by. And the formula does work.

My point exactly, real people don't act like those in the popular media, it's foolish to think they do.

- it's not that it wasn't there to begin with. It's that some people don't want to see it. Which is fine. Diferent strokes for different folks.

Hopefully, the resolution will be subtle enough that you can just ignore it. If not, oh well, the writers can't please everyone - nor should they try.

We'll only know when the film comes out, and no, trying to please a few fans, from any faction, is not a recipe for good writing.

FF

[majorsal]

You know, i can see them the same way. happily co-habiting. if they do get married, i don't see a full out 500 guest formal affair in the academy chapel

what i see is a quick ceremony with a few friends present, or even the 'trip to vegas'

they're both low key people. and both have busy lives and careers and i thinkthe main reason they'd get married would be for simple legality and to, unquestionably, be the other's next of kin and DPOA (power of attorney)

i don't really see them making it into a huge ceremony either, but as long as it's with family and friends, and *heartfelt*, the size wouldn't matter.

i've built up such high hopes for this *confirmation*, i just hope i'm not disappointed in the end... and i know better.

[majorsal]

Hopefully, the resolution will be subtle enough that you can just ignore it. If not, oh well, the writers can't please everyone - nor should they try.

but not so subtle that a shipper is saying 'that's it???'.

this might be their moment to shine, so let it shine brightly!!

[lordofseas]

but not so subtle that a shipper is saying 'that's it???'.

this might be their moment to shine, so let it shine brightly!!

A small, love moment between Sam and Jack. They walk out the door, with the camera zooming in on a wedding photo on Jack's desk in the Pentagon. Cut to next scene.

[poundpuppy29]

If i were writing it (famous last words) I'd love stuff like i've said before. Matching rings, someone asking for 'colonel o'neill' and sam answers, a photo of their wedding sitting on a desk.

something that is there, that the shippers can squee over, yet isn't a vital part of the plot or storyline.

it's a mention and it's over. on with the movie

It reminds me of the novelization of Air, and there was a paragraph in there that listed who was where, what cam, daniel, vala and teal'c were doing. it never made it to the aired copy (and i have no way of knowing if it was originally in the script and cut for time, or input from the author)

it was there, it acknowledged the characters, but didn't change the plot in any way

it's kinda like how I would like to see it too if they do it even though I am not a shipper of them anymore I have friends that are and friends that aren't so either way it won't bother me even though I now have Sam with someone else in my AU it wouldn't bother me I just hope fandom doesn't turn too petty either way I may be dreaming but it would be nice if Fandom behaved like adults and not children.

OT was Vala still on earth in the novel? Just Curious put it spoilers so others won't get mad.

[Skydiver]

I honestly can't remember, sorry. I just remember noting it because it was one of a half dozen paragraphs or so that wer obviously cut from the episode, but were in the book, that explained a bit more about things

[Frostfox]

it's kinda like how I would like to see it too if they do it even though I am not a shipper of them anymore I have friends that are and friends that aren't so either way it won't bother me even though I now have Sam with someone else in my AU it wouldn't bother me I just hope fandom doesn't turn too petty either way I may be dreaming but it would be nice if Fandom behaved like adults and not children.

OT was Vala still on earth in the novel? Just Curious put it spoilers so others won't get mad.

Ask in the book thread, James posts there, he might tell you?

FF

[Khentkawes]

Why are Sam's feelings for Jack childish? I'd go so far as to say that her continued love for him despite the fact that they cant/chose not to be together is alltogether too adult for words. Had the PTB had them carry out a high-school love affair (a la Daniel/Vala or Keller/McKay) then yeah, I'd understand childish, but two people who recognize a mutual attraction but also realize it would compromise them/their jobs and choose to do nothing about it, well, it's very grown up to see something you want but not get it because it's the better decision for you (at the time).

Um... hope I'm not going OT, but I thought you had a really interesting point here, even though I don't exactly agree. My opinion is that dragging it out made both Sam and Jack appear childish. Sam keeps coming back to her feelings for Jack, keeps mentioning them again, and can't seem to move on. That makes her look childish to me because she comes across as a pining teenager. At the same time, Jack looks just as childish to me, because he lets it continue. If they really have this overwhelming attraction that is affecting their working relationship (and that's the message I get from watching Divide & Conquer) then they should do something about it. Address the issue. Transfer to another team if it's affecting your job (or if you decide you want a relationship). Instead they do... nothing. That's not handling feelings like an adult in my opinion. I do agree with you in principle. If they had set aside their feelings/desires because they believed it was the best decision... then I agree, that would have been a mature, adult decision. I would have respected that. But that's not what happened. Sam and Jack never really make a firm decision either way, because the writers chose to drag out the romance angle. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself very clearly, but basically, if they had put a clear and decisive end to the romance angle after Divide & Conquer, then I would agree with you. But because TPTB dragged it out for several more seasons after that, I thought the characters came across as rather immature. Almost like they wanted to keep their cake in the fridge for later and eat it at the same time, all without having to deal with the extra calories it would add to their diet.

My general thoughts about the topic: Unfortunately... I never liked the execution of the little "ship" moments throughout the years. I never saw the romantic chemistry that some viewers saw between the characters. All I saw was cliched and (IMO) poorly written romance. It soured my view of the characters somewhat. So while I'm semi-resigned to seeing some "hint" or scene in the third movie (if it is made), it will still leave a bad taste in my mouth. For me, many of the S/J scenes did overpower the rest of the plot/story/characters in several different episodes. So I don't have a lot of faith that TPTB will be able to write a subtle and unobtrusive "confirmation" scene in the movie. The Stargate writers are good at many things... I just don't think that sophisticated and subtle romance is one of them.

Obviously that's just my impressions, and I certainly don't expect everyone/anyone to agree with me, but that's why I can't help but cringe a bit at the thought of some form of "confirmation." I also fully acknowledge that it's partially a matter of my own preference. I have a very low tolerance for sappy romance in any form.

[Rachel500]

Just what it says, this is for MY THOUGHTS (read YOUR personal thoughts) about the potential for Sam and Jack in the third movie.

How you think the angle will effect the movie? How you think it might happen? What you think might happen? What do you think the spoilers mean in regards to the Sam/Jack angle?

<snip>

Primarily, I'm hoping for a strong Stargate story with the old SG1 at the heart of the action.

I would like the Sam/Jack arc, that was a part of the original SG1 story, to be acknowledged in some way that confirms the two are in a romantic relationship now. I quite like the idea of the movie opening with an 'off-duty' scene with just the two of them (Jack or Sam arriving home, kissing each other hello, looking forward to an evening at home, a casual mention of plans they have for a trip away to the cabin, etc)...and then the call to action.

In regards to the spoilers, Brad has talked about a romantic scene but let's face it - there is a huge time gap between his mentioning it and when the movie ever gets to the screen and in between there are a lot of different places for it to be removed or changed for whatever reason (time, flow of the action, etc). So I don't expect anything.

I also don't expect Sam/Jack to be central to the plot but in all honesty, if it's a good plot and they are, I'm not going to complain too much.