Camelot (920)

[bcharley]

Spoiler:

Mitchel gets to a 302 and JAckson gets beamed into a toilet ship, Probably by vala or the ori.

Spoiler:

Daniel was probably beamed onto an ori ship since he responded to their hail with the right passage from the book of orgin.

[The Engineer]

Thankfully the battle was awesome, but I still feel this should have been a 2 hour episode.

I agree with you on the 2 hour episode part (1hr 30').
I also find the Ori ring ships more threatening in Camelot than in Crusade.

[the fifth man]

Yep, this will definitely tick the Russians off. Their ship doesn't even make it past it's first mission. Very sad.

[Laros]

In Arthur's Mantle we find out that Merlin's device ran out of pimp juice, but it had revealed some information. But unless I'm mistaken they never said "Hey, look - the location of a planet where there's a city called Camelot!" instead, they wait until episode 20, and just sort of walk into it like it was an ordinary episode of Stargate.

As far as I know, that didn't happen. It was a continuation of the previous episode, which, incedentally, ended with them leaving to search for Merlin's weapon. They knew the location from the device, but not the name of the city.

Also, sword in the stone? Conveniently in the town square of said Camelot? Please. Unless every city that Merlin had a workshop at had a sword in the stone and a Black Knight protector, it just was too goofy that this tiny little town (despite the CGI that made it appear a little bigger, nothing the SG-1 team saw made it appear to be that large a place) had a sword in the stone.

Um... it's Camelot... Despite the lack of grand sets it is still Arthur's main city. I see no problem with sticking the Sword in the Stone at Camelot.

Finally, the battle. Let me ask you something... The Jaffa served the System Lords, and now were free. Don't you think they'd have more then, say, 10 capital ships to their names? It was almost laughable the number of ships they had. So laughable that Teal'c in his wisdom had to go and get himself captured in the span of 10 minutes (considering the episode was crammed into 42 minutes) by the Lucian Alliance to get their help? Oh, wow, nice, they brought along 3 Ha'Tak's... yup, they are really a big Alliance, aren't they?

Humans are not the only intelligent race in the galaxy, in fact, after this battle it appears as though they are the least intelligent. The Lucian alliance (was was seen in the scene where Teal'c was captured) has many more ships, they just didn't want to risk losing them all at once. The Jaffa were probably thinking the same thing. It is very tactically unsound to send all of your resources into battle against an enemy of unknown strength.

[the fifth man]

I agree with you on the 2 hour episode part (1hr 30').
I also find the Ori ring ships more threatening in Camelot than in Crusade.

I would have loved it to be a two-hour ep too. TPTB could have put so much more into it that I'm sure they wanted to. But personally, I still really enjoyed it. I liked all the beginning stuff (I'll admit Camelot itself could have been a cooler city), and of course thought the battle scenes rocked. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd have to give "Camelot" a 9. But, that's just me.

[the fifth man]

It is very tactically unsound to send all of your resources into battle against an enemy of unknown strength.

I'd have to agree with that statement.

[Dani347]

Which one? All of them, past present and future!

What? A girl can't dream?

[golfbooy]

Ok, I'm a couple days late and I'm never going to reach the level of euphoria that so many here seem to have regarding the space battle, but here are my rather insignificant thoughts on Camelot. At least here are the thoughts I've got right now. I'm sure I'll have other thoughts later. And I'm sure I'll think most of these thoughts aren't very thought-provoking and, quite probably, rather thoughtless, and I'll wonder why on Earth I thought these thoughts in the first place. But so long as I thought something, that's all that matters. After all, it's the thought that counts, right?

Anyway, I feel the need to start off with the good. And by "the good" I mean the biggest and best part of the episode, the one thing that made me stand up and cheer, the one thing that got my heart pumping and made me feel like I was watching something akin to SG-1 for the first time this season. I know what you're all thinking--special effects heaven. But, alas, I just can't seem to take as big a toke on that sweet, sweet CGI bong as the rest of you. More's the pity for me. I suppose. But, no, by far the biggest star of this episode is the redoubtable direction of Martin Wood. He's always been SG-1's best director (my opinion, of course), and aside from Brad Wright, he's the biggest loss SG-1 has had to bear since the added burden of Atlantis was heaved upon the shoulders of Bridge Studios. Only having Martin Wood direct one or two episodes of SG-1 for the past couple of years has been quite a blow, but it becomes even more pronounced of a loss when he does get a chance to come back and work on SG-1 once in a while. Camelot was a visual feast, replete with blocking that actually enhances a sense of team, camera work that keeps the story interesting and the viewer engaged, and a believable integration of live action and CGI that, as is evidenced by the last twentysome pages of this thread, was able to enrapture the minds of many fans.

Wood's direction of the village scenes are what really stood out to me. Overall, the script for Camelot suffered from a decided lack of originality and inspiration, but I thought that the direction was able to make up for that by keeping the story dramatic. Here, SG-1 was the driving force, not the plot. The opening teaser where the camera is constantly moving to and from the characters speaking and finally pulling back to reveal (gasp!) the sword in the stone was nicely done. It made what was a rather mundane and predictable teaser somewhat engaging. Likewise, the scene with Daniel in the rain was constructed so that it gave what was, scriptwise, a simply functional conversation more meaning. I'm not sure I'm conveying this well, but the difference is that Daniel comes across as proactive, as opposed to just plodding. Also, the moving camera in Merlin's workshop definitely added a sense of intricacy and wonder to the place. The bi-level shooting of Daniel and Mitchell upon their return from the Odyssey was especially delightful. And, since this is getting too long, I'll finish up by saying that the conception and execution of the scenes with Carter and the supergate had to be difficult. Just storyboarding those images so that the CGI could be added on later must have been a challenge. That said, I thought that Carter fit in quite naturally with the computer-generated environment. And Martin Wood has always been able to get the best performances out of the actors. Be it Solitudes, Abyss, Lost City, ect., I feel like the actors really step it up when they're working with him. I think all the actors were quite good in this one, and each of them had a couple of nice scenes......which I suppose I'll talk about in further detail later.

Well, now that "the good" is out of the way, I'll quit acting like the good, fawning fanboy and move on to more disappointing matters. You know, like the script. I haven't been much of a fan of the Arthurian bent SG-1 has taken this season, and alas, I'm still not. I'm finding it a bit ridiculous that the Ancients are responsible for the Arthur legends. Sorry, but I just don't think that the first eight seasons of SG-1 where the Ancients are this huge, enigmatic culture that constructed the awe-inspiring stargate network, that helped to form the alliance of 4 races, is well served or treated with respect by taking them down this path of adolescent fantasy. One of my biggest issues with Atlantis (and I have many big issues with Atlantis) is that the Ancients are constantly dumbed-down and stupified in order to create imbecilic plots for the characters. To a certain extent, that same attitude is bleeding over into SG-1. In SG-1 the Ancients are still somewhat worthy of admiration and ascension is still an admirable goal. But I'm worried that this new, exciting path for stargate will only further debase the aura of enlightenment that surrounds them. As for the script of Camelot itself, well, bleh. I hate how Mallozzi and Mullie scripts so very often rely on conveniences and cliches in order to keep moving. This one is no different. Seriously, did Mitchell just have to accidentally find the secret passage? And just why didn't the Black Knight shut off once Daniel activated the device? Was the visual of Daniel shooting those control crystals at the precise moment that the Knight was about to plunge his sharp, pointy brand into the habergeon-less (unless all that cool mud forms a sort of hardened armour) Mitchell too sexy to pass up? Did the supergate absolutely have to activate at the precise moment that Carter was about to dial out herself? Must timing coincidences be the only source of drama in Mallozzi and Mullie scripts?

Also worth mentioning, as a couple of other posters already have, is that Camelot felt suspiciously like two episodes crammed into one hour. Off the Grid and Arthur's Mantle felt the same way, and I really am wondering what the point of it all is. Do the writers think that taking two good story ideas and making them one will make that single episode BIGGER? The village stuff was easily its own episode. Hell, the first three acts of Camelot was all village/Merlin stuff. Surely two further acts of that part of the story were to be easily had. Likewise, the supergate/Ori invasion stuff could have been its own episode as well. Teal'c's bit with the Lucian Alliance deserved more screentime, and the Asgard deserved more than a token appearance. And where was General Landry and the SGC in all of this? Surely, filling time wasn't an issue with such big happenings. I suspect (and these are just suspicions) that the episode we saw as Camelot was indeed two separate epsiodes when originally conceived, the village stuff being episode 19 and the Ori invasion being episode 20. However, once the decree came down that Vala must return despite Claudia Black's pregnancy and all logical story progression otherwise, these final two episodes were conjoined to facilitate Crusade's inclusion in season nine. Well, that's it for my conspiracy theories for the day. See, I didn't say I wasn't out there, I just said I usually stay away from the CGI bong. Other bongs are definitely in play.


(Continued below. I will not be silenced!)

[golfbooy]

(Continued from above. My thoughts shall not be denied.)

Now for the characters. Landry, Dr. Lee, Walter, and Siler. Um....see the above paragraph. Before seeing the episode I wouldn't have guessed that "Lucian Alliance Guy" would have a bigger role than Landry. Oh well, it's not the first time I've been miles apart from the writers this season. Surprisingly, I missed seeing Hammond-lite and the SGC, though. I've been rather ambivalent towards Landry, but would have appreciated some tie to Earth in this episode. It's just a nitpick, though. I get that time was at a premium.

Out of SG-1, Daniel is by far the big winner in this one. I think Michael Shanks has been very good this season (Daniel's pissy, Vala-induced behavior aside), and this was an episode that really played to his character's strengths. He was great in Merlin's library, appealing to archivist, and pleading with the villagers. Daniel was also especially effective in the final scene on the Korelev's bridge, responding to the Ori's message in kind. The simple, unencumbered expression that Daniel knows the Book of Origin backwards and forwards serves both the story and the character well. Out of the entire episode, this might have been my favorite moment.

Mitchell was pretty good in this one, too. Again though, there seemed to be very little for him to do in the story. Hence, he just tagged along with Daniel most of the way, adding his usual quips and jumping through the air. I get that Mitchell is SG-1's resident chevalier, but I am afeared that soon there won't be anymore knights for him to slay. At least I hope there's no more knights (though if there are, my bet is on the Green Knight next, which is ominious for Cam). As for the swordplay stuff, it was more bearable this time around, because Martin Wood pulled it off as part of the story way, way better than Andy Mikita did in Avalon, where it seemed more spectacle than substance. I haven't seen many people mention Cam's short scene with Valencia. For me, this is probably my favorite Ben Browder scene from the entire season. It's not about action, it's not about plot, it's not about backstory. It's just a simple, short scene where the character connects with the audience. At least it worked for me.

Teal'c got short changed. Easily the most undeveloped part of the story was the Lucian Alliance stuff. It seemes pretty obvious that some of that got cut, and I understand the necessity of editing, but Teal'c's actions and the inherent danger he took upon himself lacked the gravity it deserved. That said, T-man has been a little too actionless this season. I suspect that has to do somewhat with Mitchell, but stoic council-Teal'c needs to be balanced out, which this story did nicely. I wanted more, though. I thought Chris Judge was good in the scene with Netan, but seriously, a Luger pistol? What is with the seeming aversion to zats and staff weapons this year?

Overall, I think that Carter got the short end of the stick as well in Camelot. I have to say, though, that her scenes with Kvasir and the supergate were terrific. Likewise, I loved her reaction to Mitchell's and Teal'c's "conversation" about Cam's overconfidence. I say this all the time, but can we please have more Carter/Teal'c scenes? Also, out of everyone, Carter being stuck out there in space during the battle was a very nice touch. As someone else mentioned somwhere, I think the episode would have been much, much more dramatic if the final shot was Carter looking helplessly upon the massacre with the scene reflected by her helmet, as opposed to the stupid, stupid baby. Man, do I hate the baby storyline. That's all for a different post, though. Anyway, Amanda Tapping's reaction shots were great and very well done, especially considering that she was looking at nothing. In the end, Carter's own helplessness really worked well to mirror the helplessness of the allied fleet. That part actually was a nice bit of direction and storytelling.

Finally, I'll depart you all with a few final observations on the most important part of the show--the team. At least it's most important to me. But, given the content of the massive amount of posts in this thread, it's clearly not to most others. Anyway, the team. Well, there isn't one. Sorry, but if Camelot did anything, it really helped to illustrate just how unteamlike season nine has been. Everyone is very much just doing their own thing, be it Teal'c just taking off on his own, Carter working on the supergate, or Daniel left to his lonesome in Merlin's chamber. Cliffhangers work best when SG-1 is together, and here they just weren't. I know the writers are dancing around the command problem. It's become quite the albatross dangling around SG-1's neck. Carter and Mitchell don't talk about it, Teal'c and Daniel are never in a position to take sides, and the writers are absolutely terrified to alter what has become the status quo. The result, I think due to the actors or directors, is that Carter, Teal'c, and Daniel don't really seem to like Mitchell. They tolerate him, sure. But after a whole year, he doesn't seem to have been accepted by the team. That was highlighted again in Camelot with Carter's and Tealc's reactions to Mitchell's "plan", as well as with a couple of Daniel's looks. I don't know, to me, SG-1 treats him more like a coworker than as one of their own. He's definitely on the outside looking in.



Ok, so I just tried to post this and the forum called me a windbag and told me to pare it down. I, of course, scoffed at such infantile software and have instead made two posts. Ha!

[warmbeachbrat]

You know, this episode really did play on all the character's particular strengths.
Daniel: Research, reasoning with the people, solving puzzles
Carter: science/technology behind the supergate and trying to stop it
Teal'c: although not much happened with him here, he went out and seek out an alliance with a hostile force. Displaying courage and intelligence in impressing upon said force the urgency of the situation.
Mitchell: Umm.. brawling. I'll need help with this one..

I think Mitchell was rather ingenious this episode. He knew that sometimes it's through the kids that you can get the most useful information. He picked a way to connect with them (sword fighting) and then used that to draw them out and find the info that he and Daniel needed. And it reaped dividends later in the episode when the girl pulled the sword out of the stone and threw it to him (I really, really liked that sequence with her deliberate movements and slow motion--very nice).

It also seems like he's more aware of his limitations--knowing that he isn't Daniel or Sam or Teal'c, he volunteers for what he CAN do. Now sometimes, obviously, he overplays what he can do (the Black Knight), but he doesn't pretend to usurp the others' skill territory. It's almost like he's the glue holding the team together. He's a complement to their skills and they can rely on him to do some things that they don't have time to do, while they are focusing on their area of expertise. I don't mean necessarily that he is merely the one who does the grunt work, I think I mean that he supports and lifts them up and keeps the team together in focus. Almost like he's harnessing the various strengths of the members of the team and making sure the job gets done. Or something like that--I'm not explaining what I mean very well.

It seems like Mitchell can think outside the box--sure, sometimes it gets him into trouble, but sometimes it really pays off.

[Dani347]

I think Mitchell was rather ingenious this episode. He knew that sometimes it's through the kids that you can get the most useful information. He picked a way to connect with them (sword fighting) and then used that to draw them out and find the info that he and Daniel needed. And it reaped dividends later in the episode when the girl pulled the sword out of the stone and threw it to him (I really, really liked that sequence with her deliberate movements and slow motion--very nice).

I hadn't thought of that interpretation before, but I like it.

Now, can someone tell me why Teal'c thought the Lucian Alliance in particular would make good allies? Did he just think they would probably need more battle power, and since no one had gone to them it wouldn't hurt, or did he think they had something unique to contribute?


golfbooy :

But, alas, I just can't seem to take as big a toke on that sweet, sweet CGI bong

Ha! I love it. I might steal it.

[the fifth man]

I personally enjoyed the episode......the search for the weapon provided some funny moments......Mitchell and the black knight.... this guy just have a way with holographic knights doesn't he...... the fight in space although was predictable, it was fun just to watch how each character reacts to the situation......

TWO THMBS UP FROM ME!!!!!!!!

Darn it.....now I have to wait.......hate waiting......

Two thumbs up from me as well. Mitchell does indeed have a way with holographic knights. If he keeps this up, he may turn into one hell of a swordsman ( or get seriously injured ). And the space battle was stunning. Great CGI in there, I'll tell you. I've already watched this one four times (I know, I'm obsessed).

[JackGyver]

Please stop being so pitty and judgemental, this is a TV show after all, if you really think that you could do better, then go and write the show yourself......
And perhaps you should have told everyone how this was going to end up.... Since you seem to be able to see the future and all.....

Hey, there's nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. You're being just as judgmental by saying that you liked the episode. It's an opinion. You don't have to be a writer or an actor to say that you don't like a performance or a story. Furthermore, just because TPTB are television writers, that doesn't mean they're always right and are doing what's best. And the show is rather predictable these days, in my opinion.

TV shows are just predictable sometimes, it's meant as entertainment, something you watch to relax, not to be all stressed up about it.

That doesn't mean that we have to sit and smile while we - most of us long-time Stargate fans - are fed stories and characters that we believe to be very, very sub-par.

I don't mean the above as an attack on you, but please realize that a lot of us have real, legitimate reasons for disliking the show. Our opinions are as valid as yours, and we do have a right to complain here. I'm done.

[Dani347]

I say this all the time, but can we please have more Carter/Teal'c scenes?

I say it all the time, too, and I'll add my agreement with you again. What's worse is, I thought we might get that, when they went off together.

Ok, so I just tried to post this and the forum called me a windbag and told me to pare it down. I, of course, scoffed at such infantile software and have instead made two posts. Ha!

Same thing happened to me on one of my posts. Although, I just painstakingly edited until it would fit.

[Fargater]

Why not use a naquada enhanced bomb on one of the segments of the supergate and blow it to hell?