Crusade (919)

[DEM]

Because in "Avalon (Part II)" and "Origin", it was Claudia Black and Michael shanks portraying Daniel and Vala in those two Ori galaxy people. So unless you'd rather have had 2 episodes where the only glimpses we'd get of Michael and Claudia were of their lifeless bodies in the SGC, stop whining.

Nice way to: 1) Miss the point, and 2) be rude about it.

[valaCB]

We all, of course, remember 'Holiday' and Ma'chello. The boy can act.

Yup . He sure does

[Dani347]

It's been said already, but I think it bears repeating:

Seeing Vala when she possessed Daniel is thematically consistent with what was established for this situation at the beginning of the season.

We the viewers get to see the person who is really there, not the bodies that are being inhabited. To complain about Cladia Black being there instead of Michael Shanks obligates you to complain about Claudia and Michael getting all the screen time in 'Avalon part II' and 'Origin', instead of the young actors hired to play Harrid and Sallis.

It was important for Claudia to be the one sitting in that chair. For the viewers, to reacquaint us with a character we haven't seen since last summer, and to make blatantly clear who was doing the talking. It was also important for the acting, to convey everything that needed to be seen. Having Michael do all the 'present' scenes wouldn't have been effective, I think, not to mention making it a much more demanding shoot. Sure, it's a shame that he got such limited screen time in this episode, but over the last nine years, there have been plenty of episodes where certain actors had a limited presence. Besides, there have been plenty of Daniel-heavy episodes this season, it was his turn to sit back for once.

All-in-all, a very good episode, one that demanded an almost immediate rewatching from me. (A role Galactica occupied the last two weeks, but didn't merit this time).

First, this isn't about his lack of screen time. If they had gone a different route where Vala was there as Vala, and Daniel was sitting with the rest of them (who, to my mind barely got any more screen time than he did, if they even got anymore) I would not have these objections. No, I wouldn't enjoy it as much, but I wouldn't say that they missed an obvious opportunity. But, please, don't assume that just because there are complaints with how the episode was written or what MS did, it just comes down to wanting him to have more screentime.

Second, I disagree that objecting to not seeing MS playing Vala provided that they set up the situation of Vala being in Daniel's body, means that you must also object to seeing MS and CB instead the one time no one will ever see them again guest stars. Two different things. No, I don't think you are supposed to see the person who's inside the body. That technique in Avalon had (imo) nothing to do with what we're supposed to see (we're supposed to assume that we're seeing what the characters see), but everything to do with the fact that you don't have a minor guest star have the bulk of screentime over one of the main stars and a special guest star. So, it's not because we see who's inhabiting the body (why would we see that?) , the reason why we saw MS and CB in Avalon instead of the people who played Harrid and Sallis is simply because the actors who played Harrid and Sallis weren't important. MS and CB were.

And, like I said, they had all the scenes on the planet itself. Having MS play Vala at the SGC would not have taken away CB's opportunity to act, or take away the chance to re-establish Vala as a character, imo. Because she would have had the chance to do some fine acting on the planet. Also, MS would not be playing Daniel. He'd be playing Vala. So, after the initial thinking of him as Daniel, we'd think of him as Vala. Just like in Lifeboat, I never thought of MS as Daniel. He was Martise, Tryan, and Keenan. Or, in Holiday, CJ spent part of the episode being Jack, and I had no problem thinking of him as Jack. And, when RDA was Daniel briefly, he was Daniel.

Or, like I've said, they could have just sidestepped the whole thing by not putting Vala in Daniel's body. Let some walk on actor playing a scientist or something be the one to have Vala inhabit his body, if they couldn't think of any other way to do it. Or, find some other way to tell the story without Vala having to be in anyone's body. Who knows what kind of technology the Ori have, or tptb could invent? They could have had some kind of technology that allowed Vala to come back as a holographic image, which would be kind of like being out of phase, only they could see her and hear her. And, I'm just throwing out ideas. These may not be good ones, or viable ones, but there are other ways they could have done it that wouldn't require the tactic of Vala being inside Daniel's body. But, as long as they set up a situation where anyone is in Daniel's body, I will always feel it's a mistake not to let MS play it. Again, it comes down to the idea of not letting a singer sing in a musical where the singer is acting the part of a singer.

[Formerhost]

First, this isn't about his lack of screen time. If they had gone a different route where Vala was there as Vala, and Daniel was sitting with the rest of them (who, to my mind barely got any more screen time than he did, if they even got anymore) I would not have these objections. No, I wouldn't enjoy it as much, but I wouldn't say that they missed an obvious opportunity. But, please, don't assume that just because there are complaints with how the episode was written or what MS did, it just comes down to wanting him to have more screentime.

Second, I disagree that objecting to not seeing MS playing Vala provided that they set up the situation of Vala being in Daniel's body, means that you must also object to seeing MS and CB instead the one time no one will ever see them again guest stars. Two different things. No, I don't think you are supposed to see the person who's inside the body. That technique in Avalon had (imo) nothing to do with what we're supposed to see (we're supposed to assume that we're seeing what the characters see), but everything to do with the fact that you don't have a minor guest star have the bulk of screentime over one of the main stars and a special guest star. So, it's not because we see who's inhabiting the body (why would we see that?) , the reason why we saw MS and CB in Avalon instead of the people who played Harrid and Sallis is simply because the actors who played Harrid and Sallis weren't important. MS and CB were.

And, like I said, they had all the scenes on the planet itself. Having MS play Vala at the SGC would not have taken away CB's opportunity to act, or take away the chance to re-establish Vala as a character, imo. Because she would have had the chance to do some fine acting on the planet. Also, MS would not be playing Daniel. He'd be playing Vala. So, after the initial thinking of him as Daniel, we'd think of him as Vala. Just like in Lifeboat, I never thought of MS as Daniel. He was Martise, Tryan, and Keenan. Or, in Holiday, CJ spent part of the episode being Jack, and I had no problem thinking of him as Jack. And, when RDA was Daniel briefly, he was Daniel.

Or, like I've said, they could have just sidestepped the whole thing by not putting Vala in Daniel's body. Let some walk on actor playing a scientist or something be the one to have Vala inhabit his body, if they couldn't think of any other way to do it. Or, find some other way to tell the story without Vala having to be in anyone's body. Who knows what kind of technology the Ori have, or tptb could invent? They could have had some kind of technology that allowed Vala to come back as a holographic image, which would be kind of like being out of phase, only they could see her and hear her. And, I'm just throwing out ideas. These may not be good ones, or viable ones, but there are other ways they could have done it that wouldn't require the tactic of Vala being inside Daniel's body. But, as long as they set up a situation where anyone is in Daniel's body, I will always feel it's a mistake not to let MS play it. Again, it comes down to the idea of not letting a singer sing in a musical where the singer is acting the part of a singer.

I'm with Hatcheter and some other people here. Why change something what was established at the beginning of the season? That would be completely illogical and wrong. And it doesn't matter that parts of Salis and Harrid were played by minor guest stars. Rob Cooper's decision in all these cases (Avalon pt. 2, Origin and now Crusade) was perfectly right.

[Dani347]

Because I don't think the pertinent reasoning in Avalon was that the audience is supposed to see the person who is inside the body. If that was the reason, then I'd agree, but I think the reason RCC wrote it that way is because of the actors. So, to me, it is changing things to write it this way. If someone minor guest star played a character that inhabited Daniel's body, or Teal'c's, or Mitchell's or Sam's, I bet that we would see MS, CJ, BB, or AT playing the part. With maybe some brief scenes to remind people, that they're someone else, like reflections in mirrors. However, if one of the main characters is inhabiting someone else's body (played by someone who is a minor guest star) we would see the actor who is a part of the show. I don't think this has anything to do with a precedent established in an earlier episode. I think it had everything to do with the fact that this was a showcase for CB, and that Vala is not a minor guest star but a major one. Just like Lifeboat was a showcase for MS, and MS is not a minor guest star but a main character, which is why we didn't see the people who were inside of Daniel, we saw the image of Daniel. (Gets ready for someone to say that this all just comes down to me being upset that Daniel didn't have a lot of screen time)

Or, they could just not have Vala in Daniel's body. Or, in any body of the main characters. And, that particular problem would be solved.

[GhostPoet]

I thought this was just an absolutely fantastic episode. We finally get to see the ships as well as see what an Orii soldier is like. We get to see the man behind the mask as if were. It really gives them a much more human touch. Next time we see them in full armor attacking SG-1...they won't be faceless enemies...we'll "know" them by this episode.

Vala was great as always. These guys are much more of a threat than the Jaffa ever were.

Oh yeah...and i'm glad Vala got a lot of screentime playing as Jackson.

[Formerhost]

Because I don't think the pertinent reasoning in Avalon was that the audience is supposed to see the person who is inside the body. If that was the reason, then I'd agree, but I think the reason RCC wrote it that way is because of the actors. So, to me, it is changing things to write it this way. If someone minor guest star played a character that inhabited Daniel's body, or Teal'c's, or Mitchell's or Sam's, I bet that we would see MS, CJ, BB, or AT playing the part. With maybe some brief scenes to remind people, that they're someone else, like reflections in mirrors. However, if one of the main characters is inhabiting someone else's body (played by someone who is a minor guest star) we would see the actor who is a part of the show. I don't think this has anything to do with a precedent established in an earlier episode. I think it had everything to do with the fact that this was a showcase for CB, and that Vala is not a minor guest star but a major one. Just like Lifeboat was a showcase for MS, and MS is not a minor guest star but a main character, which is why we didn't see the people who were inside of Daniel, we saw the image of Daniel. (Gets ready for someone to say that this all just comes down to me being upset that Daniel didn't have a lot of screen time)

Or, they could just not have Vala in Daniel's body. Or, in any body of the main characters. And, that particular problem would be solved.

The truth is... that you're just upset that Daniel didn't have a lot of screen time. But IMO it would ruin the concept of this episode. It was Claudia's show, not Michael's.

[Dani347]

I don't know if I should assume you're being sarcastic or not.

[Formerhost]

I don't know if I should assume you're being sarcastic or not.

Not at all. But it makes me pretty sad that Daniel's fans are trying to destroy my enjoyment of this episode, which for me personally is the best episode of the entire season at the moment. I really love Daniel's character and MS, but this episode was meant to be Claudia's episode, so just accept it.

[Dani347]

Oh, my goodness!!! I'm not trying to destroy your enjoyment of anything. My comments have not one single, solitary, minute thing to do with anyone else's view of the show. I don't waste my time trying to stop anyone from enjoying anything. I just post my personal view, and post my enjoyment or lack of. I don't think that someone who complains about something I like is trying to destroy my enjoyment. I assume they happen to think differently from me. I also don't think people who liked that CB played the scenes at the SGC are trying to "destroy" how I feel.

And, as my signature says, if I don't like something, I will NOT just accept it. No way.

And, btw, I'm sure there are Daniel fans that are perfectly fine with how the episode went. And, people who don't like Daniel any better than any other character who feel like I do, and non Daniel fans who hate the episode for reasons that have nothing to do with this issue.

[Hatcheter]

Because I don't think the pertinent reasoning in Avalon was that the audience is supposed to see the person who is inside the body. If someone minor guest star played a character that inhabited Daniel's body, or Teal'c's, or Mitchell's or Sam's, I bet that we would see MS, CJ, BB, or AT playing the part. With maybe some brief scenes to remind people, that they're someone else, like reflections in mirrors. However, if one of the main characters is inhabiting someone else's body (played by someone who is a minor guest star) we would see the actor who is a part of the show.

You're right on the money so far. There have been a lot of episodes on both Stargates where one of the stars is somehow possessed. They have always used the star to protray the possession, whatever the circumstances of that possession are, because that was always highly relevant to the plot itself. In the aforementioned 'Lifeboat', the episode was about Daniel being possessed by multiple entities. In 'Holliday', a mind switching device has Richard Dean Anderson playing Teal'c and Chris Judge playing Jack O'Neill. In Atlantis' 'The Gift', Rachel Lutrell played the Wraith-possessed Teyla, and Torri Higgenson and Joe Flannigan played the possessed Weir and Sheppard in 'The Long Goodbye'.

But in all those situations, who was possessed was significant in and of itself. In 'Crusade', the person who did the possessing was more important.

I don't think this has anything to do with a precedent established in an earlier episode. I think it had everything to do with the fact that this was a showcase for CB, and that Vala is not a minor guest star but a major one.

And this is where our opinions diverge. Yes, it was an episode to showcase Vala, and the plot points she was there to establish, but it was also keeping with prescedent.

All of the above possession examples were different situations, using various mechanisms, for significantly different thematic effect. The Ancient communication device used in 'Avalon Part II', 'Origin', and now in 'Crusade' was established as a plot tool functioning in a certain way: we the viewer see the possessor, not the possessed. Thematic honesty required them to do the same thing again.

Plus, the production aspect of the issue is significant. Michael Shanks is a very good actor, and has done well in the past portraying different characters. But he hasn't spent an entire episode mimicking an established character's minute physical and emotional manerisms and behaviors. Especially not a pregnant character. Ultimately, all it would have been was a mimic, and would have been less genuine, I think.

Or, they could just not have Vala in Daniel's body. Or, in any body of the main characters. And, that particular problem would be solved.

But that would require ginning up a new set of circumstances, which could entirely reek of deus ex machina. Instead, they used already established (and much less DEM) plot devices. It was all laid out neatly by Carter in her first scene of the episode. Daniel and Vala hadn't possessed two random people in that village. They possessed the two who had the stones in their possession. Likewise, Carter had recreated the stone Daniel had used, so he was the only person who could possibly be reached this way.

Now that I think about, how did Daniel and Vala end up in the appropriate gender of host in 'Avalon Part II'? Luck? Imagine Daniel wearing that dress.

[Dani347]

Well, I'll just say I disagree, because I think it's better if I just stop talking about this. Besides I've pretty much laid out how I feel.

[valaCB]

Well, I'll just say I disagree, because I think it's better if I just stop talking about this. Besides I've pretty much laid out how I feel.

[michael]

finally, we had to wait the all season to go back to old " the earth is doomed" factor that i liked about the show. Can't wait for that space battle in Camelot.

[betjam]

I enjoyed this episode and it was waaaaaay better than watching a clip show. Good tie in to the first few episodes (referencing Daniel's speech and how someone was listening). I liked how in the end, Vala comes up with a quick lie, without any hesitation ("They made me do it!") and completely sells it. So next season, we know we can never completely trust what she's saying, even if she's on our side.

I was wondering the whole episode what was going on with Vala's body and if Daniel was experiencing anything or just trapped inside her, with her unconscious. It seems like she was just sitting there at the table, if she was able to pull the stone. Or did someone else?

And was SG-1 concerned about her at the end? Or was she small potatoes to what Earth was about to face?

The actor that played her husband looked familiar. Someone said L&O, but I don't watch that.