Stronghold (914)

[Skydiver]

i'm watching bloodlines right now adn i'm seeing a similarity between cam and daniel.

ok, in bloodlines, when they're at the temple, daniel goes all 'jaffa revenge' and shoots the tank of symbiotes....thus endangering sam and the rest of the team by exposing them.

i'm willing to bet that jack jumped danny's tush once he found out what he did, but we never saw it

it's very similar to what cam did in a way. acted rashly and endangered others

[Shep'sSocks]

I have to speak up about the peer pressure. I didn't see the issue as peer pressure at all. Sure his friend was pressuring him in a ribbing sort of way to tell him about his secret job. But the friend was going to die soon -- could be that very day, even. You can't predict when an aneurism will burst. And he had wanted to be in the program that Cam went into, and he'd pieced together enough information to have made a lot of correct guesses.

I guess, I see it as granting a dying friend a last wish. I don't see it as succombing to peer pressure. I see it as being compassionate and being a friend. Landry gave Cam clearance, and the guy was going to go into the program before he was injured anyway, so it's not like Cam downloaded his memories into gossipy Aunt Edna or something. I thought it was a really nice moment when the friend got to really see what it was like to be part of SG-1.

I saw it as guilt that his friend got hurt and Cameron wanted to do something for him.

[majorsal]

I don't think the clones need to actually have symbiotes.

but how are the baal clone's voices all goauldy-like then?




sally

[Shep'sSocks]

One of those voicebox things, maybe?

[Nathan]

Overall good episode. Right amount of angst, and thankfully this episode didn't focus on Sam's love life.

Mitchell's run for it was .... unusual. Especially for a Lt Col. But given his anger at the loss of his friend and the fact that another friend was about to be lost, I can see how anger and a desire to save one friend when he wasn't able to save another can overwhelm his sense of logic.

So far I'm loving Season 9, I hope season 10 maintains this level of great episodes.

[Skydiver]

that's what scares me. ok, so they cloned baal...i don't see how they could have cloned two separate entities in the same body (the host and the snake) which means, at least how i understand things, the clones should be goauldless...which means no flanged voice.

which suggests that the REAL baal was killed. And i sincerely hope that it's just careless production and a plot hole cause i don't want him to be dead. Baal is, to me, the only real classic villian we have left.

the ori are....the oreos and the lucian alliance will jsut set things up for some farscapy leather clad space adventures, probably wtih some space ship i expect them to steal early in s10

baal is the last bastion of classic stargate so i really hope he's not gone

[ellenrose]

Mitchell's run for it - made sense to me ( I am not a military person though). He saw a chance to take out the guy on the hill with the big gun - he checked with the soldiers next to him ( I noted this as just watched the ep) who nodded they would back him up and he took off with them covering him. It was a quickly planned move that worked. Good idea I would say. There was no time to check with Sam for the order as she was on the other side with Daniel.

Liked the scenes in the hospital with Cameron and Fergie. Both actors were very good in those scenes. I have always liked Reed Diamond as an actor. Mitchell smashing the glass worked for me. He was upset plus I am sure that being in a hospital must be very hard for him. He spent a long time in one with his injuries plus all that time visiting his Dad in a military hospital as well. Must have been so hard to visit a dying friend and need to put on a happy sort of face. Cam did not accept his own disability, nor did his Dad but he must accept the fact that his friend who was injured saving him must die. I might smash something too.

We have seen another side of Mitchell now. In Ripple Effect the two Mitchells seemed to like each other/themselves while goofing off like brothers over the silly juice story. In this story Mitchell is not so sure about himself - not so sure he has made the right decisions in the past and yet is suffering the consequences. Plus survivor guilt - as his friend warned him. He must deal with that too.

I wonder if Mitchell will ever let himself get really close to the rest of the team? He may be holding back a bit now. Just a thought.

[ChillinTheMost]

Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.

I see your point and I don't disagree; I just don't see it as heinous an offense as some others do, probably because I don't think he was risking the lives of others any more than they were at risk for being on the mission in the first place. I don't have every episode memorized, but I'm sure at some point someone yelled, "Cover me!" and ran out into a firefight without giving the team time to discuss it. So, Mitchell didn't yell "Cover me!" but that also means that he didn't expect them to risk their lives laying down cover fire while he did the same thing the person yelling, "Cover me!" did. I guess because I see many westerns/action movies that do this, that it didn't affect me like it did some people.

It wasn't the smartest thing and, yes, he should have radioed Sam to tell her what he was doing, but I don't see it as an egregious offense. He was impetuous, but he saw something that needed doing and he did it. For the record, I would have had no problem if later Sam had told him what he did was wrong.

[ChillinTheMost]

i actually found baal's strategy to be most intrigueing. and i really hope he's not dead. 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' and it's great that baal can think that forward. he's like maybourne, who was a cliche until chain reaction and desperate measures where he started to help the 'good guys'....when the situation warranted it...

I liked Ba'al's strategy, too. He wants to stop the Ori because he has big plans of his own and the Ori could ruin them, but that still makes the Ori the mutual enemy.

I'm not sure I could compare him with Maybourne, though. Maybourne did the wrong things, but I think his reasons were honorable [at least until everything turned against him]. I think Maybourne was doing what he really thought was right for the country. He got greedy when things went bad, but I don't doubt that patriotism was his initial motivation.

About this making him 3-dimensional though, I totally agree.

[ChillinTheMost]

Well, it seems that I am the one who needs to be corrected. I just rewatched it just now, and that second time really cleared some things up for me.

He's not hot-headed, as you said. From what I could tell, Cam hates feeling helpless, and will channel that physically. That's why there's a broken coffee machine now in the hospital.

As for the women in his life, I see him as sort of, kinda, maybe a ladies man. Or a potential for being one. Scenes off the top of my head: Jaffa woman that passes him in Dakara in Avalon, Part I; the scientist from Collateral Damage; that "second base" comment he made in Ripple Effect; the flight attendant that he had a private moment with; and the possibility of Cam/Lam said by the official magazine sometime ago. Now, I may be wrong about this, that this is normal, but that's the way it seems to me right now.

He certainly has the potential for being a ladies' man! LOL. But I don't see it happening on screen, yet. Yes, he's been bold about showing his appreciation for women and made allusions to past encounters [not all successful, it seems], but he's in his late 30's, early 40's and I would expect him to have had a few liaisons. This may be developed in the future and you may well be proven correct, I'm just not seeing it now.

The peer pressure is something that, IMO, could've been handled better by Cam. It wasn't necessary to show his friend his experiences while with the SGC at this time. His friend knows all about the cover ups, and doesn't need much convincing that the government is keeping a big secret. Yes, his friend is dying, but he could just hold out for a little longer, right? I guess it depends from person to person.

I never said that Cam can't handle pressure. It's just in this case of peer pressure, he fell a litttle short for me. It would've been more entertaining if his friend would not know now, come back later in another episode, actually DYING, then know the secret.

I was surprised that this is where they took it [actually showing him the memories], but it wasn't peer pressure, it was guilt. It was because his friend was dying that Mitchell was having these adventures. He wanted to share the memories with the person he felt deserved to have them.

Disclaimer: All opinions shown in this post can change over time.

LOL. That's why I love discussing this stuff on boards! I find my opinions tweaked and I gain an understanding of why people react the way they do. I may not agree, but I can understand why they feel the way they do, and I can respect that.

from another post... As I said, my opinion might change. For me, it was a bit of peer pressure on Cam. I think I need to watch the episode again. I'l get back to you.

And having to watch the episodes again is never a bad thing...

[ChillinTheMost]

i think that sam was exasperated with him...but also knew that a ticked off cam would get teal'c back. and that their plan hadn't considered the hatak taking off

she's well used to the boys doing what they WANT to do

still doesnt' mean that she shouldn't have given cam a rather large piece ofher mind, probably ending with 'you pull that crap again, i am not going to risk other lives bailing out your rambo-immitating tush!' and 'you're lucky that colonel O'neill wasn't here wasnt' here because he'd have you scrubbing the toilets on level 25 for the next month'

then she'd tell him to take as much time as he needed for his friend's funeral and tell him that the little memory vcr better be back at the sgc as soon as possible

As much as I'm defending Mitchell, I would have had no problem with this scenerio.

[Skydiver]

even though we didn't see it, i do hope tha sam jumped his tush. while i'm sure seh can sympathize with his personal issues, if he didn't think he coud handle a mission he had no business coming along.

he needs to learn to compartmentalize his feelings, just like sam had to in the beginning

[Uber]

even though we didn't see it, i do hope tha sam jumped his tush. while i'm sure seh can sympathize with his personal issues, if he didn't think he coud handle a mission he had no business coming along.

he needs to learn to compartmentalize his feelings, just like sam had to in the beginning

But we needed to see it Skydiver. Further I don't remember Sam ever EVER endangering a mission or the team because she was having a bad day. I don't remember her ever putting her personal feelings above the team for that matter...nor do I ever remember her disrespecting Jack and disregarding his orders because of her bad mood.

We needed Sam to come up to him and ream him for rushing on ahead and forcing her and Daniel to rush after him because he ignored her and didn't wait for backup. Had it been Jack, he would have come up to Mitchell and smacked him around with his hat yelling at the top of his lungs berating him for his stupidity...and would have lectured him on the difference between heroism and foolishness. I don't think Sam would have been as harsh but I do think she should have said something.

Here's my little scenario as to what to me would have made more sense...

Sam (angry): What the hell were you doing?
Cam: Got us here, didn't I?
Sam: Not the point, Mitchell.
Cam: Sam, I'm not in a mood to...
Sam (interrupting): Cameron, I'm sorry about your friend. I really am. But the next time you unnecessarily endanger yourself, the team and the mission because you're having a bad day...
*Noises from outside*
Cam: Uh Sam...I know I deserve this, but could it wait until we get home?
*Sam finishes with the crystals and glares at him briefly before tempering her emotions*
Sam: If we all go we could be cut off with no way of getting back off the ship.
Daniel: So, business as usual then?
*Cam and Daniel provide cover fire as Sam sets a timed charge on the crystals*
Sam: Okay...let's go!
*the three as a TEAM go on the ring platform and a second or so after they ring up to the ship, the charge detonates...taking out the crystals and the Jaffa who entered the small room. Sam, Daniel and Cam as a TEAM go throughout the ship, taking out the Jaffa until they all come upon Teal'c and Bra'tac and Ba'al...the rest would be essentially the same*

The point is that Mitchell is supposedly a Colonel, supposedly with training and supposedly qualified to be on the frontline team defending earth. He should be able to set aside his personal feelings to get the job done not charge up the hill in hero mode, disregarding the person leading the operation and ignoring common sense all for the sake of showing he's still brash and impetuous.

He proved to me at least he has no business being on any team of this nature...at least not until he can grow up and deal with his issues without endangering the others.

[GhostPoet]

Was what Mitchell did reckless? Yes...but he also saw the opportunity.

If Mitchell hadn't pulled a rambo...Baal's ship would have taken off long before SG-1 (who was pinned down) could have gotten to it in time.

It wwas Mitchell's moving in to take out the gun turrent that allowed for SG-1 to make it to the ship in time. After that there was no time to regroup, they had to get to the ship right away. Not stand around dicussing it. And once the team got there, Sam told him to go.

[scifi woman]

Was what Mitchell did reckless? Yes...but he also saw the opportunity.

If Mitchell hadn't pulled a rambo...Baal's ship would have taken off long before SG-1 (who was pinned down) could have gotten to it in time.

It wwas Mitchell's moving in to take out the gun turrent that allowed for SG-1 to make it to the ship in time. After that there was no time to regroup, they had to get to the ship right away. Not stand around dicussing it. And once the team got there, Sam told him to go.

I agree.

Folks, this is Sci-Fi Channel ENTERTAINMENT -- not the Military Channel.

Cam's actions were a throw-back to all the WWII movies, (John Wayne, Gary Cooper, et al recklessly taking out the machine gun on the hilll....) you know, the "stuff dreams are made of". In this particular case, turning on your TV and watching one hour of WOW entertainment.

Whether he should have made that charge up the hill or not isn't the real question here. This question that the PTB really want to know is:

Were you entertained? Did you enjoy the hour watching our SG-1 team fighting, screwing up, making mistakes, getting caught by the bad guys and getting saved?

I sure was.