Stronghold (914)

[ChillinTheMost]

yes, but it is still highly unprofessional response.
I just figured he had the guilt thing going so he was trying to get himself killed.... I know I have seen\heard that on some other show and it seemed like the same thing... Very notsogood for his character.

Maybe, but it pulled the two stories together.

so, for anyone that can answer: why was mitchell so hot-headed in the battle scene? what was he trying to prove?

He wasn't trying to prove anything and he wasn't hot-headed. He was rash and impetuous, but not hot-headed.

Mitchell's friend was dying because he was injured saving Mitchell's life. In Mitchell's opinion, it would have been his friend that would be on the SG-1 team if this had not happened, not himself. I think Mitchell saw that the gunman had to be taken out and ran up the hill without consulting others because at that moment, he felt he was expendible. He felt that he shouldn't be there in the first place and if anybody was going to die doing this, it should be himself that takes the chance. I don't think that he was suicidal, just that he felt expendible. I don't think he was near enough to Sam to tell her what he was going to do [and couldn't hear her holler to stop] and I don't think he radioed her because he just wanted to do it. He wasn't thinking straight, just that if anybody was going to die, it was going to be him, and he wasn't going to watch another friend and team member take his place again. It was wrong not to contact Sam, but, again, I don't think he was thinking straight, just that he was going to do this to try to take the others out of danger. I certainly don't think it was because he in any way doubted that Sam was running this operation. Back in the SGC, when he was thinking more rationally, he joined the ranks following Sam without question or hesitation.

In the ring room, I think he was trying for the old "my calvary is behind you" trick to get the Jaffa to turn around. Of course, this was the old, "'my calvary is behind you' when it really IS behind you" trick that is a stall tactic to make the Jaffa hesitate in shooting while giving Sam and Daniel the second that they would need upon running into the room to size up the situation and shoot the right guys. Sam and Daniel were going to run to the ring room when the coast was clear anyway, that was the mission, so Mitchell running there first did not put Sam or Daniel in any more danger than they would have been if he hadn't done anything. His actions cleared the way, they did not endanger others.

In my interpretation of the scene, I'm not saying that what Mitchell did was right, but I don't think it was done out of disrepect for Sam or her leadership and I don't think it endangered anyone but himself and I think it was directly related to how he felt guilty for his friend's impending death and that maybe he could ease some of the guilt by saving these friends.

[Dani347]

I really didn't get a suicidal or expendable vibe from Mitchell's actions. I think, aside from wanting to give visual confirmation to him saying he was impatient, that this was the result of his buddy saying that this is who he (Mitchell) is, and it's not a bad thing. I think he was saying that it was one of those things that done one way could be bad, but another way could be a good thing. Like, Daniel can be persistant, which is a good thing, but flip it around and the same trait can be stubborness.

I actually think I would have prefered the friend not tell him that this was a good thing. He could still have tried to alleviate the guilt without saying that. Because it made it seem like Mitchell felt that being impatient wasn't such a bad thing after all, and he should just accept that part of himself and use it. I would have prefered that he did it not because someone said it was okay, but because he was still just impatient. Because he hadn't learned the lesson to hold back. But, they never presented that as the lesson, so he didn't have a chance to fail this time at learning it. I wouldn't want him to learn the lesson in one episode by one deathbed visit with a friend. I know this sounds crazy that I would want him to still have this fault when he's supposed to be the team leader, but I'm with Tok'Ra Hostess in the potential for dramatic possibilities. They wouldn't have to have written him showing impatience in the way they did, but I don't want him to just be able to shed his flaws with too much ease. And, if they wrote no one sanctioning it, I think it would have been better. I'm still glad that Sam's attitude wasn't that what he did was okay or right, just that he might as well go ahead and finish the job (not play the hero, not singlehandedly save the day, just be the last piece of the puzzle).

[ChillinTheMost]

Cam didn't even know how to operate the rings so not a well thought out plan on his part on many levels.

They were broken, Sam had to take it apart and play with the crystals or whatever to get it to work. We saw that Mitchell knew how to work the rings in the first episodes.

We learn various things about Cam: he went to the Academy, he's reckless, hot-headed, tends to move from one woman to another, and tends to crack under peer pressure. Even though he could've stood by his case a little bit longer, IMO, it was inevitable for this to happen.

When did we see all this? I'll give you reckless and rash, but hot-headed? Have we seen him lose his temper? Maybe when he broke the glass on the coffee machine, but I saw that as frustration more than a temper. Where did we see that he tends to move from one woman to another? Because he was attracted to one woman in almost a year? When did he crack under peer pressure? I'm totally lost on some of these allegations. Perhaps you can give me some scenes to illustrate your points? I'm willing to be corrected.

I think that argument might work up until the point he took off for the pyramid without backup.

But wasn't it taking off? If he had waited for everyone to arrive, the ship might have left before anyone got there. As it was, they did get there, but he didn't take that chance. I do agree that someone should have gone with him onto the ship.

[Dani347]

. Where did we see that he tends to move from one woman to another? Because he was attracted to one woman in almost a year?

I haven't seen that either, and you know my objections to that whole set up. But, as far as we've seen there was no woman that he had moved on from. We got a reference in CD about the difficulties of keeping a relationship going along with work, but no clue as to how long ago possible relationship for him had been.

[DEM]

He wasn't trying to prove anything and he wasn't hot-headed. He was rash and impetuous, but not hot-headed.

hotheaded
ADJECTIVE:
1. Easily angered; quick-tempered: a hotheaded commander.
2. Impetuous; rash: a hotheaded decision.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: 4th Ed. 2000.

[Strix varia]

But wasn't it taking off? If he had waited for everyone to arrive, the ship might have left before anyone got there. As it was, they did get there, but he didn't take that chance. I do agree that someone should have gone with him onto the ship.

Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.

[Skydiver]

Am I the only one who wants the Jaffa to submit to Baal?

Also, the little skirmish at the end reminded of the old days when the Goa'uld were in their prime.

i actually found baal's strategy to be most intrigueing. and i really hope he's not dead. 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' and it's great that baal can think that forward. he's like maybourne, who was a cliche until chain reaction and desperate measures where he started to help the 'good guys'....when the situation warranted it.

all of a sudden harry had depth.

from his very inception baal was scarier than anubis (who was, quite frankly, a joke) and this ability of his to 'switch sides as the situation warrants' makes him unpredictible and interesting.

and, because of that, i really hope he's not really dead. cause if he is then they wasted a good character just as he became interesting

[BigBadBob]

he's like maybourne, who was a cliche until chain reaction and desperate measures where he started to help the 'good guys'....when the situation warranted it.

all of a sudden harry had depth.

he was still an ass. Helped us, but still just an ass.

[Shep'sSocks]

Having watched the rest of the episode, it suffered from being two episodes in one rather than what it should have been, two separate episodes.

The Jaffa story was interesting and became even more so when my beloved Ba'al showed up and again hammered home what a sensible and forward thinking Goa'uld he is. So, one of the clones got dead. Pity, less of them to go around for us, but he can always create another.

The Mitchell story could have been a showcase for Ben Browder who does this tortured soul thing so very well. Lots of flashbacks, etc. Reed Diamond was great, but then he always is. But this suffered greatly from being the B-story. It needed a lot more angst.

[Agent_Dark]

Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.

That's the best analogy I've heard of it

[KillerMercury]

When did we see all this? I'll give you reckless and rash, but hot-headed? Have we seen him lose his temper? Maybe when he broke the glass on the coffee machine, but I saw that as frustration more than a temper. Where did we see that he tends to move from one woman to another? Because he was attracted to one woman in almost a year? When did he crack under peer pressure? I'm totally lost on some of these allegations. Perhaps you can give me some scenes to illustrate your points? I'm willing to be corrected.

Well, it seems that I am the one who needs to be corrected. I just rewatched it just now, and that second time really cleared some things up for me.

He's not hot-headed, as you said. From what I could tell, Cam hates feeling helpless, and will channel that physically. That's why there's a broken coffee machine now in the hospital.

As for the women in his life, I see him as sort of, kinda, maybe a ladies man. Or a potential for being one. Scenes off the top of my head: Jaffa woman that passes him in Dakara in Avalon, Part I; the scientist from Collateral Damage; that "second base" comment he made in Ripple Effect; the flight attendant that he had a private moment with; and the possibility of Cam/Lam said by the official magazine sometime ago. Now, I may be wrong about this, that this is normal, but that's the way it seems to me right now.

The peer pressure is something that, IMO, could've been handled better by Cam. It wasn't necessary to show his friend his experiences while with the SGC at this time. His friend knows all about the cover ups, and doesn't need much convincing that the government is keeping a big secret. Yes, his friend is dying, but he could just hold out for a little longer, right? I guess it depends from person to person.

I never said that Cam can't handle pressure. It's just in this case of peer pressure, he fell a litttle short for me. It would've been more entertaining if his friend would not know now, come back later in another episode, actually DYING, then know the secret.


Disclaimer: All opinions shown in this post can change over time.

[ShardsofGlass]

The peer pressure is something that, IMO, could've been handled better by Cam. It wasn't necessary to show his friend his experiences while with the SGC at this time. His friend knows all about the cover ups, and doesn't need much convincing that the government is keeping a big secret. Yes, his friend is dying, but he could just hold out for a little longer, right? I guess it depends from person to person.

I never said that Cam can't handle pressure. It's just in this case of peer pressure, he fell a litttle short for me. It would've been more entertaining if his friend would not know now, come back later in another episode, actually DYING, then know the secret.


Disclaimer: All opinions shown in this post can change over time.

I have to speak up about the peer pressure. I didn't see the issue as peer pressure at all. Sure his friend was pressuring him in a ribbing sort of way to tell him about his secret job. But the friend was going to die soon -- could be that very day, even. You can't predict when an aneurism will burst. And he had wanted to be in the program that Cam went into, and he'd pieced together enough information to have made a lot of correct guesses.

I guess, I see it as granting a dying friend a last wish. I don't see it as succombing to peer pressure. I see it as being compassionate and being a friend. Landry gave Cam clearance, and the guy was going to go into the program before he was injured anyway, so it's not like Cam downloaded his memories into gossipy Aunt Edna or something. I thought it was a really nice moment when the friend got to really see what it was like to be part of SG-1.

[Uber]

Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.

I figured out who Cam really is.

Remember Proving Ground? Grogan? That's who Mitchell symbolizes to me.

Sam should have reamed him out and if she weren't so dang compassionate for his loss, she would have (I hope).

They're going to gloss everything over I'm sure...but I certainly wouldn't want to have him watching my back.

[KillerMercury]

I have to speak up about the peer pressure. I didn't see the issue as peer pressure at all. Sure his friend was pressuring him in a ribbing sort of way to tell him about his secret job. But the friend was going to die soon -- could be that very day, even. You can't predict when an aneurism will burst. And he had wanted to be in the program that Cam went into, and he'd pieced together enough information to have made a lot of correct guesses.

I guess, I see it as granting a dying friend a last wish. I don't see it as succombing to peer pressure. I see it as being compassionate and being a friend. Landry gave Cam clearance, and the guy was going to go into the program before he was injured anyway, so it's not like Cam downloaded his memories into gossipy Aunt Edna or something. I thought it was a really nice moment when the friend got to really see what it was like to be part of SG-1.

As I said, my opinion might change. For me, it was a bit of peer pressure on Cam. I think I need to watch the episode again. I'l get back to you.

[Skydiver]

i think that sam was exasperated with him...but also knew that a ticked off cam would get teal'c back. and that their plan hadn't considered the hatak taking off

she's well used to the boys doing what they WANT to do

still doesnt' mean that she shouldn't have given cam a rather large piece ofher mind, probably ending with 'you pull that crap again, i am not going to risk other lives bailing out your rambo-immitating tush!' and 'you're lucky that colonel O'neill wasn't here wasnt' here because he'd have you scrubbing the toilets on level 25 for the next month'

then she'd tell him to take as much time as he needed for his friend's funeral and tell him that the little memory vcr better be back at the sgc as soon as possible