Collateral Damage (912)

[majorsal]

I didn't really think much about the inappropriateness of Cam's behavior and what it potentially says about his character's judgement until I read your post, but then I realized something. Can you even imagine Daniel, Teal'c or Sam acting this same way at a party on a diplomatic mission to an alien planet? Hmmm? Going home with the first available hottie while on duty?

In terms of any ordinary scifi show plot device, I wouldn't care. But this is SG1! They are supposed to be the elite team of the SGC and representatives of our entire planet. Seems a bit tawdry for a team member somehow.

Now I'm not saying that Cam doesn't deserve to get some from time to time. He's a good-looking, healthy American boy after all (yum!). But in retrospect, his choices in this situation seem very ill-advised to me.

Unless he was taking Jack at his word that once he joined SG1 he could "do anything he wanted."

i didn't think about that either. i think i was just so happy to see a serious mitchell again that that aspect kind of went over my head. until now.

(still think the ep was great)



sally

[binkpmmc]

There are some of us that beleive that one of the reasons Stargate was better then other shows was they rarely delved into the cliche "alien chick who thinks the hero is hot". Many of the earlier eps where it happend "Brief candel" and "Need" had extenuating circumstances. And episodes where it happened where there were no extenuating circumstances "affinity" (earth chick alien hero) were really not that good of a Stargate ep... IMHO.

Exactly - Jack was drugged in Brief Candle and Daniel was high off the sarc in the counter examples provided by Arative above, you can also dig up Hathor but Damniel was drugged, as were the rest of the men, by Hathor.

The pont is that this show never had to stoop to making it part of the characters personality. Mitchell, while on a diplomatic mission no less, goes off for a quickie with a female alien he knows thismuchabout (another example of lack of judgement on his part, IMO) but TPTB have to get their cheesy sci-fi cliche in re: the "making out with the hot alien chick" and they give no excuse to Mitchell, he is sober andhe has not been drugged.

Vala, well there's a complete package of a character, uninfluenced by drugs or sarc narcotic high, she's just written as a cheap, sleazy, female sci-fi caricature. Again something they never had to stoop to before (except for that brief disaster named Anise and thank God they had more sense back then and jettisoned her A$$ as quick as they added her - Vala alas we are stuck with because TPTB have now apparently decided to go full-steam ahead into the world of sci-fi cliche and cheese.

[binkpmmc]

Since I'm sure you all are just waiting with baited breath to hear my thoughts on Collateral Damage, I'll delay your moment of divine rapture no longer. (Hey, I like my delusions, so don't ruin them for me.)

My feelings on this one are rather mixed. For all it had going for it, I can't help but be overcome by the boring tediousness which seems to accompany Cameron Mitchell wherever he may go. For a good long while now many fans have bemoaned the lack of back story for Mitchell and have been chomping at the bit for an episode to showcase Ben Browder's talent as an actor. This episode was constructed purely to mollify such concerns on behalf of the audience, albeit in a rather static and uninteresting way. Someone previously said that this felt more like The Outer Limits than SG-1. The premise is certainly of that bent, but this lacked the moral or ethical focus that an Outer Limits story would have had. Had this one been a little more about weighing the positives and negatives of the technology, more about the inherent rightness or wrongness of everyone's actions during the course of the episode, then it would have had that "punch" that The Outer Limits often pulled off. As it is, this one lacked such an emotional core, and was the poorer for it.

I'll start by saying, as others already have, that the best part of Collateral Damage was the most welcome return of a true stand-alone episode to SG-1. No pesky Ori, no righteous Jaffa council meetings, no Goa'uld--just SG-1 by themselves on a planet. Many of the show's most important and illuminating episodes have taken place in the absence of overwhelming "big plot" elements, and much of what is characterized as the "stargate feeling" comes from the interaction with different alien cultures. Seeing it again here, I still feel that this episode structure suits the show and I wish that more future episodes would harken back to this simple, less convoluted formula. Take a new culture, add a new technology, throw in some well-defined but not overriding guest characters, and you've got yourself a nice little set-up to showcase the SG-1 team.

Of course, that's where this one hits a damned roadblock. Collateral Damage doesn't showcase the SG-1 team. It barely showcases Mitchell, and what it does tell us about him isn't necessarily gripping or endearing. The story just unfolds around the team, they play no real part in it. SG-1 is reduced merely to a group of observers, and even the tension of Mitchell's possible prosecution is swept away before it becomes an issue. The story's bite, while present for the first third of the episode, is gone after any real consequences of the murder are brushed aside. We're simply left with an exercise in pedantry, with the story plodding along from points A to B to C. Even Cam himself is stuck following the plot rather than driving it.

While I didn't really have a problem with it, my brother absolutely hated Mitchell's behavior in this one. OK, fine, he's flirting with a woman--it happens. But what's with ditching SG-1 and their diplomatic mission on the off chance that he'll get to score with the hot chick? I'm pretty sure that's not the standard way of representing your planet. Even more heinous is his offering to use Earth's political leverage to keep Dr. Varrick attached to the project. Of course, it's not because he thinks she's vital to Earth's interests or because she's being mistreated, but because he wants to ingratiate himself, personally, to her. I'm pretty sure that's not the way SG-1 traditionally acts off world either. And even when he's back at Dr. Varrick's apartment and actually articulates that "this is a mistake", he still doesn't do the right thing. Whether Cam actually had time to score with Reya before the murder is neither here nor there, it's that he fully intended to regardless of any consequences that speaks so badly to his character. Obviously there were plot concerns at work with this whole situation, but they don't erase the fact that it still happened and that Cam's actions jeopardized Earth's position with the Galarens.

As for the backstory on Cam, meh. Modest irony with the amputee father, nice relationship between father and son, bad experience with a bombing run once. I'm not sure there's anything there that's particularly unusal for most military familes. I just didn't get the feeling of anything more than an information dump from the flashbacks. And, while I recognize this to be a personal taste, I found Browder's acting while experiencing them over again to be rather vacant. I don't feel that he engaged anyone with the trauma of his past, not the SG-1 team and certainly not the audience. I'd have also preferred there to be more to the story besides Cam's past. Comparing this with how we learned about the rest of SG-1's histories in episodes like Bloodlines, Jolinar's Memories, and Crystal Skull, this one seems all the flatter to me.

Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c. I wish there was more to say about them. In the past they'd have each warranted their own paragraph, but such is not the case recently. More's the pity. They all stood around and looked nice, and they even got a word or two in edgewise occaisonally. But they played no role in the story beyond simply standing around. Sam got to babysit Cameron just like she got to babysit Orlin last week. Way to go on that one. Daniel got to chat rather pleasantly with William Atherton's character. And Teal'c got to follow Daniel around. Super. And what on earth is with Landry actually allowing Mitchell to stay on the planet after being accused of murder, then being told he's free to leave? I'm sorry, but what kind of a half-assed decision is that? Carter was absolutely right to warn Cam about being strangers to the Galarens' justice system. SG-1 has been in similar situations many, many times. Carter was right to suggest that Mitchell return to Earth. I only wish that Landry would have insisted on his return at the subsequent briefing instead of capitulating to Mitchell's overly emotional need to remain behind. Landry, first and foremost, should be protecting his people. And I don't think he did that here.

In the end, I would probably rate Collateral Damage as so-so. It did the job, but lacked any of the unique touches that SG-1 used to add to average stories. And I don't necessarily think that Mitchell was helped by the story. The character is floundering around in the Stargate Universe all by his lonesome. Here, just like in Babylon, the only way to meaningfully showcase him is to serverely and wrongly diminish all of the other characters on the show. Nobody else gets anything in Collateral Damage because Mitchell or Ben Browder needs the screen. It's the kind of thing that illustrates exactly what never happened with Jack O'neill and RDA. Somehow all of the characters got involved when he was around, and that has not been happening in Season Nine. What most aggreived me was that last scene with Mitchell. Here is a real chance for him to have some kind of meaningful interaction with anyone from his team. What the hell was Landry doing there? That should have been either Daniel, Teal'c, or Sam in that lockeroom with Cameron. Those are exactly the kind of scenes that SG-1 is missing this year, and this one was wasted. Cam is no closer to being "one of the team" after this episode, and that scene could have done it for him. What a waste.

I'm tremedously looking forward to Ripple Effect, though. Bring it on.

Absolutely dead-on and you took the words right out of my mouth and said it much more eloquently than I could have. Your points go right to the heart of so much that is worng with this show these days. People clamor for the "team" and we get them standing around wringing their hands with nothing to do and then Landry gets the pivitol moment that maybe, just maybe, could have been a moment to really make this seem like a team - what a wasted opportunty. So sad that the PTB do not see that.

I also, see once again, a horrible lack in judgement on Mitchell's part - he was on a mission representing earth and he pulls this crap with the "hot alien chick"? I really do not understand TPTB - they seem to want to degrade every character lately and while they seem desperate to pimp Mitchell they constantly give him stupid things to do that make him look like he has horrible judgment and make him look unqualified and some of his decisions and actions border on pure incompetence - I really don't get it.

[majorsal]

Cam's behavior did certainly seem out of character for an SG-1 member. However, is it possible that part of his behavior stemmed from having already had a memory of an interaction with this woman implanted in his head? The Emissary's memory was introduced when they showed them the technology. That person may have had a personal connection with the woman that made him feel like he knew her better than he actually did. He certainly had a very unusual reaction when he got to her apartment, feeling like he had been there before. It seems like there are some real gray areas in interpreting WHY Cam would be offering to walk her home and acting so familiar with a woman he had just met. On one side, there's just the "hot alien chick" factor, but on the other side, there's the "I already have memories of you in my head" factor.

edited because I just remembered whose memory was implanted in his head

good points. and i'm not even sure mitchell escorted her home 'just' so he could score with her. when they were at her house, 'she's' the one that made the actual physical contact.

i just think it was mutal attraction augmented with her being touched by him sticking up for her and him having implanted memories of her.



sally

[binkpmmc]

Well, its not cannon at least.

It is for Jack in Ascension in S5 when Carter stops him in the corridor about her house still being bugged and he gets fidgety and says he has to "pee" as for the others - nope, never.

[binkpmmc]

spoilers for s9's 'fourth horseman part 2'

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and as one of the fans they were aiming this at, i felt literal zero emotional impact. i felt that sam and daniel would have went up and shook hands or hugged him. i felt that hammond would have mentioned jack. i'm not even sure don was in the same room with them when this was filmed!

so, yeah, it was 'forced' in, so to speak, but had no depth. (just like jack's scenes in 'origin')

of course, this is just my opinion. i'm sure others loved the reunion scene.



sally

Not me I felt the same exact way you did. Did not think they were in the same room when it was filmed.

[derrickh]

It seems that most people share my thoughts about Mitchell's behavior, so I wont dwell on that aspect of the episode.

But where does SG-1 get off on passing judgement on that government? By the sounds of it, Carter, Mitchell,and Jackson all gave scathing reports against opening relations with the planet. Why? Everyone involved bent over backwards to help them at every turn. They were never stonewalled or lied to. And when the truth came out, a decision was made that was best for the society as a whole. But for some reason, this doesnt sit well with SG-1.

What did they want to happen? Would they have been happy if the husband had been executed in front of them? Did they expect the project to be scrapped because the poor guy couldn't handle seeing Mitchell sleeping with his wife?

D

[Seshat]

Not me I felt the same exact way you did. Did not think they were in the same room when it was filmed.

I thought so, too, but I was SO HAPPY to see George I didn't care.

Plus I thought that they acted their hearts out trying to look like they were actually talking to each other in real time. It reminded me of just how well the characters used to work together (and how much they truly liked each other) when they were in a room together. *sniff* At least this time the performances were spot on, even if the camera work and lighting was a bit off.

[TameFarrar]

Well after reading all the posts, thanks to those you jogged my memory on the little things I had forgotten here is what I thought of this episode.

I completely and I do mean COMPLETELY enjoyed it. and here is why

While I know it is virtually impossible these days to have an *original* idea in sci-fi I liked how this one was done. I liked how it was used to not only give us *back-story* on Cam Mitchell but to ALSO tie in OTHER Backstory from previous episodes on Cam and gave a firmer picture of the man.

what do I mean? Back at the beginning we saw flashbacks of Cam struggling to walk again after his crahs and the determination he had to do so but no real reason behind that or why he felt the need to push himself so hard. NOW we see this young boy walk into a hosipital room and to him the *Hero* of his young life has been maimed and this is a pivital moment in his young life. HOW does his Dad handle that moment? His Dad, his *Hero* smiles and makes his feel it will all be alright and he learns then the strength of a Man as it applies to his life. This is who he wants to be when he grows up.
Throughout S9 we have heard Cam utter lines like *What if I screw this up?* or something of a similar nature and I have wondered WHY?? where does that second -guessing of his own judgement come from. NOW I have a glimpse of it. Even though the character hadn't thought about that bombing incident for a long time it has still *colored* him in some way and it still haunts him that innocent people died because in the end HE is the one that pushed the button and dropped the bomb. So he likes to have ALL the information he can, he likes to work with the best and know that he has a team around him that can fill the areas he thinks he is lacking in.

This episode explained to me why this character not only still wanted to push himself to be the best he can be but why he also felt he needed the people around him that he asked for.

As for the overall episode period in no particular order:
* LOVED NO ORI!!!! I am not to impressed with the new villians nor have TPTB really as of yet made me feel to scared of them so I can take or leave them.

* I liked that Sam was as supportive of Cam as she was...BUT I felt that her character would have wanted to know more about the technology then was written.

* I had no issue with Cam walking the Dr home as we were lead to believe FROM THE TEAM COMMENTS he had the hots for her. I never really saw it just got it from the dialogue. So if they were ok with it and could rib him about it then I had no issue about it as well.

* I liked Daniel and Teal'c demanding the missing pieces of the investigation and pointing out that they wouldn't know if it was pertinent. I liked that they showed this skeptisim to the head guy.

*LOVED Walter's moment!! He is a Staff Sgt NOT a Dr nor a Medical person and it made sense he would stumble over some of that stuff BUT he did know what it all meant in the end and I liked how Gary delivered the performance.

* Was completely surprised by the killer...TPTB have for so long been so predictable that it was nice to be surprised for once

** Ben Browder EXCELLENT performance after the memory of the bombing!! This was a BAD, AWFUL memory and he really conveyed that it was an awful experience to have been through. I felt that this character had some depth and THAT is a BOON for me on SG. Sam had her moment for me in *Singularity*, Teal'c in *Avatar* and well I haven't really seen one for Daniel as of yet. Its that moment where you feel that the character is completely exposed and raw and what you see is it... the end of the emotional rope at that moment. Hopefully Cam will show something that is in the present and TPTB will give Daniel something yet to be done.

I never had huge expectations for StarGate to be this dramatic WOW piece of television and I have always been entertained. But with the coming of other Sci-Fi shows lately and enjoying some of the darker drama I am finding that I do want more character *meat* and for me even with a recycled plot idea SG gave me some of that this time around

I know I have seen this kind of thing in the past on other shows but due to the overall performances by all I was okay with it

[jckfan55]

I thought so, too, but I was SO HAPPY to see George I didn't care.

Plus I thought that they acted their hearts out trying to look like they were actually talking to each other in real time. It reminded me of just how well the characters used to work together (and how much they truly liked each other) when they were in a room together. *sniff* At least this time the performances were spot on, even if the camera work and lighting was a bit off.

You really did get a sense of the love and respect from Daniel and Sam toward Hammond & the sense that they miss him. Maybe his comment about

Spoiler:

taking care of Landry

was to help give us the stamp of approval for him.
Interesting comments about Mitchell's behavior. He definitely was on the clock. The writers wanted them together & there wasn't a way to bring him back to the planet without being on the job, so they just went ahead and "kirked" the thing. Glad I'm not the only one who thought dress uniforms would have been in order for a "reception." Doesn't hurt that dress uniforms and suits on Daniel & Teal'c look good.

[Seshat]

You really did get a sense of the love and respect from Daniel and Sam toward Hammond & the sense that they miss him. Maybe his comment about

Spoiler:

taking care of Landry

was to help give us the stamp of approval for him.

Yes, I felt that wonderful deep understanding of each other's characters and exactly how they would respond in that situation. Made me think that one side was filmed first and actually SHOWN to the other side so they could respond appropriately and with real emotion (instead of a stand-in just feeding them the lines during filming). I love little production tricks like that, and give them points for pulling it off almost perfectly. They can't help it if the fans have expert eyes! I think some of us are getting as good as judging the correct camera angles and lighting flaws as the guys and gals who work on the show.

[captainpash]

This ep was totally predictable. The only thing was that her husband was the one that killed her but the other stuff I figured out pretty quick. The actor that plays Cameron as a kid didn't look anything, anything like Cameron as an adult. Although it was cool that we got some backstory on Cam. Was the part on the jet all CG? Because if it was It looked very, very real.

It was totaly CG. Execpt for the head shots, which were done in a mock up. The cockpit was tinted out, so they didn't have to worry about animating his head, and such.

[starfox]

I just want to get out before the initial squee-ness of this ep dissipates; I'll read the rest of the thread and make any necessary replies tomorrow.


Ohmygosh my love for Cameron Mitchell is now official. *hugs Ben Browder for being awesome* There were maybe one or two lines that didn't come off perfect to me, but overall a very good performance. He does shocked, "oh god, what did I just do" very well. I was impressed with those parts of the ep, as well as with the anger and the determination to get justice. *applauds*

Without even looking at the rest of this thread, I'm willing to bet someone has complained about Cam getting the girl at the beginning of the ep. The word "kirking" has probably been used. But I thought that it worked rather well. Okay, not a good idea for the team's leader to go wandering off around an alien neighborhood more or less on his own, but I'm willing to look past that. As far as the romance aspect goes, I had no problems with it. He's a gorgeous man and the character has an adorable mix of manners and this little boy enthusiasm, and he had been rather solicitous towards Reya. It's easy to see her being interested in him. And although we saw them headed in a sex-erly direction, we also saw Cam say that they shouldn't, we saw her bid him good-night (that's where the memory splice was), and she was wearing the same outfit when she was murdered that she had been wearing when they kissed, meaning that there was no sex. Ladies and gentleman, we have found the unthinkble: A Stargate man who knows how to say "no."

Speaking of saying "no", there is a definite parallel between the memory splicing and rape. The intrusiveness, the violation. And then to have a grisly murder memory implanted? It's a pretty dark place they went to with having this be what Cam experiences. I don't think I've seen Stargate go this dark before, but I'm glad they did in this one. It made it a more moving episode. They took it to a different place here, and I loved it.

One tiny gripe. Making Dr. Marell murder Dr. Varrick out of jealousy? It was a twist, as I had been going with the government conspiracy angle, but it was the wrong one. A government conspiracy would have been a better motive in my opinion, the petty jealousy just kind of brought the ep down for me.
But then again, the fact that the government was still willing to cover the whole thing up made them that much more frightening. Hmmm...I must ruminate on this longer; can't decide whether or not that was a good element.

Cam's relationship with his father was so perfect to me. It worked so well, and showed us what makes Cam so Cam.

Undecided as to where I stand on the Cam-Landry scene at the end. Necessary for closure, but I wasn't thrilled with it on Landry's part.


This episode was old-school sci-fi sci-fi to me. It had a definite Twilight Zone/Outer Limits feel, especially near the end when Marell came back to the room. That whole scene had a very distinct feeling to it that definitely added to the episode to me.

Random note: they totally used the same set for Government Dude's office and Reya's house. When Daniel and Teal'c were coming around the corner I was wondering why they were returning to the scene of the crime, and then I was like, oh, set double. Not complaining, just saying it was noticable.

So, good job M&M, good work Ben, heck, good work all around.

[OriKiller]

As for the overall episode period in no particular order:
* LOVED NO ORI!!!! I am not to impressed with the new villians nor have TPTB really as of yet made me feel to scared of them so I can take or leave them.

I'm right there with you, TF. Yes, that's definitely a plus. Any episode without the Ori is going to be a great episode in my book.

[Dani347]

I agree with so much. What do I snip for brevity?

While I know it is virtually impossible these days to have an *original* idea in sci-fi I liked how this one was done. I liked how it was used to not only give us *back-story* on Cam Mitchell but to ALSO tie in OTHER Backstory from previous episodes on Cam and gave a firmer picture of the man.

what do I mean? Back at the beginning we saw flashbacks of Cam struggling to walk again after his crahs and the determination he had to do so but no real reason behind that or why he felt the need to push himself so hard. NOW we see this young boy walk into a hosipital room and to him the *Hero* of his young life has been maimed and this is a pivital moment in his young life. HOW does his Dad handle that moment? His Dad, his *Hero* smiles and makes his feel it will all be alright and he learns then the strength of a Man as it applies to his life. This is who he wants to be when he grows up.
Throughout S9 we have heard Cam utter lines like *What if I screw this up?* or something of a similar nature and I have wondered WHY?? where does that second -guessing of his own judgement come from. NOW I have a glimpse of it. Even though the character hadn't thought about that bombing incident for a long time it has still *colored* him in some way and it still haunts him that innocent people died because in the end HE is the one that pushed the button and dropped the bomb. So he likes to have ALL the information he can, he likes to work with the best and know that he has a team around him that can fill the areas he thinks he is lacking in.

This episode explained to me why this character not only still wanted to push himself to be the best he can be but why he also felt he needed the people around him that he asked for.

Yes, to all of that. I had thought this could help explain his second guessing, but then I couldn't think of any other time that he had expressed that other than that one comment to Sam in Avalon 1, so it didn't really seem more than a natural feeling for a guy who is suddenly in a position he didn't expect. And, I hadn't thought of the connection to him pushing for Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c specifically, but that makes sense, too.

* LOVED NO ORI!!!! I am not to impressed with the new villians nor have TPTB really as of yet made me feel to scared of them so I can take or leave them.

Honestly, after the last episode, the Ori have made me skittish, so I was glad to get a break from them.

* I liked that Sam was as supportive of Cam as she was...BUT I felt that her character would have wanted to know more about the technology then was written.

I think she would have been more curious, too. I did feel at times, her expression was worried when it should have been curious.

* I had no issue with Cam walking the Dr home as we were lead to believe FROM THE TEAM COMMENTS he had the hots for her. I never really saw it just got it from the dialogue. So if they were ok with it and could rib him about it then I had no issue about it as well.

Well, yeah, if it had only been contained to him flirting at the party, I would have been fine with it. I liked seeing them tease him.

* I liked Daniel and Teal'c demanding the missing pieces of the investigation and pointing out that they wouldn't know if it was pertinent. I liked that they showed this skeptisim to the head guy.

Yes, things like this, even if there wasn't a lot gave me the feel of them working, having something to do, instead of just tagging along with no purpose.

** Ben Browder EXCELLENT performance after the memory of the bombing!! This was a BAD, AWFUL memory and he really conveyed that it was an awful experience to have been through. I felt that this character had some depth and THAT is a BOON for me on SG. Sam had her moment for me in *Singularity*, Teal'c in *Avatar* and well I haven't really seen one for Daniel as of yet. Its that moment where you feel that the character is completely exposed and raw and what you see is it... the end of the emotional rope at that moment. Hopefully Cam will show something that is in the present and TPTB will give Daniel something yet to be done

.

[/QUOTE]


I always knew that BB could bring in the angst, and was just waiting for a chance for him to do it here. And, he didn't disappoint. A lot of the time for me, I find myself attracted to a part that wasn't meant to have as much of an impact. I did think he did a great job reliving the memory of the bombing, but things that really stood out for me was his reaction to hearing that he should be grateful, and just little things, like the way he kept pressing his lips together when he was remembering things, like he was feeling sick and holding back his urge to gag. Nothing big, just a little thing that I noticed and liked.

As for Daniel, Secrets comes to mind, right after he delivered Shifu. He just seemed spent there.

Speaking of saying "no", there is a definite parallel between the memory splicing and rape. The intrusiveness, the violation.

Very true. In fact, when Daniel said that Mitchell had been assaulted, I immediately thought he meant that. Then, I figured he was most likely talking about the fact that he had been knocked out.