Babylon (908)

[Chaosmaid]

Can't remember if discussion of the title "Babylon" was here or in some other thread, but someone said the connection was the similarity between the code of the Babylonian King Hammurabi--such as "an eye for an eye"--and the Sodan code. Here's another take on the title: biblically, Babylon is the place of exile. It's where all the Israelites were forced to go after they were conquered by the Babylonians. The Sodan are in a place of exile, too, even though the exile is self-imposed. They are hidden from the rest of the Jaffa, separated from them by tradition and history. Fifty years after the Babylonian exile, the Israelites were allowed to return to their homeland when the Persian, Cyrus, defeated the Babylonians. It will be interesting to see whether or not the Sodan's exile will also be ended--by choice, by internal rebellion, by defeat at the hands of a more powerful enemy, or by some other means. Whatever happens, it better involve our favorite team...

Thanks! I was wondering what the title had to do with the Sodan.

In regards to the episode itself I'll say that I agree with some and disagree with others. Whatever comments I may have would only be rehashing what has already been posted.

CM

[MediaSavant]

If I may, even if Mitchell is a fighter pilot, one who think that he should be qualified in all forms of weapons training. There may be a breach where the only thing that stands between you and the enemy is a p90.

But TPTB either a- didn't think of BB practicing with a prop or b-- thought he
knew how to fire a weapon, since he was on Farscape or c-- didn't care.

Excuse me, but what to directors do on this show?

One would think that it isn't the actor's responsibility to learn these things, but the director's responsibility to tell them how to give the proper performance.

I'm relatively new around here, but why is all the heat going in BB's direction and not the director who should have told him, "no, do it this way." Isn't that the director's job?

[Fargater]

Dr. Lam's comments to her father were not completely out of line. The operation she did to save the Jaffa's life lasted for nine straight hours. Her comments were against the immediate interigation of her patient. The personal conflict between them has been kept between them. It has not effected her duties as the Chief Medical Officer. She does not seem unfit to be in her current position at the SGC.

Thank you. That`s pretty much what I said. I watched it again and all I saw in that scene was the doctor asserting herself on behalf of her patient. She said something like it (interrogation as soon as he woke up) wasn`t her idea of good post-op care. And I hadn`t paid attention really, but you`re right. The personal conflict as far as I remember has been kept between them. As for her sitting, she`s tired for cryin` out loud. And she was pretty civil until Landry said he wanted to know as soon as Volnek woke up. Then she went into Protective Doctor mode.

[Fargater]

Ever since Mitchell’s first appearance this season, I’ve been waiting for the writers to give us an episode devoted to the new commander of SG-1. A lot of the earlier episodes were devoted to Daniel and his motivations, with Mitchell being little more than the one applying pressure to get the team back together. His reactions have been muted during the rise of the Ori, giving Daniel room to maneuver. This time, though, it’s all about him.

I, for one, enjoyed it. I was getting worried that the writers were turning Mitchell into a John Crichton clone. This episode clarified the situation. While both characters use humor and pop-culture references to alleviate tension, Mitchell is a capable military officer. He’s not some fish out of water trying to survive, forced to lead despite himself. Mitchell is, at the core, the kind of man that O’Neill might have been before his life took that downward spiral after Charlie’s death.

Some elements of the story were a little predictable. Particularly, I was able to identify Jolan as Volnak’s brother (I think that was the name of the injured Warrior of Sodan) even before Jolan mentioned that the nearest relative would fight Mitchell to the death. Actually, I’m still not entirely clear on what the tradition was. OK, if a non-Warrior kills a Warrior, and the non-Warrior is captured, the non-Warrior is taught the ways of the Warriors so that he can die at the hands of a Warrior in a battle to the death…how does that make sense again?

That really doesn’t matter, though, since it’s all an excuse to have Mitchell there to deal with the invasion of a Prior among some of the most respected of legendary Jaffa. The situation is such that he’s the only one in the position to do something about it. For all their efforts with Volnak, the rest of the team makes very little progress. So it gives the writers a chance to show something of Mitchell’s character.

Mitchell recognizes that the Sodan leader, Haikon, has bought into the propaganda of the Prior. The Sodan tend to do whatever Haikon says they should do, and that means bowing down to “gods” that are just too hard to resist, especially when they are close enough to the Ancients that they already worship. Mitchell determines that the one way to get his message across to other Sodan is by gaining their respect. Thus, he trains harder than any non-Warrior ever has, hoping that it will be enough.

The resolution is stolen right out of the “Amok Time” handbook, and a possible revolution is sparked for good measure. I expect the Sodan to make another appearance relatively soon (and yes, I’m still avoiding spoilers, so I’m not going by that). The writers acknowledge it, at least!

One aspect I really liked were the hints about the politics of searching for Mitchell; apparently, the whole issue with the international committee is going to be an ongoing one. In past seasons, the political aspects of the show were sometimes less balanced, taking over too much or not enough of the story. This season, with the return to gate travel as the norm, the politics are still present but more integrated. Along with the positive focus on Mitchell as a distinct character and a vivid Sodan portrayal, that balance is what makes this episode work so well.

AMEN.

[Traveler Enroute1]

I also think some important things were either set up, or touched apon in this story. I think that it's pretty clear that Cam is hiding a devout belief in God himself. He said that "he'd already been there" in response to Haikon's jibe about "when you are facing your own death, maybe you will understand." I think Mitchell had some sort of religious experience when he was in that crashed 302 in Antarctica. That's why he worked so hard to recover. That's why he worked so hard to get into SG-1.
-IMF

<<my snips>>

Great point. Cam has on more than one occasion mentioned his Southern church upbringing and his grandmother's platitudes. The Jaffa leader had to give Cam's words some reflection, ("our faith doesn't require us to see our god" -paraphrase). Cam may turn out to be the fulcrom on which the battle of Ori domination and resistence to them will turn: his " devout belief in God." His faith and the peaceful mission of SGC, vs the visible and violent mission of he Ori. I don't recall anyone on SG1 being partial to religious belief. A contrast that may bring them allies? Hmmm. What ARE the PTB up to?

Just sayin'.

[Traveler Enroute1]

I obviously have too much time on my hands.





Screencap courtesy of ThomasDM. Thank you!

LOL!
He won't have a problem lighting up.

Just sayin'.

[Fargater]

Well I watched it again and paid particular attention to the things people (including myself) were picking on.

Opening scene: They`ve been there for a while and apparently Teal`c keeps "hearing" things. Mitchell yakking, whether he should or not, is just the effects of the continuous false alarms. He is starting to doubt (and says so) the reliability of the intel. When the ambush starts, they all were still standing, not just Mitchell. None of them made any real attempt to hit the dirt or at least get down/behind anything. I`m guessing it`s because they were looking for the enemy to return fire only couldn`t see the invisible warriors. But still they all should have tried to get behind cover more. I bet Jack would have been on the ground jammed up behind a tree and waiting for the bad guys to show themselves.

As for how BB held the gun, well I saw them all holding them that way at different times during the ambush. Sometimes they had it in one hand and braced on their hip when firing. It was quick, but it was there.

Someone compared Mitchell to Sam re. leadership skills and said she got on her radio right away and called for backup or relayed their position or whatever she did, and said Mitchell should have done that. She didn`t do that until they had already broken and run from the Sodan and had a moment to make the call. Mitchell was already busy fighting Volnek when she got on her radio.


And I can`t remember what else I was going to say.

[Busterfan]

I loved this ep. We really needed to learn more about Mitchell and see him in action and this ep gave us this chance. I like how the character is optimistic and determined and refuses to give up. I also like how he had the most sensible reasons of all for not following the Ori -- that you shouldn't need proof for faith and that the Sodan should look into the Ori before they give up 5,000 years of tradition. He didn't try to lecture them or bully them into his way of thinking, he kept quiet in the beginning and did waht they wanted and he gradually tried talking to them. And it worked in that he convinced Jolnar (?) to resist the Ori, even if he didn't convince the leader.

The parts back at SGC were less interesting, imo, but they were quick and thankfully didn't have too much explaining/talking. I think one reason I really liked the scenes with Mitchell, other than just enjoying the character, was that they were really pretty exposition-lite. The less exposition the better, imo. It just slows everything down.

I never saw the Last Samurai, so that reference didn't bother me. And I enjoyed the nod to the ST:TOS ep with Mitchell's "Bones" comment. I like that Mitchell saw the similarity in the situation and mentioned it.

As far as the military nitpicks that so many people are upset about. Eh, whatever. They'll never bother me because, for one reason, I was never in the military and I just don't care about how exact that stuff is. And secondly, I watch SG-1 for a solid story and interesting characters, if some of the military details aren't right, it is soooo far down my list of things that make an ep enjoyable that I really don't notice. I'd much rather the writers spent time on character development and plot twists rather than how high a P-90 should be held and whether it's okay to talk after wandering around on a planet half a day on vague intel is something a military leader would do or not. Mitchell's dialogue in the beginning was amusing while giving us the exposition to explain the situation, so it worked quite well for me.

[Ascended Times.2]

Why was all of Sg-1 wearing blue??????? They have always seemed to wear green, is it just to branch off from the O'neill look? Personally, i quite liked it...

[Kas]

Love all your post Busterfan... thank you.

I'd much rather the writers spent time on character development and plot twists rather than how high a P-90 should be held and whether it's okay to talk after wandering around on a planet half a day on vague intel is something a military leader would do or not.

Hear, hear! And regarding Mitchell talking, As soon as Teal'c said 'be quiet', they all were...with guns at the ready. It wasn't until Teal'c (with his superior hearing abilities), gave the all clear by saying 'it was NOTHING' that they all relaxed and Mitchell with Daniel had a convo.

I've also seen it said that Mitchell was just strolling through the forest with P90 down by his side totally unprofessionally with only one hand on it instead of being alert and at the ready... well, look again. I know they look alike but it was Daniel who was doing that. Some people seem determined to nitpick on Ben/Mitchell.

I wouldn't normally post pics in a discussion forum but this particular complaint stood out for me.

[AGateFan]

Well Daniel is a civilian and even he was holding his weapon correctly when the scene started he moved it to one hand when steping over somthing and then when he got into the conversation with Mitchell. And to me it looked like everyone (except teal'c and Mitchell) got to their Knees behind a log when the shooting started. Teal'c had the big machine gun so he had a reason to remain standing, Mitchell (although he bend his knees) should have been down with Sam and Daniel.

BTW why are jaffa such bad shots. This is a Stargate question in general but in this ep particular. They were invisible and had plenty of time to aim you think they would have hit something, or gotten even close....I know, it would have been a really short ep if they had actually hit something, but still. *imitating Mitchell imitating teal'c* "Sodan are great warriors, but did I mention they can’t hit the side of a barn while standing right next to it" *imitation over*

Don’t get me wrong, Mitchell was great in the rest of the episode. He just looked\sound everything but professional and Military in the first segment of the show. I was hoping for a little more out of the character, maybe a kickaz military guy showing why he should be in charge. Currently Mitchell is less kickaz than Ford, but he has been given more personality early on then Ford was.

And yes IMHO this is more an issue with writing and directing of the character then anything the actor is doing. Sort of a let-down considering in Avalon I and II he was looking like a sharp military guy (like O'Neill) who actually wanted to pay attention to what was going on and could contribute with more then epiphanies of simplicity (like O'neill). I can't figure out why they are writing him this way.

[Hatcheter]

Why was all of Sg-1 wearing blue??????? They have always seemed to wear green, is it just to branch off from the O'neill look? Personally, i quite liked it...

They alternate between blue and green while in the SGC, with no obvious pattern. The real question ought to be "what was with the black while offworld?"

[bmicales]

Well, after viewing Babylon three times, including pausing the the DVD during
the gun battle, I have the following conclusions:

1) Mitchell is clearly in charge of the team, since a) he does order them "Down" when the firing starts and b) he does order them back to the gate.

2) Mitchell is firing the P90 correctly - although maybe not in a mode that most others are accustomed to see. For a direct link, see the site: P90 Promotional Video (This is not a direct link to the video, go to the bottom of the page, second to last line has a direct link). Time points showing various positions:
3:17 - lying down - sighted
4:26 - stiff arm
5:18 (?) this looks more posed to show a feature - hip
6:24 - just below chest height (the position Mitchell appeared to be using)
also view Season 6 Allegiance (at the end) - O'Neill is firing his P90 from just below chest height.

3) When ordered down, all the rest of the team (at least Carter and Daniel) does is to kneel (on one knee) ON THE PATH. Mitchell does "sort of" kneel down but his knee does not make ground contact.

I do admit that Mitchell's healing does seem a bit fast, but I am wondering if that has anything to do with the teas and herbs that the Sodan were giving him to heal his wound - especially those they were placing directly on the wound.

I all, I enjoyed this episode and hopefully will seem more Mitchell-based epsiodes to "fill out" his character even more. I do believe Mitchell is learning that he does need to be careful about what one does say, but I don't think any of the other members are taking anything that Mitchell might say about them to heart. As far as Mitchell not really trusting the intel from the Jaffa - well O'Neill did not really trust the Tokra that much. O'Neill did trust some of the Tokra, but not as a whole.

Finally to address the issue of Mitchell's ability to command SG-1. First off (and to me most important) Mitchell was given command by the General in charge of the SGC. As long as support from the commander of the SGC remains, then Mitchell has every right to be the commander. Should the General decide that Mitchell is not "cutting it" as commander and Carter would be better - fine. I doubt that would happen, but you never know. Personally, I don't think in the long term Mitchell would have a big problem with this.

The other thing to consider is that Carter basically quit the SG1 and took another assignment. IF she had remained in charge of SG1, then I would agree that Mitchell should not be in command, but the fact is it did not happen.

As far as what he brings to the team (besides his rank, experience in both combat and leadership) is that his presence allows the others to do what they do best without the concerns of leadership. Carter can be the scientist that she is best at, Daniel can be the liguist/archaeologist and Teal'c - well Teal'c can be Teal'c . Should Mitchell "tap" this resource and learn - YES. The one thing that "Babylon" did show was that Mitchell is capable of learning and using new methods. Hopefully the TPTB take advantage of this fact.

As far as the rest of the episode, what can I say different other that what already has been said. I do think that the Sodan (IMO) would make a great allie against the Ori - once you past all the "isolationist" ideas.

OK, these are my opinions - thanks for reading

Bruce

[lily]

I posted a general comment (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=120) last Saturday after watching this epi once. Now that I watched it twice, I wanted to add something more especific.



- I loved the team interaction at the beginning. And I especially loved Cameron's imitation of Teal'c when he said "The warriors of the Sodan exist, colonel Mitchell. I am certain of it". I can picture Teal'c saying that line. LOL

- Sam mentions an SG-22 when she requests back up... I don't remember a 20-something SG team being mentioned before. I wonder how many SG teams are currently active in canon...

- I love the village set

- shirtless Cameron waking up on that bed was hot <cough, shallow moment here, cough>

- the Sodan having Ancient technology is very interesting, and it seems like something that will be explored in future episodes. At least I hope so.

- the scene at the observation room. Daniel saying (about Lexa Doig, aka Dr Lam): "Well, she's very good". Hehehe.

- I liked the Cameron/Jolan scenes a lot.

- Nice to see some Landry/Lam interaction. Liked the scene at the infirmary a lot

- I liked the Cameron/Lord Haikon interaction.

- The fight scenes were great, and more so knowing that Ben did the stunts himself. Kudos to him. Great job!

- the kids were cute

- Another great moment was when Mitchell had to run and he kept bumping on invisible barriers and getting knocked out. Poor guy. Talking about whumping! BTW, nicely done, it really looked as if he was bumping into those invisible things.

- Cameron mentions six weeks Air Force training at Fort Benning. It would be nice if some fanfic writers out there picked this up and wrote a fic about that <hint, hint>

- Nice to see Sam mentioning Dr. Lee. I like Dr Lee a lot.

- Nice to see Sam and Daniel talking about spending months searching for their people in the past and not leaving a man behind before.


I haven't read all the posts here (too many to catch up!), but I read some stuff here and there.

What I'm going to add here is of course my humble opinion and point of view, and no offense is intended.

There're very very few sci fi shows and movies I stand watching, and only two sci fi shows I actually love (both SG-1 and Atlantis, obviously). Never watched more than 5 or 10 minutes of Star Trek, neither the original series nor the spin-offs. I'm not a Sci Fi fan at all. So I never get the Star Trek references The only ones I got in the whole 9 years were the one about Jack wanting to name the Prometheus "Enterprise", and Jacob in "Tangent" telling Daniel "Beam them up? What I am? Scotty?" Even I got those! LOL

I haven't seen "The last Samurai" either, but a friend of mine who saw that movie and already watched Babylon twice, told me that she didn't think they were similar... As I said, I haven't seen the movie, so I can't comment on similarities.

What I *can* say is that even if that's true, so what? TPTB have always said in previous seasons' audio commentaries and some interviews that they made this or that as a tribute to this or that. For example, that scene with Jack and Sam flying in a remake of a Star Wars scene in the 1st movie (the only one I saw and liked, I think now it's called Episode IV or whatever). They never tried to concealed it. It's their tribute, their way of paying homage to all those shows and movies they like. If this is another case of homage, kudos to them. I don't mind. I think they do a fantastic job.

I've read complaints about the lack of originality in stargate scripts. Of course, everybody's welcome to has his/her opinion, and I respect them, but I respectfully disagree on this matter.
Sometimes, just because a plot has something in common with other stories, it doesn't mean it's a rippoff, or that it lacks of originality on its own. Lots of stories are different from each other, even if they have a common background. So, just because someone did a movie based on pilots in WWII (just to put an example), does that mean that any other movie based on pilots in WWII will be a copy/rippoff and will lack of originality? I don't think so. They could have certain things in common because of the subject in common, but that wouldn't necessarily mean they lack of originality. The same can be said of other genres and plots in general, including comedy, suspense, action, adventure, sci fi, etc. It happens in all genres. But IMHO just because some aspects of a plot are similar and look familiar, it doesn't mean that they're the same. Even if they have some stuff in common, there'll always be some aspects that make them different.

I've read some complaints about TPTB in Stargate repeating themselves with a remake of old stargate scripts, scripts they already used in past seasons (for example, the trial thing in "Cor'ai" versus the one in "The powers that be". I disagree. Even if we do have the trial concept in common, I still think "The powers that be" is original, and it's not a copy of Co'rai or any other episode. Just because there's a trial in both it doesn't make it less original. It has its own twists. Hey, "Law & Order" has trials too and it has nothing to do neither with "Cor'ai" nor with "The powers that be".

Once again, this is just my point of view. Everybody's welcome to disagree in a nice way

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Well this was a lacklustre episode, for me.

The Sodan lived in a beautiful environment, I will say that much, but I didn't get any sense of regret at the loss of their culture. Too bad, too, because it looks like it was a cool culture. I would have liked to have seen the Priors actually interfere in some aspect of the Sodan culture, to give that Jaffa guy a tangible reason to believe Mitchel.

I also couldn't connect with Cameron 'I've been close to death before' Mitchel. That ranks right up there with Vala 'You know nothing about me' Mal Duran.

Lam and Landry are starting to get on my nerves. I felt that Sam was present in body but absent in spirit, though I appreciated that Daniel actually did get to do some acting, and Teal'c as well.

All in all, a forgetable episode, for this fan.