Ex Deus Machina (907)

[Schrodinger82]

Whatever, man. If you want to be a jerk about it. Like I said, I don't want to get into it. It must hurt, reaching like that, but whatever. Believe what you want to believe. I've said what I think, and you're just not worth more time. I'm gonna go talk to a slightly more stimulating conversationalist.

-IMF
"Hello, wall."

Whether or not I'm a jerk is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that have no idea what you're talking, that you're in way over your head on this discussion, or that your own sources contradict you. Everything you've said may sound all well and good, up until you try applying it to actual stories. Then it just sort of falls apart, becoming completely worthless in the process.

Great job trying to claim the high ground on this, though. Really big of you, and not transparent in the least.

[vikingjedi]

So let me get this straight, we have a highly advanced alien civilization called the Ori trying to take over the galaxy and there is no mention of them at all in this episode. Instead the show focuses on the snake heads who are already defeated and considered weak now. Made no sense at all.

Vala was highly missed too. It was weird, it seemed like Carter shouldn't have been there. I know she is just returning but she came across as the leader without even trying. Thats not a good thing when they're trying to make Daniel the lead character. Mitchell looked lost and Teal'c is the only one that seemed comfortable. The chemistry they built earlier this season has been changed again (for the worse) and thats a shame because I was really digging the show up until this point.

[Standback]

Much as I enjoyed Beachhead last week, this week's ep was a whole different level of SG1 goodness. The past six episodes felt like SG1: The Sequel. Not by any means poorly done or failing to interest, but: new general, new commander, all our old enemies are dead and defeated and now we've got a brand new one that's utterly unrelated to anything that's gone before.

"Ex Deus Machina," though... a joy to behold. We've got Goa'uld, we've got NID, we've got Jaffa. With both Jaffa and Goa'uld, we've got the same old faces, brand new twist - promising new and exciting episodes in the future. This, to me, is one of the best things about a good SF series - the characters and events build up on each other, interact with each other, and get to new places in a believable, interesting and exciting way - thus setting the scene for more great characters, more great events.

The new plotline for Ba'al is wonderful. Goa'uld, among us, running our corperations... It's a whole new Goa'uld. And seeing Ba'al in a business suit is indeed a heck of a kick. I'm very curious as to what he'll be doing next...

I confess advance anticipation of the Ba'al clones. I suspected something of the sort the moment Carter mentioned that he was supposed to be both on Earth and somewhere out in space... and I was pretty sure as soon as we saw him both at the hotel and live on TV. But it was very well done, and while clones are something of a cliche, they're one I love, and that can be used in many different and interesting ways. Does Ba'al have any specific goal with all these clones? How many does he have? Time will, one may hope, tell.

The Jaffa involvement was also very interesting - we've seen tension growing and growing, and now the Jaffa are actively interfering in Earth affairs. Teal'c's attempts at keeping the Council straight are interesting, but not very successful - I hope he'll be able to do something about the Jaffa other than just talk to them (much as I love to hear Teal'c actually get lines!).

...and yeah, assuming nobody notices that a skyscraper was teleported away rather than blown up is absurd. That was rather annoying.

Great episode - I hope for many more to follow.

[LoveYouBaby]

What can I say about this episode, it's FREAKY!

LOL

I specially didn't read much into the spoilers for this episode, all I knew was that it's an Earth-based episode and Baal is on the loose.

I quite enjoyed this episode, even though I hate earth-based episodes. At the first scene when the Jaffa was running through the woods, I thought I was watching Atlantis by mistake, cos you know the whole running in the forest/wood.

This episode was excellently executed IMO, Carter is back for good, got mentions of Cassandra and the Tok'ra. Agent Barrett is back too, and I couldn't help but smile with him when Carter said, "Pete and I broke up". I was like, GET IN!

My hatred for Garak continues to grow, he's such a hypocrite. I so can't wait for him to die! So not use to Cliff Simon's accent, lol

Anyway, best scenes was when the Prometheus beams Carter from the stake-out truck to the building then the beaming of the entire building into space.

The end scene was just so freaky!

Nice episode.

[Albion]

Well, this one reminded me a lot of Sleepwalkers. Not one of the most exciting episodes I've ever seen...and this one won't be high up on my rewatch list either, I suspect. (Although I do have to qualify that by saying that all of my opinions on the season so far are subject to change when I finally get to see them properly on SKY. I often find that I miss things in these little dls that I see later that do change my mind on some of them. So it's very possible I'll find this one terribly exciting in a couple of months. )

What I liked about this one:

Mitchell insisting SG1 wear the patches.

Sam's 'Not exactly'. Very nice touch. Vague enough to suit everyone, doesn't tie anything down, yet is enough to get the shippers' minds burning overtime with the possibilities. ). Must admit I had begun to nod off in my seat until that point, at which time my shipper radar pricked up and went 'hel-lo'.

Getting the reasons why Sam was at Area 51. Again very nice touch mentioning Cassie and letting us know that she did have some reaction to Janet's death.

Sam beaming off the truck - cute moment.

As for the rest of it:

Was very surprised that Mitchell was in the background so much. I'm not in the camp of complaining about this because I do believe that it was wiser of TPTB to bring him in slowly rather than thrust him into the forefront right away. Still, with Vala gone and Sam back, I'd thought that this episode would be the one to mark him out as being in charge. So I was just a little surprised that didn't happen.

In fact, the whole who's in charge thing is confusing me. Last night it really detracted from watching the episode, because I kept getting distracted trying to figure out who was in charge of SG1. It wasn't that much of an issue this week because the team was split up, but it still bothered me that I couldn't figure out who it was.

As an aside on that, I feel that they're going to have a problem if they want Mitchell as team leader. Mitchell was introduced in Avalon as this almost fanatical fan of SG1. It was clear that he hero-worshipped them, probably had posters of them up on his locker <g>, had them on a pedestal a hundred feet high... This is a pretty subordinate position for the character to be in. And, yes, his attitude has changed somewhat since he got involved with them, but introducing him in that subordinate position to start with kind of means that's how I see him still, now. So it's going to take a lot for me to accept him in a superior position now. Thanks to how he was introduced to us, I just can't see him that way. And there was nothing in this episode either, I have to say, that screamed to me that Mitchell was a natural leader of men (and women) like Jack was. In the briefing room scenes, Carter seemed much more dominant than Mitchell did.

Anyway, back to the episode.

It was lovely to see Agent Barrett back, but he was woefully underused. Just seemed to be there to ask Sam about her personal life so we could get the twin facts of Cassie and 'not exactly'.

Surprisingly, the Jaffa scenes didn't bore me to tears. But I can't say they especially enthralled me either. Although I have to say that I was quite intrigued by that Jaffa priestess on the council. Much more interested in her as a character than Garek, I have to confess.

Ba'al seemed...diminished somehow in that suit and in a contemporary Earth setting. Didn't give me the shivers down the spine he used to, I'm afraid.

As for the clones...well, I'm afraid that was just a touch too BSG for this viewer. Just reminded me of the end of the mini series. OTOH, I was relieved to discover that my favourite Goa'uld hadn't bitten the bullet just yet. <g>

So...kind of a non-event for me, this one. It may grow on me on subsequent viewings and it had its moments. But it was too much talk and not enough character relationship for this fan. And I did find myself irked by the lacklustre, downbeat way that Sam was brought back into the fold. I wasn't looking for fireworks or 'Welcome back, Sam' banners. But a little more drama would have been welcome. Especially over the issue of Mitchell asking her back. I would have liked to have seen some quandary in that for Sam, some weighing up of the pros and cons perhaps. Not a huge amount of time spent on it, but just one scene might have been nice. As it is, I feel a little cheated on that side of things.

Ah well...that's what fanfic is for, right?

...and yeah, assuming nobody notices that a skyscraper was teleported away rather than blown up is absurd.

You know this really irked me watching the episode last night. Got really bugged by that 'dumb attempt' to explain it away too with the reporter at the end. Or, at least, that's how I saw it then. And then, just as I was about to add this into my post and say it sucked, I suddenly remembered something.

Sam said at one point that they had evacuated a five block area around the building. Now that makes a difference for me. If that was the case, it suddenly seems much more plausible to me that there was no one around to happen to be passing on the street or looking out of a window from the other buildings when the building vanished. So what does that leave? Satellite pictures? Well, most of the countries with satellites in space are in on the Stargate programme - aren't they? They could easily be persuaded to keep quiet on what their technology registered.

Does it take care of every single possibility that someone could have seen something they shouldn't? No, of course not. But it's enough to have taken care of the objections I had last night when I watched the episode. The odd person there I can accept. We already know that the SGC can silence them. I just couldn't accept that there were dozens of people in the buildings surrounding it and in the general area and all of them saw zip. But if they'd all been evacuated out of the area and it was practically a ghost town when the building was beamed up - well that's a whole different story and enough for me to buy the premise. Just. <g>

Thats not a good thing when they're trying to make Daniel the lead character.

They are? Where does this come from? I've seen no indication that this is the case on screen and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that this would be the aim of TPTB. Mitchell, yes. But Daniel? Sorry, not seeing it. As I've said earlier though, I'd definitely agree that Sam looked in charge without seeming to try. As an aspect of her character I really enjoyed seeing that. But, again, in regard to them wanting Mitchell as leader, it was a little confusing vibe in those scenes.

Albion

[Maxum]

They are? Where does this come from? I've seen no indication that this is the case on screen and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that this would be the aim of TPTB. Mitchell, yes. But Daniel? Sorry, not seeing it.
Albion

Sorry, I don't see Mitchell as the "lead character" either. I think Daniel would have that position long before Mitchell with all of Daniel's experiences so far. That said, however, there are no leads on SG-1; it's a team effort.

[rosewood]

Wow, so much plot, so poorly executed.

This story could have been so much better if they came to it by having the characters do things that show the story unfold versus telling it around a table, walking down halls or looking at consoles. An episode that could have been good instead highlighted all the weaknesses in this show.

First off, SG1 should have gone hunting for the Jaffa on earth and figured out that Ba'al was on earth themselves. Who goes to their tenuous ally the Jaffa and says "hey, we found your spy"? First you figure out what the spy is doing there. Then later you have a hold card to play.

I love the Ba’al character. The best part of Ba’al is how he rankles the members of SG-1 when he interacts with them. In this episode they never had a real-time pissing contest with the guy though. Ba'al was incredibly flat and non-threatening just talking on a video screen. And no humour. Though nice suit Ba'al.

The Ba’al murder was another missed opportunity. If he were the real Ba’al, getting really executed, there would have been alot more pomp and circumstance and dramatic music. And they should have just left Ba’al presumably dead. That leaves you wide open to have another earth episode where Walter runs into Landry’s office and says “hey, Ba’al’s on Larry King so I guess he’s not dead” surprise moment. A wasted opportunity for some suspense and drama with Ba'al and a more interesting story about what Ba’al is up to could be developed over more time.

Compound the lame plotting with the dull directing – how many reaction shots to people standing around talking do we need? Instead of team working together, we have people scattered all over the place. Teal’c and Mitchell went back and forth to Dakara so many times, I hope they got frequent flyer miles.

Teal’c! Finally the man has something to do, but it's underwhelming. His fight with Gerak could have easily been the focus of the entire episode. Instead of letting Teal’c's fight with Gerak play out with more a few more rounds of duplicity and wrangling, and let the story end with Teal’c walking away to ponder his defeat, they went for the lame Ba’al clone trick.

I found this a fairly suspense-less episode, despite all the information. It was nice to see Ba’al; love hearing Cliff Simon’s real South African voice. The actors did as much as they could with the few character moments they had – the badge scene, Carter telling whos-it her backstory, Teal’c’s return in defeat.

A few disciplined choices about the plot and story could have made this a good episode. I get the feeling TPTB are a bunch of guys going in different directions. They have no plan for the character or plot arcs for this season. Maybe Robert Cooper has some ideas; he’s written the good episodes so far. The Vala episodes felt like each guy got a chance to write a Vala episode, with no regard for continuity of the characters or the larger season story. Introduce the Ori, next week go on a wild goose chase treasure hunt. Back to the Ori, then an earth-based Ba’al episode… no momentum.

For me, the whole of this episode was way less than the sum of its parts.

[IMForeman]

Whether or not I'm a jerk is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that have no idea what you're talking, that you're in way over your head on this discussion, or that your own sources contradict you. Everything you've said may sound all well and good, up until you try applying it to actual stories. Then it just sort of falls apart, becoming completely worthless in the process.

Great job trying to claim the high ground on this, though. Really big of you, and not transparent in the least.

I don't care if you feel I'm being transparent. My own sources didn't contradict me, they completely validated me. You were wrong, and I feel I totally proved it. You did make some points, and I acknowleged them when you did, but you just kept banging on with the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that shows me that you know you were wrong. Nothing proves a weak position more than becoming insulting in a debate, and nothing undermines that position more.

I'll address your post this once more, then you're frankly going on the ignore list.

"In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation?"

Now, was being stranded with no way to get back to earth and only a few hours worth of air a difficult situation? Yes or no?

My point, which I've been trying to make, and you have been completely ignoring is that the being stuck on an asteroid at the end of the episode was irrelevant. The main plot of the episode was stopping that asteroid. SG1 stopped the Asteroid completely on their own, without aid from the Tok'ra. Jalen's arrival at the end was just a postscript to the plot. The Tok'ra were not used in the main plot at all beyond a casual reference to a request for their assistance, and the problem with communication was not a problem for SG-1 to resolve and it's being resolved for them is not a Deus ex for 2 important reasons: 1, it's not plot relevant in any other way than to say "we have to do this the hard way" and 2, the mere act of a problem resolving itself is not always a deus ex machina anyway, as my links showed that a DeM needs to be a resolution that makes no internal logical sense to the story.

Quote:
The Tok'ra are well known for being mercurial and unreliable.

Which I guess would make them what wikipedia would call a "walking dei ex machinis"

Which just shows that you didn't understand that one either. A "walking dues ex machina" would be someone who always has the ability to resolve the plot when he/she enters the story, no matter how bleak. The Asgard often wind up being used like this. Hopeless situation, call the Asgard. I think Anubis was a way of sort of taking that away from them a bit, but it should be noted that the Asgard while seemingly DeM, actually were often used in ways that didn't classify as DeM's. "Thor's Chariot" is a perfect example, and on the surface seems to be a DeM. The Asgard decend from the sky at the bleakest moment and extricate them from an intractible situation... that's almost the textbook Deus ex Machina... except for the fact that Daniel and Sam had been working all episode to bring this about... it fits in the internal consistancy of the episode, and was established in a slow build up. The Asgard didn't just show up out of nowhere, they were called. The entire b-plot of the episode was there to establish them, and contact them. So, their arrival at the end was a result of the plot. The Asgard resolved the episode's plot, but they were not a surprise arrival.

The Tok'ra though, more often then not will not help them out of a situation unless it suits them, and just as often wind up getting them into trouble. They are not used as a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to resolve any situation. IMO, the Tok'ra are often just this side of useless most of the time.

Now, you're going on the ignore list. You could have chosen to debate, you chose to get arrogant and frankly insulting. I can't imagine you'll say anything I'll lament missing.

-IMF

[golfbooy]

Originally Posted by vikingjedi:
I know she is just returning but she came across as the leader without even trying.

Orginally Posted by Albion:
In the briefing room scenes, Carter seemed much more dominant than Mitchell did.

I have to say that I agree with this. In Ex Deus Machina Carter seemed to very much be the leader to me. Maybe it's because Mitchell seemed so subordinate to Teal'c, but I'm not picking up on any "I"m the leader of SG-1" vibes from Mitchell. So far, seven episodes into season nine, I've seen no indication that Mitchell is in any way qualified to lead any SG team, let alone SG-1. He seems to be extremely qualified to be part of the team; he's certainly more qualified than Jonas ever was. And Ben Browder is doing a great job of conveying the newness of the whole SGC experience through Mitchell. He's very eager and very enthusiastic, but also very green. And, as was said above, he's clearly not the natural leader with a dominating presence that Jack O'neill was.

I understand that neither Daniel nor Teal'c is ever going to be considered "the leader", despite their ridiculously impressive resumes. But, once Carter returns, I can't see any real way to explain why the military officer with the most gate travel experience, the foremost practical expert on the Stargate itself, and the former leader of SG-1 who has been gone for, oh, a couple of months, wouldn't have command. It just doesn't make sense. Add to that the fact that Carter, at least to me, seems to be commanding during those scenes when someone has to be in charge, and I can't see Mitchell having much of a claim to command. If the writers are intent on Mitchell having command, then I'm going to need a scene where either Carter explains why she's not taking it, or a scene where Landry explains why she's not getting it.

[Traveler Enroute1]

In fact, the whole who's in charge thing is confusing me. Last night it really detracted from watching the episode, because I kept getting distracted trying to figure out who was in charge of SG1. It wasn't that much of an issue this week because the team was split up, but it still bothered me that I couldn't figure out who it was.
Albion

The issue of whose in command has, IMO, been left deliberately vague. To me it seems that Landry is directing the team, sending Sam and Daniel one place, Mitchell and Tea'lc another (as Hammond used to do). So far, only Beachhead had SG-1 proper in action. Maybe it's still too soon for TPTB to make it official one way or the other. My own take is that Mitchell will assume command, simply because this is the NEW SG-1; the original team had disbanded through voluntary reassignment, and there wasn't anyone left to be on it.

The clincher has to be a scene where Sam confirms and accepts Mitchell's command. Then again, we could be immensely shocked and Sam will take over...Naaah.

Just sayin'.

[AGateFan]

The issue of whose in command has, IMO, been left deliberately vague. To me it seems that Landry is directing the team, sending Sam and Daniel one place, Mitchell and Tea'lc another (as Hammond used to do). So far, only Beachhead had SG-1 proper in action. Maybe it's still too soon for TPTB to make it official one way or the other. My own take is that Mitchell will assume command, simply because this is the NEW SG-1; the original team had disbanded through voluntary reassignment, and there wasn't anyone left to be on it.

The clincher has to be a scene where Sam confirms and accepts Mitchell's command. Then again, we could be immensely shocked and Sam will take over...Naaah.

Just sayin'.

That would be the greatest best kept secret of Stargate history.

I think it’s pretty clear that Mitchell is going to be "in command". Although I think Carter has been more commanding so far (2 eps) and is far more qualified for the job (8 years). I agree this begs for a scene between Mitchell and Carter where she says something like "you want the paper work, the meetings and the 24X7 on call paging... go for it." But I suspect in best TPTB form they will simply ignore the entire subject and Mitchell will just be "in command" in the next ep no further explanation.

However, I also suspect that there is not going to be a lot of "orders" being thrown around. Seems to me that it’s going to be more of a consensus thing. Not sure how that’s going to work in some situations but that’s what it is looking like. Besides Daniel and Teal'c are both civilians whom Mitchell begged to be on the team, so if they don’t follow one of his orders what is he going to do? Put them on report? Have them thrown off the team? It would be mildly interesting to have an ep deal with such a thing (ala Rodney Mckay), but not if it got oppressively contentious for too many eps.

So from the show and USAF perspective he will be "in command" but when it comes down to whats actually going on On Screen I suspect you will get more of a feeling that whoever has the most experience on whatever subject the ep is dealing with will be in charge.

[GatetheWay]

That was sort of the point, this is completely new territory for them. Do you think that the Earth based teams look any more covert when they go investigating off world?

In season one's 'Bloodlines' Chulak was mostly knew territory to SG-1 but they had the common sense to go back there DISGUISED as Jaffa. The Jaffa have known the Tauri for eight years and I think they would of at least tried to fit in like any good covert op. For cryin' out loud! Even the Goauld knew enough not wear their usual goddy clothing.

Edit: Oh, and may I remind you of a little episode called 'Rules of Engagement'? I rest my case.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Oh, my....



Excellent episode, this week. We have a team. Very nice. I have to admit to getting a tear in me eye and giving a thumbs up when Teal'c, the last hold out, accepted his SG-1 patch.

The bomb isn't in the building, the bomb is the building. OI! Why weren't there like fifty-one gazillion tv cameras trained on the building when it went up? I guess Homelworld security must be getting very good at "securing the perimeter...." Ah, gas; the versatile scapegoat. So is the entire gas company in on the Stargate secret, or does the military own that utility?

Nice nod to Cassie's existence. Guess she's not such a "tough kid" afterall(Heroes 2). And poor Barrett; did he ever look happy when Sam said she and Pete were history. That was a very nice bone the shippers got - not much meat, but, pretty juicy, I'd say.

The Jaffa storyline has never looked so good - and this from someone who's always enjoyed the Jaffa stories. Garek is no dummy. It would be intertesting to compare Garek to Bra'tac and see how different and how similar their survival tactics were during their careers under their Goa'uld masters.

That last scene was a jaw dropper. Not totally unexpected since we got a couple of hints during the episode, but just seeing that Multiplicity scene was kinda freeekay!

Great ep. Boy, Earth's got fires raging on every front, now! Fun!

[starfox]

This thought flitted through my head briefly as I was watching this ep, but it didn't really hit me until this morning.

Is anyone reading this young enough to remember reading the Animorphs book series? Because the Trust/NID/Baal storyline began to remind me of the quiet Yeerk infiltration, especially the Baal part because that is so not Goa'uld style. Although the Baal-as-businessman scenario was way cooler than anything Applegate could have done.

Just a random thought.

[jckfan55]

My 2 cents. An ok episode, but then Earth/NID episodes tend to be my least favorite. I like that the team seems to be ready to go now & look forward to seeing the *team* offworld together. Loved the look Sam gave Mitchell when accepting the SG1 patch, though I wished for just a tad more explanation of why she came back. I assume it was partly as Barrett said, she wouldn't be happy in a desk job for long. Glad to finally get some reference to Cassandra.