Origin (903)

[akimbo]

<<Instead we get a scene where Daniel is bearing his soul to Jack, telling him that for the first time in eight years he is truly frightened of what may lie ahead and how does Jack respond??


"I'm hungry." >>

I have to agree. Daniel's expression of fear was quite chilling. Considering the magnitude of Daniel's concern, Jack's quip felt entirely wrong. Daniel wasn't afraid for himself; he never is. Having just experienced a world that believes in the Ori, one where the Ori perform miracles to convince the populace of their power and then burn at the stake those who rebel, Daniel fears that Earth will fall under the Ori's rule. And Jack says he's hungry.

Well, okay. Season 9 is here. Jack is gone. Ben Browder is total eye candy. I'm sold. Bring it on!

Sparky

I thought the "I'm hungry" line totally didn't work in the scene as well, but just to defend the writers a bit: there was a time in seasons past when RDA could have pulled off something similar to Jack's "I'm hungry" line with a performance that reacted to Daniel's fears first through recognition and compassion and then pull Daniel out of it with a comforting "I'm hungry" with the subtext of "it's going to be all right".

It would have taken a great performance to do it with both actors in the scene contributing. Both RDA and MS are certainly capable of such a moment (especially with the chemistry that they have exhibited in the past), but that quite obviously did not happen - they didn't appear to be in the same room.

Maybe RCC was hoping for a little magic, I certainly was. Perhaps that's why I'm so disappointed in the outcome.

[Skydiver]

this one didn't do too much for me. it was a good info dump to set up the ori. and they will be annoyingly and frustratingly hard to handle. and the sfx were really good with the pah wraiths, oh wait, ori

vala wasn't too annoying (although the promos for next week suggests that that will change)

gerak will be interesting, as will dr lam. landry is ok, but i wish beau would lose the gruff hoarseness in his voice. or maybe it's always that way. his whispering gets on my nerves

teal'c was...there. and while daniel did a good job arguing with the ori, the whole storyline leaves me a bit uncomfortable. we live ina world where folks hate me and want to kill me because i'm not of htier religion. I watch entertainment to get away from that and elements of the Ori just strike a bit too close to home.

it could go off as decent social commentary...or it could bite them in the tush. depends on how much sermonizing they do.

I'm sure the ori are here to stay, but i gotta admit i miss the good old fashioned greedy goauld.

[macktheknife]

Wow, I was wondering how they would make the Ori "evil", but in pretty much half an episode, they made every other SG universe evil race\villans look tame.

I guess it's more because they essentially remove the free will that is a underpoint of democracy that people on earth have, and that the goauld and humans have fought to get for the galaxy (or the majority).

Also, great credit to the writers for making the Ori unbelivable "evil" to the viewer (or at least me), without simply making them slaughter a bunch of people\asgard etc. Great "thinking writing", that really makes them a very powerfull and very deadly enemy.

I reckon that other goauld with the conan wolf cloak is going to end up as an "Ori" sympathiser, and perhaps we see a Goauld Civil war caused by the Ori.

Only thing wrong with that episode was RDA, with a pointless line, Daniel says "I'm scared" and RDA\Jack says "I'm hungry". I mean really.

I don't think the Ori "themselves" will end up, except towards the very end of the Ori story arc, maybe 2 or 3 seasons from now (i'm hopefull, so sue me ), and it will be the followers attacking us.

[TheCorpulent1]

teal'c was...there. and while daniel did a good job arguing with the ori, the whole storyline leaves me a bit uncomfortable. we live ina world where folks hate me and want to kill me because i'm not of htier religion. I watch entertainment to get away from that and elements of the Ori just strike a bit too close to home.

it could go off as decent social commentary...or it could bite them in the tush. depends on how much sermonizing they do.

While I agree to a certain extent, I wasn't discomfited at all by the Ori's more ideological evil. As you pointed out, it's a very significant presence in reality, so I think the Ori are a pretty good venue to comment about that in SG-1. Like any good concept in a fictional forum whose primary goal is to entertain, the Ori were suitably over-the-top with their religious fanaticism. They took the germ of reality and blew it up to astronomical proportions. I have to admit, the idea of a Crusade against the MW intrigues me, too.

But, on the other hand, you're definitely correct in saying it could go either way in the long run. Execution will be the greatest factor in determining whether the Ori will be relevant or just overly preachy.

[warmbeachbrat]

Some thoughts the morning after the night before:

Hallowed be the Ori, Hallowed be the Ori.....okay I got it. In fact it will be ringing in my ears for days.

Hee-Hee! I was thinking the same thing!

So perhaps we could debate "if not Christian then some other religion(s)" but I'd rather think this episode was not so much about theology but the power of belief. Which is one of the reason I enjoyed it.

In comparing Stargate to Star Trek (well, maybe with the exception of DS9), I notice that Star Trek tends to bring religion into the mix in order to debunk it or knock it down, or belittle it. Stargate tends to bring religion in to the mix to EXPLORE it, to examine it, to test it--do you know what I mean? I think Stargate is more interested in exploring FAITH; not any particular faith, but the fact that there is faith, and what do people believe, and why do they believe it, and if it is false, expose it and give people a chance to find something real, if there is anything real. Because like it or not, this old earth is filled with people who have faith (deep faith, shallow faith, different faith, even indifferent faith). Ignoring it won't make it go away, so trying to explore and understand it is a worthwhile venture (even for a tv show, and even in the most tangential ways).

I must say when I keep hearing Tea'lc talk about false gods, it makes me wonder what he believes now. I don't suppose Stargate will go there, but it DOES make me wonder.

I thought the "I'm hungry" line totally didn't work in the scene as well, but just to defend the writers a bit: there was a time in seasons past when RDA could have pulled off something similar to Jack's "I'm hungry" line with a performance that reacted to Daniel's fears first through recognition and compassion and then pull Daniel out of it with a comforting "I'm hungry" with the subtext of "it's going to be all right".

It would have taken a great performance to do it with both actor's in the scene contributing. Both RDA and MS are certainly capable of such a moment (especially with the chemistry that they have exhibited in the past), but that quite obviously did not happen - they didn't appear to be in the same room.

Maybe RCC was hoping for a little magic, I certainly was. Perhaps that's why I'm so disappointed in the outcome.

Oh man, I was JUST going to post something along these lines. I really think that's where they were going with it and it just didn't come off right--too bad, it could have been magic, as you say.


In thinking about the Priors--the one Daniel encountered was seriously creepy. It might have had something to do with the way he moved (oh so slowly), or how he looked, but I think he was way more menacing than the prior that showed up on earth. Hmmm--maybe tptb are trying to show that they are not all the same--who knows? And what do you suppose is up with the possessed guy? Do the Ori do that very often? Do they have a name for possessed critters? I feel sorry for him.

Oh, some have commented on Harrid and Sallis being burned because of Daniel and Vala when they are innocent. But don't forget, they were part of the group that was rebelling against the Ori--they may have been exposed because of Daniel and Vala, but they weren't innocent of the charges (as unfair as those charges may be), and something tells me they would have been caught sooner or later. I do think, however, that their characters should have been focused on a wee bit more.

And finally, does anyone else think that, as a communications device, this ancient doo-hickey leaves a lot to be desired. Was it really supposed to work that way? Doesn't seem to be very effective and it seems to leave the users wide open to danger. Ah well, questions for another episode to answer.

[Katkin]

I’ll miss the Jack character, but now I am sorry RDA did guest. Just let Jack retire and fish damn it and stop ruining a wonderful character.

And even though I am an S/J Shipper, I’m not so sure I want to see Sam with this version of Jack. He's nearly ready for a nursing home the way he was written and the way RDA played him!

[/rant]Don't apologize. We're all here to discuss the good and the bad......

Agree totally, SS – you hit the nail on the head as always. It was obvious MS and RDA weren’t even acting off each other and to be frank, RDA looked bored and exhausted. Why did they even bother? I felt utterly depressed after watching this, and I didn’t want my last impression of O’Neill to be like that. Guess I will have to hold fast to the last time RDA seemed to actually bother trying with the character and just watch Paradise Lost on a constant loop…

And just to rant on a bit more, I thought this episode was as sucky as a sucky thing – so sucky that it sucked, in fact. Surely the producers should know by now that medieval village settings just end up looking like a Men Without Hats video?

[shockwave]

origin is great, already watched it 3 times today
didn't miss sam at all

[ravinia]

wanted to wait until I'd seen all three parts to see if my attitude would change.

After Origin, it hasn't. The Orii don't scare me, I'm just not interested. So melodramatic. Cliche Crusades-Christianity-Holy War plot line. At least the Goauld had some interesting complexity and uniqueness to them.

Finally, there are EIGHT YEARS of loyal fans out there. Change can be good, but you can't dismiss characters that have been beloved for EIGHT YEARS without explanation, with a few jokey lines that are delivered by sleepwalking actors. (Yep, the final scenes with Jack simply ruined the rest of the episode for me.)

If we didn't read gateworld, we wouldn't have a clue as to why Jack left the SGC or what he was doing. It's not like he's going to be returning like Sam's character, so we deserved to get some back story as canon. It's unfair to the fans, and it's a horrible disservice to the character.

[Excali5033]

Adding to what others said, the RDA appearance was a waste. It was almost like he purposely made Jack so unengaging that we won't miss him.

You know, you might be on to something there.

[TheCorpulent1]

wanted to wait until I'd seen all three parts to see if my attitude would change.

After Origin, it hasn't. The Orii don't scare me, I'm just not interested. So melodramatic. Cliche Crusades-Christianity-Holy War plot line. At least the Goauld had some interesting complexity and uniqueness to them.

Finally, there are EIGHT YEARS of loyal fans out there. Change can be good, but you can't dismiss characters that have been beloved for EIGHT YEARS without explanation, with a few jokey lines that are delivered by sleepwalking actors. (Yep, the final scenes with Jack simply ruined the rest of the episode for me.)

If we didn't read gateworld, we wouldn't have a clue as to why Jack left the SGC or what he was doing. It's not like he's going to be returning like Sam's character, so we deserved to get some back story as canon. It's unfair to the fans, and it's a horrible disservice to the character.

I thought the Goa'uld were much more melodramatic and boring than the Ori, myself. That was part of their appeal, actually, and Jack highlighted it a lot: They took themselves way too seriously and went way, way over the top. The Ori, on the other hand, have kind of a chilling simplicity to them at this point: either you believe in their message or you die. The Priors look like a pretty interesting enemy, too, in part because they're fairly understated. Rather than fighting back against the SGC personnel, one of them simply immolates himself.

But I totally agree with you on the Jack stuff. Those last scenes were awful and, after a couple of episodes of accepting that Jack would be gone, I now find myself missing him because his send-off was so bad.

[mtee1958]

I would have to disagree here. The little snippets of Jack in these episodes is a Jack I never knew. The guy looks half asleep. I love Jack but if he is going to sleepwalk through his scenes then he shouldn't be around at all. The word that comes to mind is "sad".

On the episode, it was GREAT. Unlike some past seasons, this one appears to be getting better and better with each episode.

I agree - I thought Jack was missing something -- no energy - he looked and sounded tired.

I liked the ep -- Landry was good -- liked his "I had a Grandma too" line - sweet. A modern Crusades - I can see why this scares Daniel more then the Gould -- more people will "fall" for the miracles and religious rhetoric than the menace of the G'ould.

Religious fervor -- so much good and so much evil has been done in it's name.
That's scary.

[EagleMorph]

First time, long time, yada yada yada.

As a long time viewer of Stargate (I actually rented the series premiere before it reached syndication or SCI-FI), I've always been more interested in the theology and mythology of the show than anything else. Thus, I've always been more interested in Daniel's parts and activities within the show than any other major storylines.

I firmly believe that "Origin" is among one of the best episodes that has been created, second to the three part arc of "Reckoning Part 1, Part 2, and Threads" last year.

For one, the visuals and the musical score add so much to this season of SG-1. Kudos to the art department and Joel Goldsmith for creating a wonderful environment for these characters and the storyline. And that storyline is absolutely fantastic. I figured, even knowing the spoilers, that the King Arthur storyline was basically a lead-in to something much larger, and it turns out I was right. That, plus added character development on behalf of Daniel and Vala, as well as Landry and Mitchell (but to a lesser extent), made this an extremely enjoyable show. Halfway through, as I got up to get another Pepsi, I looked at the clock and was stunned to see it was only 8:30 EST. I was sure that we were almost done, there was just so much packed into the story. I was pleasantly surprised to see that I still had another half hour of viewing to go!

To those who criticize the Ori for not having character depth: patience, my friends. You cannot create depth within a single episode. I have the feeling we will see our intrepid explorers band together to start recruiting allies in the next couple episodes, and then I think we'll return to the Ori and perhaps get some development going, especially once Sam returns in Beachhead.

Finally, I don't believe this is the end of Harrid and Sallis. I think I saw Park and Telek's names as being casted in an episode coming up, and I would assume they are resuming their roles as Harrid and Sallis respectively. I don't think we'll see another body-swap storyline, but perhaps SG-1 is able to visit Celestis and *gasp* everyone's A-ok!

Very kick-arse episode.

[ChillinTheMost]

I enjoyed it. Not as much as the first two, but that may be because there was less Mitchell. Mostly, I think it was because I was ready for the focus to leave the planet with Daniel and Vala and to get back to the group as a whole.

*************
I've only watched it once, so far, but some early reactions to the show and comments here:

As mentioned the Ori are not as individual and don't have the "passion" that the Go'ulds do. But I think that is what makes them scarier. With the Go'ulds, there was the opportunity to use their greed to turn them against each other. There were some you could trust more than others. There was something to work with to defeat them easier. With the Ori, one is like the other. They blindly all agree and have one undivided purpose and even if you destroy one, another just like him will take over - not one with perhaps even more weaknesses than the last one. There will be no reasoning with them, no turning of one against the other, no weakening from within. Cold, unforgiving, one-mindedness is scarier than passionate greed.

*************
As for the religion aspect, the Ori don't represent any branch of Christianity or any other religion that I know of. If anything, they resemble cults where the followers are relieved of their possessions, brainwashed, and not allowed contact with their families so that nobody can talk any sense into them. If the Ori start giving out Jell-O shooters: RUN!

So, I don't think the comparison is to Christianity or any other valid religion, but to those that use religion for their own deify-ment. [I know that's not a word. ]

*************
I agree with others that they were trying to do something with RDA's cameos that didn't quite work, but did anyone else think that RDA actually looked ill? Maybe it was the makeup, maybe it was because he didn't want to be there, but he didn't look healthy to me. I hope I'm wrong.

I did like the idea behind it though.
(1) Say good-bye to Daniel [should have included Teal'c, I thought, if in no more way than, "Teal'c and I are having lunch, want to join us?" - which may have helped those that thought his response to Daniel was abrupt: at least this would look like they would continue the conversation.]
(2) Get Mitchell "back on the horse after falling" and pass the reins to him. If RDA had been more enthusiastic about it, it might have worked. As it was, it looked like he was forced to leave and didn't want it to work out without him. I sincerely doubt this was the case, though.

*************
I thought they took a big chance in destroying the communications device. I thought Teal'c suggestion was just to take it through a wormhole and maybe the distance would break the connection. When they started throwing it through, I was worried it would break or whoever was on the other side would take it. If this didn't work, they'd need to get it back to try something else. I thought they'd just take it to the alpha site or someplace secure.

*************
I realize the real couple would probably have been killed soon anyway, but to finally return to your bodies to find them on fire. Chilling. I hope it went fast for them.

*************
Can't wait until the next episode. Can't wait to see them working more as a team. Can't wait for Sam to get back.

[keshou]

I thought the "I'm hungry" line totally didn't work in the scene as well, but just to defend the writers a bit: there was a time in seasons past when RDA could have pulled off something similar to Jack's "I'm hungry" line with a performance that reacted to Daniel's fears first through recognition and compassion and then pull Daniel out of it with a comforting "I'm hungry" with the subtext of "it's going to be all right".

I agree - I think this is what they were going for. In the past RDA, with his facial expressions and line delivery could have said "I'm hungry" and it would come across as Jack recognizing the gravity of the situation while at the same time spitting in the enemy's eye and reassuring his team. He was great at that stuff.

Unfortunately the lackluster line delivery and bland facial expression in this scene just made the "I'm hungry" fall flat. I'm going to give RDA the benefit of the doubt that he was tired or not feeling up to snuff.

And you know - as far as I'm aware RDA wasn't the one who wanted to come appear on the show in S9. Bridge/MGM/Scifi/whoever negotiated hard to get RDA to make a few token appearances.

RDA's moved on - for the right reasons and more power to him. So maybe expecting a lot of *oomph* out of these scenes may have been wishful thinking. Still it was disappointing.

Is RDA supposed to be making any more cameo appearances this season? If so I hope they'll have more impact and give us some better closure on Jack's tenure on the show.

And even though I am an S/J Shipper, I’m not so sure I want to see Sam with this version of Jack. He's nearly ready for a nursing home the way he was written and the way RDA played him!

I tell you - one of these days Sam's going to see the light and his name is McKay.

[ChillinTheMost]

I thought the Goa'uld were much more melodramatic and boring than the Ori, myself. That was part of their appeal, actually, and Jack highlighted it a lot: They took themselves way too seriously and went way, way over the top. The Ori, on the other hand, have kind of a chilling simplicity to them at this point: either you believe in their message or you die. The Priors look like a pretty interesting enemy, too, in part because they're fairly understated. Rather than fighting back against the SGC personnel, one of them simply immolates himself.

Somehow, I didn't read this before I posted. You said it better than I did.