Gemini (811)

[KatG]

well, the last time sam used jolinar's abilities, she almost killed daniel. or at least made him worse in Meridian.

I think one reason sam doesn't really embrace it is because it makes her different. For a while, she did use it. She used the healing device on cronos, the ribbon device on seth. But, if you think about it, she hasn't used it especially since Desperate Measures, when it nearly got her killed. (ok, so meridian was after desp meas, but i think it was a combo)

I think getting kidnapped and almost killed made it tougher for her to embrace that part of herself, then hurting daniel further shattered her confidence

I think goauld devices do require a physical component - the naqahdah in the blood of the host - and then a mental component, the confidence of the host in his/her ability to use and manipulate such devices

while sam may have the physical part, i don't think she has the confidence in herself anymore....and i don't think she wants to get it back.

Good point. As a woman in the military, she's already seen as "different". I imagine growing up and going through school, being as smart as she is, she was alos seen as "different". Now this is just one more thing that makes her "different."

I also think that she's afraid of her ability to use goa'uld devices. As you said that ability almost got her killed and then again almost killed Daniel. Why wouldn't she want to suppress it.

I'm thinking too, that having been shown her darker side via RC, that she may even be more reluctant to use those abilities, because of their potential to tap into that dark side of her personality.

[KatG]

because she went through it alone, she had to face it alone and...it wouldn't surprise me if she didn't gloss over things..

Yes, Sam never has been good as examining how she feels about things, in fact she's rather repressed.

RC had one big huge advantage....she knew exactly how to play everyone, including sam.

Exactly. She knew not only how Sam would react, but she also knew from Sam's memories, that Jack and Teal'c trusted her instincts, so if she could convince Sam, then she would be home-free.

[Skydiver]

Good point. As a woman in the military, she's already seen as "different". I imagine growing up and going through school, being as smart as she is, she was alos seen as "different". Now this is just one more thing that makes her "different."

I also think that she's afraid of her ability to use goa'uld devices. As you said that ability almost got her killed and then again almost killed Daniel. Why wouldn't she want to suppress it.

I'm thinking too, that having been shown her darker side via RC, that she may even be more reluctant to use those abilities, because of their potential to tap into that dark side of her personality.

she's also had the added burdens of

'you're colonel/general carter's daughter'
being pretty and blonde (yes, that can be a burden for a female)
you're a scientist, not a fighter
thinking, accurately or not, that jacob wanted another son

and more. I think, everything she's done, she's had to do it 100% better than everyone else.

this accounts for the huge chip that was on her shoulder in the early seasons although it has gotten better in recent years. Jack and george trust HER, not her gender, her. She doesn't have to prove herself to them.

After sam got jolinar, the boys supported her. you could see that in how they acted and treated her. Heck, Jack even based a whole mission on her gut feelings. I think that helped to pump up her confidence in herself and her abilities. But they also never pushed her to use them. Everything she did, was her choice.
THe one time she was pushed was Marty pushing her to use jol's memories to find a way out of netu...and Jack & co supported her doing whatever she wanted to do

They let her set the boundaries, and it appears that she's now decided to not pursue what jolinar left inside her

of course, it is also possible that in embracing that, she might find a way to defeat RC.

Right now, RC is the queen. the reps follow her. If sam can find a goauld based way to defeat RC, she can do the one thing RC won't expect her to do and will, effectively, cut the head off the snake.

Without a queen to dead/control them, the reps will become leaderless adn predictible...and easier to stop

I think, for sam to 'fix' what she did and find a way to stop RC, she'll need to embrace a part of herself that she doesn't want to. she wont' just have to acknowledge her dark side, she'll need to embrace it

[DarkQuee1]

Or if they had a bit more common sense.

It is easy to lay the blame at Sam's feet, but SG-1's first (and most fundamental) mistake was to trust the basic premise of RepliCater's ruse: that Fifth had found a way to defeat a weapon of Ancient design. Jack, as the base commander, was most at fault for that.

I think it went higher than that: I can't see something this big being decided on just at the SGC, not when there's a Homeworld Security in existence.

My problem with Sam in this ep is that she was suspicious enough at the beginning. I could have lived with it better if she had been on her guard and distrustful early on, but came to empathize with RC, seeing herself in the Replicator and lost her perspective. But she never seemed to be suspicious at all.

Then, at the end, she sees her error as teaching Fifth about betrayal. Poppycock. I think the other humanoid Replicators were fully capable of betrayal, so I don't think it was something Fifth had never encountered before. But even if it were true that he learned it from her, her real mistake was losing her distance as a leader. She had been in command and the problem was that she led with her emotions and not her head. She still hasn't made the hard decision.

I don't know if this was bad writing--her comment at the end suggests that the writers didn't see the real problem, either--or they intend to say something about Carter. The writing over the last 1-1/2 years has been so spotty and some things in eps so poorly conceived that there's no way to tell anymore what is characterization and what is sloppy and not-thought-through writing.
(The problem may have been compounded by the fact that Gemini and PU were probably being shot simultaneously and so Daniel was absent. If he'd been there, he could have played the "we must trust and be willing to talk" role, leaving Sam to play leader.)


J.

[yettobeseen]

This episode is unique because it arcs sg-1's seemingly infallible record. Sure they made mistakes in the past but this one could have been clearly avoided. And it has consequences far more devastating than anything in the past. It adds dimension to Carter's character (not degrade it), and maintains the threat of the replicators (which promises to be entertaining and thought-provoking in future episodes). But the reason for my post is to list signs I have seen that repliCarter should not have been trusted, and action sg-1 could have taken to avoid this fiasco.

1) if repliCarter really wanted to kill herself, she could have stepped through the wormhole and get smashed on the iris. She knew well enough to use Carter's IDC code, so she should have also known about a quick and painless death by the iris.
2) she could have just as easily been killed by the asgard in her home galaxy, or by threatening earth without having to explain herself. She doesn't need to convince people that she should be killed.
3) Sg-1 should have gathered more information about repliCarter's situation before agreeing to meet her. Or at least first meet her off world where there is no technology to assimulate or manipulate.
4) Carter should not have been allowed to oversee the interrogation because she would have been most vunerable to deception based on her own feelings and memories.
5) they should have been suspicision that it was possible for repliCarter to enter the galaxy without the others helping her. She would have needed a ship or a power source strong enough for an 8th chevron lock to another galaxy.
6) they should not have assumed that because repliCarter looks like Carter and has memories of Carter, she would also have the same personality and agenda as Carter. Would Carter really want to kill herself because someone is stalking her? Would Carter really be so irrational and hasty?
7) If Fifth really created repliCarter to be like Carter, he would have given her the cipher first. Not doing so only makes her vulnerable to earth and the asgard and if he loved her he protected her first.
8) they should have had the asgard test the disruptor on replicators to see that they really didn't work anymore instead of accepting what repliCarter said. What else does the asgard have to do now that replicators aren't a threat?
9) If repliCarter could access information from other replicators with the subspace link there would be no way Fifth could hidden a cipher from her.
10) if the replicators already knew how to circumvent the disruptor, there would be no reason why she would have needed to study it. She should have been able to access information on the disruptor from the subspace link and modify it without needing to study its design and running test (or she could have build an entirely new disruptor/weapon).

Sg-1 is usually great at detecting hidden information in a situation, but this time they didn't. But at least that information was still there for us to see.

[Gilder]

Just a quick question, not answered by keyword searches of the thread.

Does anyone know who played the hunky, chiseled SP Sergeant? The one who held the Disruptor when Teal'c had to leave the room?

The actor's looks are very striking, but for some reason I think I've seen him before...perhaps a male model or former Jaffa?

[KatG]

They let her set the boundaries, and it appears that she's now decided to not pursue what jolinar left inside her

of course, it is also possible that in embracing that, she might find a way to defeat RC.

Right now, RC is the queen. the reps follow her. If sam can find a goauld based way to defeat RC, she can do the one thing RC won't expect her to do and will, effectively, cut the head off the snake.

Without a queen to dead/control them, the reps will become leaderless adn predictible...and easier to stop

I think, for sam to 'fix' what she did and find a way to stop RC, she'll need to embrace a part of herself that she doesn't want to. she wont' just have to acknowledge her dark side, she'll need to embrace it

I think you're right, and it could really lead to some interesting stories. RC thinks she knows Sam, how Sam will react in any given situation. She would be well aware that Sam is reluctant to use what Jolinar left her. So she wouldn't be expecting an attack on that front.

I also think that embracing Jolinar's abilities is a huge step in the journey she began in Grace. Whether she likes it or not, it's a huge part of her, one that she needs to deal with and learn to control. Only by doing so will she ever fully realize who she is.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

I think, for sam to 'fix' what she did and find a way to stop RC, she'll need to embrace a part of herself that she doesn't want to. she wont' just have to acknowledge her dark side, she'll need to embrace it

We can only hope!

I'd so love to see Sam reunite with her inner Tok'Ra to fight RepCarter. I want her to play the conflicted character - on screen - to see her revulsion at her abilities(growing through practice), the effect using the hand devices has on her, especially now that she has to, as you say, acknowledge and embrace her dark side. I want the writers to make it hard on Sam - really, really hard.

[Erik Bloodaxe]

I agree that original Replicators were just a virus (although I also agree with Jack. "A very evil virus") And if none of the human-form Replicators developed emotions or became really human, that statement would probably stay true. But Now that Replicarter is in charge, they are evil. She has the emotions of Carter with the hate of Fifth.

Correction: she has the intelligence of Carter. And that's a scary notion indeed. So, yeah, she's a really scary form of evil now, but the sentient replicators are equally capable of being good as being bad (they go hand in hand after all); we just haven't figured out yet what it'd take to calm 'em down.

-Bloodaxe

[Skydiver]

Yes, Sam never has been good as examining how she feels about things, in fact she's rather repressed.
.

yes, she is

it's not just a fanfic cliche that sam's patent response is 'i'm fine'

she's always fine

new order spoilers

Spoiler:

after new order.....i have no doubt that she told the guys that fifth stuck his hand in her head....jack and teal'c would know that's what he would do. but i seriously doubt she told them what fifth showed her

i doubt she told them that fifth had her to tears, or that he tormented her with some pretty icky images

it's very possible that shes simply said that she didn't remember....just like last time

[KatG]

Yeah sure ya betcha. That's our Sam.

[chocdoc]

Excellent point Gracie. I think Sam was completely in character. I've always seen her as a mix between Jack's military approach and Daniel's scientific, people oriented approach, with leanings more towards Daniel's way of looking at things. Given the choice, rarely does she go with the military view, she invariably chooses the scientific approach.

McKay said in "Redemption" that she goes by instinct. Normally, that instinct has served her well. Rarely does she make a mistake. In fact, that's why she's often been referred to, quite negatively, as Super Sam.

Now, all of a sudden, her instincts are proven wrong. No longer is she "Super Sam" but a normal human being who makes mistakes. Wow, what a dilemma, and what a juicy plot twist with so much potential for angst. Every time they face Replicarter, Sam has to deal with the fact that she's out there because of her.

As for making a mistake, it's easy in hindsight to say that she did, but what if, as in the past, her instincts had been correct? What if Fifth and the other replicators had become immune to the weapon? It's not entirely beyond logical reason that they could have. In fact, it's quite possible. If this had been the case, and by working with Replicarter, Sam could have once again saved the day, then once again we would have seen Super Sam in action, and then of course people would have complained about that. Poor girl just can't win.

As for Jack and Teal'c, they're used to Sam's instincts serving them well in the past, why would they have questioned it now?

Overall, I think the episode left the door open for some interesting stories in the future. And I also think that it's part of an overall arc, beginning with Grace in S7 of Sam's growth as a person and seeing what makes her tick. And I for one am enjoying the process.

I completely agree with you, KatG. Couldn't say it better if I tried. Thanks.

Gemini, IMO, was exciting and entertaining. This was particularly so because of Amanda Tapping's excellent performance. I appreciated how she made subtle differences between Replicarter and Sam through body language, and particularly through her subtle difference in voice and inflection. AT plays evil well. It was a treat to watch. I think we learn a bit more about Sam in this one--her fears, etc, and I hope the writers put this to good use in future stories. And yeah, Sam was gullible, Replicarter lives, and this served the plotline for future episodes.

[chocdoc]

Wait, are you actually arguing that the replicators are inherintly evil incarnate? Sorry, but that's far too "black & white" than the case actually is. The original replicators were a virus; programmed to spread from world to world and do nothing but replicate. The humanoid replicators starting out w/ Fifth, however, had developed sentience; the "flaw" that was their humanity. This is what made them capable of both good as well as evil; you cannot be capable of evil w/o also being capable of good, no credible view of philosophy supports this. And Fifth very well might've chosen to be good, but the "betrayal" made him urge for revenge, but no one calls Jack an "idiot" for not having learned by that point to think more in terms of "shades of gray" and not seeing that such a temporary solution was maybe not the best one. That's because this is in-character for Jack, which is indeed a contrast to both Sam and Daniel, that do think in "shades of gray" and been more willing to trust Fifth. And Repli-Carter might've been capable of it even moreso, were she an exact replica of Carter's mind as has been encountered before; instead, she used the intelligence gained from Carter to trick her. And there's no one more capable of tricking you than yourself! This is the fact that so many seem to be missing throughout this thread; the best person to trick you is you, and a version being evil gives the motive to do so.

And for the record, "power-mad hate-filled obsessive" is a term far more befitting of humans as well as the goa'uld, beings that both have sentience and thus actually have the ability to be power-mad and a motive for being so; programs can only do what's in their programming, and "love" and "hate" are products of sentience, not programming. So, given that logic, they “never should've trusted the Tok'ra” either, because there are beings among them that are so “hate-filled” and “power-mad”. In fact, they should just “simply never trust any group of humans they ever encounter” either, because humanity are the ones that basically invented these vices. Maybe you'd prefer if they went out w/ a high dose of paranoia all the time and unwilling to trust anybody, but I actually like my stories w/ a nice bit of philosophical and psychological depth to them now and then. Notice how both Fifth and Repli-Carter never actually kill the members of SG-1 when they have the chance; still consistent w/ being "power-mad" but hardly consistent w/ being "hate-filled", and that's an intriguing subtle nod to the fact that it's the "humanity" of the replicators that makes them capable of good that also makes them capable of being so evil.



OK, fine then; then they also jeopardised the whole safety of the Earth and the conflict w/ the goa'uld by allowing the Tok'ra onto the base after first meeting them when it "could've" been a ruse, and I suppose had "no right" to trust them either, or to trust any other human that could be "power-mad" that's ever been allowed onto the base before either, or even trusting Teal'c being on the base who was once in league w/ the enemy; yeah, the series would've gone far if it exercised that whole "shoot first, interrogate the corpse later" philosophy.

-Bloodaxe

Great points. This is one of the best explanations I have read that gives a very plausible reason why Sam was tricked.

[Madeleine]

Wait, are you actually arguing that the replicators are inherintly evil incarnate?

Good grief no, I said nothing of the sort!

I described Fifth as a "power-mad hate-filled obsessive" - which he is, right? I never said that that was inherent, just that that's what he was like by the time Sam last left him.

I said that "[the replicators'] family history makes it an automatic threat to the entire galaxy" which is true, right? Nothing about evil in there.

And I described Replicarter as "obviously untrustworthy" - you might disagree, but you can't claim I'm calling the replicators "inherently evil incarnate"

And Repli-Carter might've been capable of it even moreso, were she an exact replica of Carter's mind as has been encountered before; ... And there's no one more capable of tricking you than yourself! This is the fact that so many seem to be missing throughout this thread; the best person to trick you is you, and a version being evil gives the motive to do so.

I'm not missing that at all - in a battle of wits with an evil version of myself that had been created and taught by an entity more knowledgeable than me I have no illusions that I'd have much luck. Which is why Carter should never have got into a battle of wits with it in the first place. She knew it wasn't an exact copy of her own mind but a copy built, adjusted and schooled by a power-mad hate-filled obsessive who obviously has plenty of additional knowledge that she doesn't possess...

And for the record, "power-mad hate-filled obsessive" is a term far more befitting of humans as well as the goa'uld, beings that both have sentience...

Fifth, however, had developed sentience

Right, Fifth is Sentient. So am I allowed to call him a power-mad (he wants to rule the galaxy) hate-filled (he certainly seems to me to have crossed that fine line between love for Sam and hate) obsessive (building a robot double of a woman is a bit obsessive ) please?

Maybe you'd prefer if they went out w/ a high dose of paranoia all the time and unwilling to trust anybody...

OK, fine then; then they also jeopardised the whole safety of the Earth and the conflict w/ the goa'uld by allowing the Tok'ra onto the base after first meeting them when it "could've" been a ruse, and I suppose had "no right" to trust them either, or to trust any other human that could be "power-mad" that's ever been allowed onto the base before either, or even trusting Teal'c being on the base who was once in league w/ the enemy; yeah, the series would've gone far if it exercised that whole "shoot first, interrogate the corpse later" philosophy. -Bloodaxe

The difference is that neither Teal'c, nor the Tok'ra were known to be intent on taking over the galaxy and also very much capable of taking over the galaxy. The SGC has every right to extend trust to unknown people, as long as they do not invite those unknown people into their brains and computer systems until after a healthy level of trustworthiness has been proved. Sometimes they do go too far (like in Entity, Prisoners etc) but generally it's all stuff that could only be seen in hindsight. Everything that happenned in Gemini was well-signposted.

Jack had the right idea with Camulus. Give him opportunities to show himself trustworthy... but never forget that he is a system lord and they have a history of treachery. He had no right to completely trust Camulus, and he didn't.

Sam doesn't normally give visitors access to the computers, the alphasite, the SGC (thank goodness Jack stopped that idea) and her brain in the name of 'trust'. She had no right to do it this time.

[binkpmmc]

you know, Madeline, reading your last sentence, "Sam doesn't normally give visitors access to the computers, the alphasite, the SGC", this jumped into my mind: remember in Hathor, Carter was dead set against letting Hathor into the briefing room never mind move around the SGC and she even went pretty far in challenging Hammond about it. Then we all know what happened when Carter, as the leader, and the rest of the women at the SGC formed the posse to stop Hathor, Carter even clocked Hammond to get it done.

My dismay is that that Carter seems to have disappeared over the past season and a half. Now we have a "desperate" Carter pandering to a "boy" and getting him not only access to the SGC but to the whole history in depth for no other reason than he was stupid and immature by following her to a top secret stakeout and almost got himself killed and we have her convincing O'Neill to let one of the main threats to the galaxy onto the Alpha Site, providing her access to the only weapon that can destroy the threat and letting the threat escape all because her "emotions" got the better of her.

I thought by now, especially in light of how she has been written in the first 6 1/2 seasons, she would have matured far beyond this point but instead all I see is digression. IMO, these are the types of mistakes Carter should have made as a young soldier, not as a mature, intelligent, Lt. Colonel who has been defending the world for the past 8 years. Since they announced the signing of B Browder, as much as I think Carter has been damaged lately, I have been saying that Carter should remain in charge of SG1 - I am now beginning to question that - I honestly do no think that, if I was under Carter's command as she is right now, that I would feel safe or confident in her abilities, as they have made her into a shell of what she was, IMO.) Some episodes that jump into my mind that had the Carter that, IMO, could be respected, are Enemies, Hathor, Singularity, Devil You Know, Jolinar's Memories, Emancipation, To'kra 1 and 2, Solitudes, to name just a few off the top of my head. The one though for me that really stands out as a clear deliniation of what Carter was to what she has become is Foothold. She was strong and confident in Foothold, she was a real leader. She knew there was a problem, she knew what she had to do and she kicked butt - there was no question she was going to win that war. Now I just see a shadow of that Carter, a soldier who, IMO, really doesn't know which way is up anymore.