Gemini (811)

[Jarnin]

Overall a great episode. Kind of predictable, but not so much that it ruined the episode.

This is the first episode that really brought out Teal'c's character for me. I never really liked Teal'c until now. He was so friggin hilarious in Gemini that I'm gonna have to go back and watch all his other episodes to see if I had missed something before.

The only thing that really killed the episode was when replicarter said "fifth modified all replicators to be immune to the disruptors effects, EXCEPT ME.". That was a really bad line. It felt forced, and it totally gave away the ending for me.

Still a great episode.

[Albion]

And, I still don't see how what happened in another episode to another character has any bearing whatsoever even if it was mentioned only once

Well, it has bearing if you think of the characters as three dimensional, 'real' people. They all have histories and so how they react to events now and how they make decisions is sometimes based on past experiences and knowledge. They don't act in isolation, as though they were born right at the start of each new episode. They build on previous situations and events, just like real life people. And that's what makes them interesting characters, rather than cardboard cutouts. Therefore, it's perfectly valid to bring up what they did previously in similiar situations in trying to understand their motivations now. Just as with real peple, their actions and decisions in the past are often the key to their actions and decisions in the present.


Albion

[Madeleine]

I have trouble believing you'd be so angry and quick to blame Daniel if he had been in Sam's position

Do you remember Daniel giving that girl in the perspex box a whole load of candles to go with the sheaves of papers she already had? I don't recall the words I used, but I'm sure I pointed out that it was a very dim idea. I'm sure I never rushed to his defence when people said he was stupid for giving the NID that translation in Affinity either. I'd offer another example to prove that I'm prepared to blame Daniel as much as I'd blamed Sam, but (a) I'm not answerable to anyone for my opinions of the show and (b) Daniel never did anything quite as obviously risky to the security of the entire Earth as what Sam did.

Although as people have pointed out Jack bears some responsibility for the debacle too at least he drew a line at inviting Reese's granddaughter back to the SGC. At least he gave an inkling that he remembered that Replicators can do some damage, can replicate, when they set a mind to it. Teal'c was not in the chain of command that made any decisions, but he should still have spoken up and told Carter that she was risking too much.

***

Hello, is that the Bank Of England? I'm a relative of the chap who's been robbing vaults all over London. He's worked out a way to get around your security! But if you show me all your security plans I'll give you tips on how to protect yourselves from him, cos I don't like him cos he's so bad... Yes, Tuesday afternoon's fine for me, see you there.

***

It's not like Sam hasn't shown a certain level of naivete in past seasons, ie: Prisoners, when she let Linea have access to the base computers, which Linea used to get gate addresses and to escape without trouble.

That was silly, but not such a big deal. True that they didn't know who Linnea was but Sam had no obvious reason to suspect Linnea of being able to destroy Earth and the galaxy on a whim.

Jump ahead to Linea, revisited, in Past & Present: When she discovered who "Kira" was, Sam was wary, while Daniel argued passionately for compassion towards Kira.(Was he branded an idiot? Perhaps, but not in any group I was in at the time.)

What was at stake in Past Present? The worst that could have happened was that Linnea could have harmed some people in the SGC. Not the entire galaxy.

Kira could quite easily have fooled them while they watched.

But because that one turned out well, Sam and Janet weren't judged as idiots....

Because the worst case scenario of Linnea Turns Bad is way way less serious than the entire Earth getting replicatored.

Ditto the time when, in Singularity, she dispbeyed a direct order and remained behind with Cassie. She trusted her intuition then, and everything worked out for the best. Was she an idiot then?

No, absolutely not. Worst case scenario = she dies. She didn't put the whole planet at risk.

... , Matter of Time, when she wanted to watch SG-10 get pulled like soft taffy into the blackhole, Line of Duty, when she stopped to perform mouth to mouth on a guy while they were under fire. I could go on.

MoT, I liked that she made a mistake; Jack pulled her up on it and it was a nice character moment. But her idea to observe the black hole was merely in poor taste, it didn't threaten a single life. Mouth to mouth? Sam made a snap decision in the heat of the moment, which was not at all the case in Gemini. Besides, if it was in any way wrong of her to do mouth to mouth (I don't think it was wrong) then Hammond is to blame for not having ordered full enough Risk Assessments.

Yes, she obeys orders, but she is also manipulative - repCarter told her so, and if anyone knows, it's repCarter.

Just cos Replicarter says something doesn't make it true.

All these traits, be they good or bad are part and parcel of what makes Sam, Sam and the hens have finally come home to roost for her.

I'd be a little more at ease with this ep if there had been some acknowledgement that they screwedd up in this ep. Jack absolved sam of all responsibility, fair enough, he's her CO and she never disobeyed his orders. But in that case he should have accepted responsibility for it himself. The focus at the end of the ep was all about whether it had happened because of Carter's actions in s6 and her innate personality. There was no focus on the fact that it was Sam's actions in showing all her top secrets to an enemy that led to the problem. Probably because that would have drawn attention to the great big plot-hole: It's way out-of-character for Sam to be such an idiot when matters of planetary security are at stake, and Jack would surely have kept a much tighter reign on things.

[Albion]

Ooooops. It's too late at night (or should I say way too early in the morning ) - my brain is fried. Got the wrong end of which episode was being discussed for a moment there. Ignore. <g>

Albion

[MajorSam]

Ok, i'm not going to quote anyone, but to all the people who are going on about, or argueing about Sam's stupidity, I agree sure it was definately a dufus thing for her to do, but honestly, imagine you're just at a normal work day, when all of a sudden an alien type clone thing shows up, asks to be destryoed. you realize "you" were made by an evil guy you betrayed. So you meet with him/her, and are shown how "you" were made to kill the people who are most important to you in your life. You know "you" can think and feel like you do. "you" went through, what, the most horrible nightmares you could imagine? How would you feel? I know that I couldn't see these things and be sickened by them. They're "you!" FCOL. Why would you expect "you" to be evil? "you" were put through horrors, and are now trying to escape and be killed because of them. I mean, driven to death because of not being able to live with yourself, or through more of things that go against everything you know and feel and believe in. I don't think everyone thinks "oh, well, she/he's been put through everything horrible that you could be put through, but ooooooh, i'm actually evil inside and so being put through that I must have turned so."

Ok, basically what i'm saying, is that you know yourself, and what you feel, belive in etc. If you were put through horrers like killing everyone you care about, why the )*$^* would you think that you'd be turned evil because of it? You'd be distraught, maybe even suicidal like Replicarter claimed to be. You know that's how you would react, so again, why would you pop up and be like "oh, well, I'd be turned evil!" you wouldn't!

Sam is a normal flawed human being, but people seem to not be able to accept when she makes mistakes. No one's super woman, why can't you accept her flaws? Maybe if she never did you'd think she's an unrealistic character who has no feelings, and TPTB made a silyl "perfect" person or whatever. Ya, it was a huge mistake but I know myself that I would be horrified for my other self! I wouldn't want to kill her, I'd try and make it better. It would disturb me to know what my life could have been, or still could possibly be like.

then there's all the fact that she's made by Fifth. Ok, Sam's a strong woman, despite making some mistakes. Fifth, although learning about "betrayal" is still a "flaw" himself. They don't know the extent of what he can do, although they do know he's evil. They all trust Sam, often with their lives. I seriously doubt that they'd say "oh, well, if Fiiiiiifth has her so she's going to crumble and become his puppet and do anything he wants and is thus evil" Nothing like this has ever happened, and judging by what's happened in the past, I say again, I doubt they would automatically be like "OOOH EVIL"

I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but about bringing her to the Alpha Site? She has all of Sam's thoughts and memories, she already knows all the addresses, it's not like they're giving her their most secret information!!!

Giving Reppy all the info. about the disruptor. All the stuff i've said so far is saying that yeah they'd be suspicious, but how could they know she's all evil? She comes, tries to get them to kill her, shows Sam some of the very personal things that happened to her by Fifth, and all that, and tells them that Fifth is immune and could come and kill them all. What choice do they really have? People have already said, they couldn't ignore her just for hte fact she was made by Fifth. Imagine what would have happened if she was telling the truth, they killed her, Fifth comes, kills them. Well I guess they wouldn't care then, would they...

I think it's unfair that, from what I see, no matter what they did in this situation, trusted her, or killed her, Sam is seen as this massive screw up who's an idiot and has put the galaxy at risk and bla bla.
So ya, Sam did make a mistake in this one, but honestly how could they have predicted such a thing would happen?

Sorry for all that... I hope it made sense. That's just some of how I feel on all the massive hating that Sam's been getting in the past almost 2 years now. I hope that you all give what I had to say some thought, and try to understand what I'm trying to say, because I know that sometimes people are soo close-minded. Again, to each his own (opinion)

MSam

[Angel of Fire SG1]

Ok, i'm not going to quote anyone, but to all the people who are going on about, or argueing about Sam's stupidity, I agree sure it was definately a dufus thing for her to do, but honestly, imagine you're just at a normal work day, when all of a sudden an alien type clone thing shows up, asks to be destryoed. you realize "you" were made by an evil guy you betrayed. So you meet with him/her, and are shown how "you" were made to kill the people who are most important to you in your life. You know "you" can think and feel like you do. "you" went through, what, the most horrible nightmares you could imagine? How would you feel? I know that I couldn't see these things and be sickened by them. They're "you!" FCOL. Why would you expect "you" to be evil? "you" were put through horrors, and are now trying to escape and be killed because of them. I mean, driven to death because of not being able to live with yourself, or through more of things that go against everything you know and feel and believe in. I don't think everyone thinks "oh, well, she/he's been put through everything horrible that you could be put through, but ooooooh, i'm actually evil inside and so being put through that I must have turned so."

Ok, basically what i'm saying, is that you know yourself, and what you feel, belive in etc. If you were put through horrers like killing everyone you care about, why the )*$^* would you think that you'd be turned evil because of it? You'd be distraught, maybe even suicidal like Replicarter claimed to be. You know that's how you would react, so again, why would you pop up and be like "oh, well, I'd be turned evil!" you wouldn't!

Sam is a normal flawed human being, but people seem to not be able to accept when she makes mistakes. No one's super woman, why can't you accept her flaws? Maybe if she never did you'd think she's an unrealistic character who has no feelings, and TPTB made a silyl "perfect" person or whatever. Ya, it was a huge mistake but I know myself that I would be horrified for my other self! I wouldn't want to kill her, I'd try and make it better. It would disturb me to know what my life could have been, or still could possibly be like.

then there's all the fact that she's made by Fifth. Ok, Sam's a strong woman, despite making some mistakes. Fifth, although learning about "betrayal" is still a "flaw" himself. They don't know the extent of what he can do, although they do know he's evil. They all trust Sam, often with their lives. I seriously doubt that they'd say "oh, well, if Fiiiiiifth has her so she's going to crumble and become his puppet and do anything he wants and is thus evil" Nothing like this has ever happened, and judging by what's happened in the past, I say again, I doubt they would automatically be like "OOOH EVIL"

I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but about bringing her to the Alpha Site? She has all of Sam's thoughts and memories, she already knows all the addresses, it's not like they're giving her their most secret information!!!

Giving Reppy all the info. about the disruptor. All the stuff i've said so far is saying that yeah they'd be suspicious, but how could they know she's all evil? She comes, tries to get them to kill her, shows Sam some of the very personal things that happened to her by Fifth, and all that, and tells them that Fifth is immune and could come and kill them all. What choice do they really have? People have already said, they couldn't ignore her just for hte fact she was made by Fifth. Imagine what would have happened if she was telling the truth, they killed her, Fifth comes, kills them. Well I guess they wouldn't care then, would they...

I think it's unfair that, from what I see, no matter what they did in this situation, trusted her, or killed her, Sam is seen as this massive screw up who's an idiot and has put the galaxy at risk and bla bla.
So ya, Sam did make a mistake in this one, but honestly how could they have predicted such a thing would happen?

Sorry for all that... I hope it made sense. That's just some of how I feel on all the massive hating that Sam's been getting in the past almost 2 years now. Again, to each his own (opinion)

MSam

I think that's longer than my English essay

Well said, I agree completely!! No one wants a perfect character, Sam is human, she deserves respect for it!!

Personally I prefered a flawed human-like character where I can sit there and think "Oh I've done that, that sucks" rather than "Oh wow she's just the perfect person"

Replicarter KNEW how Sam would react, she knew what she would do. She tricked her!! She shared emotion with her using that dream sequence that Sam related to quite well, pretending to share her emotions, pretending to care!!

So Sam was drawn in!! We've all had times when we were tricked into believing something and then realised after how stupid we were. Sam is just showing that its possible even for SG-1 to make mistakes.

[Madeleine]

But it isn't "you". It's a thing that looks like you, clearly has some of your memories, and claims to be "you". But it's a thing that admits it was made by somthing that wishes harm to Earth. however much it claims to be the same as Sam she ought to know that it isn't.

It didn't need any experiences to turn it evil. It was quite possibly made to be evil. We don't know, probably never will. Sam certainly didn't know. But she had every reason to suspect. You admit that they know Fifth was evil (I'd say amoral with a grudge against humans, but the effect is the same, to Earth). What possesses anyone to believe that he would have made a copy of Sam and kept it exactly the same as the original who'd hurt him? And since he was obviously going to tweak and adjust until he got the version he most liked, why is it not apparrent to everyone, especially SG-1 who know the replicators, that RC's going to be bad?

The goa'uld are born bad. One, only one, Egeria, turned good. She had mostly good babies. All other goa'uld stay bad. I can see that the SGC and especially Sam would hope that RC would turn out to be another Egeria, but to hand over the weapon like that and try to take her to Earth where she could quite feasibly destroy the planet on the offchance that such a slim chance could pay out is just not something Sam would do. This was an AU ep from an AU where Sam's brain has fallen out.

I think some people think I'm bashing Sam. Possibly, but then I think that for me to accept her behaviour in Gemini would be for me to do Sam a greater disservice still. I see this ep as Out Of Character for Sam, and will protest that, because in more than seven years she's always been pretty sensible, and every mistake she's made has been either a split-second decision under pressure, or a considered risk where she at least thought stuff through, even if she came to a 'wrong' conclusion. She's never made any error with such clear warning signs flashing as this.

Many people who like Sam have had problems with her behaviour in Affinity and chimera, not because she was 'wrong' but because it was out of character to get it so 'wrong'. My feelings about Gemini run in the same vein. I wouldn't have a problem with the ep if the dupe had been someone we'd had established as very dim (although I'm struggling to find any examples of such characters) because it would be a great example of how screwing up can make for a good story. It just rankles that they wrote *Sam* as dim, cos she's *not*.

Quite frankly i'm stunned that so many people have a problem with me having a problem with 42 mins of fiction about a fictional character that I have no obligation to like if I happen not to like it. This is how I feel, I didn't choose to feel like this it just happened while I watched the ep (twice).

FWIW I did look for the good in Carter. I didn't have a problem with the killing daniel with only a little hesitation and then stumbling over Jack's execution, because it was not Sam's vision, it was RC's. And RC is not Sam, she's an avatar of what Fifth would like Sam to be, based upon his own imperfect understanding of Sam. RC has been schooled by Fifth to think of her brethren as valuable but ultimately dispensable tools. He has however taught her total loyalty to her commander, ie Fifth. Okay, RC shrugged the lesson off, but it was still there.

RC applied these notions to Sam's life, 'killing' Daniel with some hesitation, but showing a much stronger reaction to having to kill Jack, because RC's knowledge of Sam is ultimately only RC's knowledge of herself, and that is how RC would expect a more moral version of 'herself' to behave.

[THE BIG UNIT]

I loved this episode, thought it was great. Great acting by Amanda Tapping.
RepliCarter was cool.

Sam made a mistake yes, but it happens, she's only human.
Every character has made mistakes in the past
This would be Sam's biggest.
Daniel gave Anubis the Eye of Ra in Full Circle, Anubis doublecrossed him and ended up majorly weakening the system lords, and earth was next on the list if they didnt destroy it later. He made a mistake, i dont hate him for it, or call him stupid.
I dont want to turn this into a character war (or Make it worse it seems).
I love them all, and they have all made mistakes. I dont hate any of them for it, it makes them more realistic to me. none of them are perfect.
Sam has been critisised alot in the past for Being "Superwoman", being to perfect and never screwing up, many were complaining about that. Well guess what? she screwed up. But i never saw that ending coming, RepliCarter betraying Fifth aswell. The fans got what they wanted, sam made a mistake. I also didn't see her as acting out of character either.

My post isnt to start more Sam VS Daniel crap, though why this is even an issue is beyond me, And I'm not talking about bringing up his past mistakes, i can agree that was relevant for the topic being discussed. I mean that there seems to be a fandom war between the characters, shame really. Sam may be my favourite, but i love them all.

Bye everyone and play nice

[MajorSam]

RC applied these notions to Sam's life, 'killing' Daniel with some hesitation, but showing a much stronger reaction to having to kill Jack, because RC's knowledge of Sam is ultimately only RC's knowledge of herself, and that is how RC would expect a more moral version of 'herself' to behave.

Ya, doesn't that show that exactly how much Reppy knows about Sam, and that she is 100% capable of manipulating her in any way, because she knows how Sam would react to these things and thus maybe it's not all Sam's idiocy that led her to do what she did?

Sry, i'm not saying that you personally blame it all on Sam, i'm just trying to say that it's not such a MASSIVE ALL HER FAULT HER CHARACTER HAS GONE DOWN TO THE DUMPS thing. I just don't see how some people (not saying that means anyone here, i've been checking out people's opinions on some other forums...) can think Sam has actually become so horrible beyond repair...

[alz0rz]

I just finished watching this episode, its ok . Touches on many topics/aspects..

AL_EPISODE_METER reports 3.5/5

[Shipperahoy]

I just want to say that I don't think that the Sam character has "gone down to the dumps". One bad judgement call does not a character make. The only reason I've made such a big deal out of it is because it seems such a glaring mistake. But it's not like I want to see her publically flogged or anything. And besides, I'm looking forward to seeing the repurcussions of this episode.

[Madeleine]

Ya, doesn't that show that exactly how much Reppy knows about Sam, and that she is 100% capable of manipulating her in any way, because she knows how Sam would react to these things and thus maybe it's not all Sam's idiocy that led her to do what she did?

No, it shows (me) how much RC *doesn't* know about Carter. She didn't act like Carter in that scenario, or even like Carter-unfer-Fifth's control, she acted like Fifth's vision of his ideal Carter having been taught by him, pretending to be compassionate. And she wasn't compassionate enough to fool me. I can see that Sam was confuddled, and I don't blame her for having *some* faith in RC after that. She just had no right to go putting the Earth's future in RC's hands on the basis of such (unproven) faith.

Sry, i'm not saying that you personally blame it all on Sam, i'm just trying to say that it's not such a MASSIVE ALL HER FAULT HER CHARACTER HAS GONE DOWN TO THE DUMPS thing.

No, her character hasn't gone down to the dumps IMO. She was great all through the first half of s8, really great. She made a mistake in Zero hour which I never even mentioned cos I thought it in-character, minor and not a plot-hole, but other than that she's been fine. The huuuuuge mistake she makes, and the even huger one she tries to make till Jack and Teal'c stop her come out of the blue.

I just don't see how some people (not saying that means anyone here, i've been checking out people's opinions on some other forums...) can think Sam has actually become so horrible beyond repair...

No, I don't see any "horrible beyond repair" about Sam either. But then it's not for me to see, it's for 'them' to see; it's 'their' opinion, and if it's what they really feel then it's a legitimate opinion for 'them' to hold.

I do like Carter; she was stupid in this ep but not unsympathetic or unlikeable. If this mistake was part of a chain of similar ones I'd lose respect for her in general, but at the mo it's a one-off, and so as long as it stays a one-off I'll keep my respect for her and blame the writers rather than her for it all

[MajorSam]

I do like Carter; she was stupid in this ep but not unsympathetic or unlikeable. If this mistake was part of a chain of similar ones I'd lose respect for her in general, but at the mo it's a one-off, and so as long as it stays a one-off I'll keep my respect for her and blame the writers rather than her for it all

haha, I love how always falls back on the writers

I just want to say that I don't think that the Sam character has "gone down to the dumps". One bad judgement call does not a character make. The only reason I've made such a big deal out of it is because it seems such a glaring mistake. But it's not like I want to see her publically flogged or anything. And besides, I'm looking forward to seeing the repurcussions of this episode.

that's good I just do know some people who can't accept the episode and enjoy what her mistakes will mean. Hey, it makes some good conflicts!

Once again, not aimed at anyone in this forum! Peace and love! Fluffy pink bunnies and such to everyone.

[Dani347]

Like Madeleine said, RC isn't Sam. Sam had no reason to trust RC. No, that's putting it mildly. She had every reason not to trust RC. And, I'm not going to say it's merely because RC was so gosh darn smart and manipulative. Maybe she was, but it doesn't negate how easily Sam was manipulated.

I also have to wonder why people are so upset that some of us are criticizing Sam for something she did. yeah, no one wants a perfect character, but that doesn't mean that when the character makes a mistake we aren't going to call her on it. It just doesn't work that way.

And, I don't have a problem with Daniel being criticized. Like I said, my view is, go to the thread for whatever episode you think he did something wrong and have at him. I may agree, I may not agree, that doesn't matter. My problem is when you say Daniel did this wrong, so why are you being so mean to Sam? If Daniel does something wrong or stupid, yeah, call him on it. But, just because you think that enough people haven't called him on past mistakes is no reason why Sam shouldn't be called on this one. Or, reverse them. If it was Daniel doing something so stupid (and, if he had done the same thing, it would have been stupid) than whatever mistakes Sam made in the past would have no bearing. Heck, if you said J/S ship made mistakes in the past (I know, ship isn't a person. Work with me here) and then say, "so why are you talking about Sam?" I'd say J/S ship had no bearing on this. And, if you don't know how I feel about the ship, I'm not working hard enough. It's not about fandom wars, it's about finding reasons why a mistake of Sam's shouldn't be criticized. Other people have made mistakes? Yes. Doesn't mean a darn thing as far as the fact that Sam made a mistake. Sam's made mistakes before? Yep. So what? She's still going to get criticized for this one. RC looks like Sam? No, RC isn't Sam, never was Sam, and it doesn't take someone with half a brain cell to know that she isn't Sam.

You (this is all a general you) may think what Sam did was hunky dory. that's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. But, there is absolutely, positively, world without end, no reason why people who do feel that she made a glaring mistake shouldn't say so.

[the dancer of spaz]

But, but, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to hone in on the idea that RC, a replicator was probably lying. Saying she had Sam's feelings and memories and that should make a difference? Well, don't you think that's exactly what she would say? Shouldn't they have thought that this was another trick? I mean, really. RC isn't George Washington at the cherry tree. The idea that she could tell a lie should have been first and foremost in their mind. There's having an open mind about people and there's having a mind so open, it's empty.

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? And, besides, I thought they DID suspect that she was lying to some extent - if not Sam, then at least Jack and Teal'c. I mean, a lot of people (who've seen the ep, might I add - I am not a candidate) have made many good points over the past two days. SG-1 thought they were doing the right thing, and that they had to take the risk because it was both possible and PLAUSIBLE for Fifth to become immune to the disruptor. Plain and simple.

How many times has the Goa'uld adapted to Earth's technology in the past? And these are freakin' Replicators, for crying out loud. They're instinctual, destructive bugs who literally feed off of technology. And then you add the fact that they're HUMAN form, and it makes a lot of sense for Fifth to have figured something out. What else COULD they have done? If Sam/Jack/Teal'c had sat back and twiddled their thumbs because they didn't believe RepliCarter, and THEN Earth had been attacked, people (fans) would have been complaining about how it was a bad decision to take NO actions against Fifth at all.

Really, as an audience, we are able to see every angle of the situation, from the way they cut to characters' expressions, to the change in music, to basic plot elements that other characters just will not ever see. It's the director's job, and, if they do it well, they'll be able to keep fans guessing throughout the ep. That's the way it is. These characters, while strategically well-versed in Intergalactic Baddy Tactics, are not always going to see the black and the white so clearly.

Plus... personally, I spoiled myself beyond all reason, so I had SOME idea of how this was gonna pan out. Heh heh...