Divide and Conquer (405)

[hlndncr]

Some people don't like Sam/Jack. Others of us love it! Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[fems]

My only comment regarding the whole Jack/Sam was there/wasn't there a *thing* is to say that I sensed from Jack more chemistry with Freya. What? What?

What? Are you saying there's more chemistry between Freya and Jack than there is between Jack and Sam? Otherwise I have no idea what you're trying to say here...

[shipper hannah]

In both Jack’s and Sam’s cases the results are a false positive—a false memory is indicated where none exists, and what about Lt. Aster? Was she also a false positive?

No, they got a false positive because they weren't telling the whole story. The recollection of the memory was false, not the memory itself.

[hlndncr]

In both Jack’s and Sam’s cases the results are a false positive—a false memory is indicated where none exists, and what about Lt. Aster? Was she also a false positive?

No, they got a false positive because they weren't telling the whole story. The recollection of the memory was false, not the memory itself.

I don't think the question was refering to Sam and Jack. I think the question is if the machine gives false positives, as we know it does from Sam and Jack's testing and subsequent retesting, then did it also show a false positive in Lt. Astor's case?

I think we can safely say that the reading on Astor was not a false positive. In the case of Sam and Jack we have no other evidence of them being za'tarcs other than the machine. We have other, independent factors demonstrating that Astor was compromised and I believe that was the impression the writers were trying to give.

First, her CO Major Graham went crazy and tried to kill high councilor Persus earlier and when he was unable to complete the mission killed himself. They were both on a mission where the members of the team were separated, surrounded by Jaffa and yet returned unharmed. If one member of that team was compromised at that time it's reasonable to assume others could have been as well.

Second, when Freya attempted a procedure on Astor that would tamper with the Goa'uld programing she became violent and self destructive in the same way Major Graham had done. Unless the procedure itself causes such extreme and erratic behavior (making it very ineffective as any kind of a cure), then Astor's reaction was a result of a failsafe mechanism in the za'tarc programing to prevent just such an occurance.

So I don't believe in the case of Astor it was a false positive.

[Dave2]

And why wouldn't the possible zatarc be restrained completely during the process to prevent him/her from escaping like the Lieutenant? And if the Head of the Tok'ra council could be tested in advance, then surely Martouf could have been. Any Tok'ra should have been given their access to worlds and espionage work.
And then one would ask how the goa'uld would have known that there was supposed to be a meeting with the American president that Martouf would even attend.......
And why is it that Lantash survived after Martouf was riddled with bullets, but other symbiotes die with the host under far less dangerous circumstances?
Was the zatarc seeking to kill Jolinar on Earth also suicidal?? I don't recall that he was programmed for suicide.

[hlndncr]

And why wouldn't the possible zatarc be restrained completely during the process to prevent him/her from escaping like the Lieutenant? And if the Head of the Tok'ra council could be tested in advance, then surely Martouf could have been. Any Tok'ra should have been given their access to worlds and espionage work.
And then one would ask how the goa'uld would have known that there was supposed to be a meeting with the American president that Martouf would even attend.......
And why is it that Lantash survived after Martouf was riddled with bullets, but other symbiotes die with the host under far less dangerous circumstances?
Was the zatarc seeking to kill Jolinar on Earth also suicidal?? I don't recall that he was programmed for suicide.

Jolinar was hunted by an Ashrak.

They explain how Lantash survived in Summit.

I agree that it was ridiculous that Martouf was never tested.

There is a goa'uld spy in the Tok'ra's midst--Tanith.

[fems]

Plus we don't know what SG-14 told the Goa'uld during their interrogation/capture after which they were zatarced. IIRC, Anise/Freya only theorized that they would kill themselves if they missed their objective or if there was a time limit at all (perhaps they'd zatarced Martouf just in case for future events).

But I agree that it's ridiculous they would even know about the USA having a president (although it could've been learned like the cotton-thing in Rules of Engagement), but that often happens because apparently there's a galactic watercooler and grapevine. I mean, how would they even know Jacob (or Selmak's host) was Sam's father? Or that Sam has been host to Jolinar?

[Dave2]

Tanith was being fed FALSE information for his goa'uld master, so how would he have been able to program anything in Martouf except possibly at the very last minute, perhaps passing him in the hallway, since evidently the device or program required only a few moments to set up in the person.
However, the fact that the Tok'ra KNEW that Tanith was a spy should presumably mean that ALL the Tok'ra officials should have been tested, including Matouf.

Jolinar was hunted by an Ashrak.

They explain how Lantash survived in Summit.

I agree that it was ridiculous that Martouf was never tested.

There is a goa'uld spy in the Tok'ra's midst--Tanith.

[hlndncr]

Tanith was being fed FALSE information for his goa'uld master, so how would he have been able to program anything in Martouf except possibly at the very last minute, perhaps passing him in the hallway, since evidently the device or program required only a few moments to set up in the person.
However, the fact that the Tok'ra KNEW that Tanith was a spy should presumably mean that ALL the Tok'ra officials should have been tested, including Matouf.

I didn't mean that Tanith programed Martouf just that he had the information about the summit. Although the Tok'ra were feeding him false info, they were rather incompetent at keeping him under control. In Exodus he escapes and has a hidden ship waiting for him that the Tok'ra clearly didn't know about, which tells me he could have gotten some good information through.

[Dave2]

So then the story left out the likelihood that just before the Tok'ra headed for the stargate to come to Earth they passed Tanith in the hall, and he asked them where they were going. And they told him the *truth* that they were going to meet the US president. And he just zapped Martouf? That's the only scenario that makes sense. But of course why would they tell him the truth?

I didn't mean that Tanith programed Martouf just that he had the information about the summit. Although the Tok'ra were feeding him false info, they were rather incompetent at keeping him under control. In Exodus he escapes and has a hidden ship waiting for him that the Tok'ra clearly didn't know about, which tells me he could have gotten some good information through.

[hlndncr]

So then the story left out the likelihood that just before the Tok'ra headed for the stargate to come to Earth they passed Tanith in the hall, and he asked them where they were going. And they told him the *truth* that they were going to meet the US president. And he just zapped Martouf? That's the only scenario that makes sense. But of course why would they tell him the truth?

That's just ridiculous. SG1 and Major Grahams team were there making preparations for the summit for what appeared to be sometime. It wouldn't have escaped Tanith's notice what was going on. He's not stupid and he is a spy so he's actively seeking out information to pass along. Since the Tok'ra don't even have doors it's foolish to believe they could completely control the information flow to him.

I'm satisfied with the possibillity of Tanith as the probable source of the goa'uld's intel. I don't need it all spelled out for me. If that doesn't work for you, then what's your theory?

[Dave2]

Well, considering the practice of the Tok'ra is to provide only false information to Tanith, I don't have a theory other than what I suggested. I presume the preparations for the meeting were kept very secret and that Tanith wouldn't know about it, or perhaps they misled him. Yet he was able to program Martouf anyway despite the false info.......

That's just ridiculous. SG1 and Major Grahams team were there making preparations for the summit for what appeared to be sometime. It wouldn't have escaped Tanith's notice what was going on. He's not stupid and he is a spy so he's actively seeking out information to pass along. Since the Tok'ra don't even have doors it's foolish to believe they could completely control the information flow to him.

I'm satisfied with the possibillity of Tanith as the probable source of the goa'uld's intel. I don't need it all spelled out for me. If that doesn't work for you, then what's your theory?

[fems]

No one says it was Tanith who did so. We don't know what kind of technology is needed to make someone a zatarc but I doubt he could easily hide it on the doorless Tok'ra base (I assume spies got more careful after Cordesh). As a matter of fact Anise/Freya said something which suggests Martouf was zatarced on a mission or at least not on the Tok'ra base.

ANISE
I have not been in any situations where I would be vulnerable to the Goa'uld Zatarc technology.

[hlndncr]

Well, considering the practice of the Tok'ra is to provide only false information to Tanith, I don't have a theory other than what I suggested. I presume the preparations for the meeting were kept very secret and that Tanith wouldn't know about it, or perhaps they misled him. Yet he was able to program Martouf anyway despite the false info.......

First of all, I should have been more specific to say that included in my statement that your earlier post was ridiculous was the idea that Tanith was the one doing the brain washing. You also seem determined to ignore the very real possibility that despite the Tok'ra's best efforts to give Tanith only wrong information it would be practically impossible to keep everything from him without raising his suspicions. And maybe some of the meetings were held in secret but that conference with SG1, Major Graham and the Tok'ra was in a conference room right out in the open; so it sure didn't look like they were trying to hide anything.

My point, as always, is use your imagination!

Maybe you should try reading some fanfic. There are many authors that frequently come up with interesting additional scenes and story ideas that fill in some of the issues the show of a necessity skims over.

[Dave2]

Did the Stargate writers ever take any serious interest in fan input on episodes, especially when there were holes in the plot, or did their vanity get in the way, i.e. that at the salary levels they were at they couldn't possibly have made any writing mistakes??

First of all, I should have been more specific to say that included in my statement that your earlier post was ridiculous was the idea that Tanith was the one doing the brain washing. You also seem determined to ignore the very real possibility that despite the Tok'ra's best efforts to give Tanith only wrong information it would be practically impossible to keep everything from him without raising his suspicions. And maybe some of the meetings were held in secret but that conference with SG1, Major Graham and the Tok'ra was in a conference room right out in the open; so it sure didn't look like they were trying to hide anything.

My point, as always, is use your imagination!

Maybe you should try reading some fanfic. There are many authors that frequently come up with interesting additional scenes and story ideas that fill in some of the issues the show of a necessity skims over.