Divide and Conquer (405)

[leiasky]

Verdande, have you watched from Season 1 on, in order? You'll find that, with a few exceptions, that you'll be able to watch the episodes and not see any sort of ship between them at all. The exceptions being the episodes that dealt directly with those feelings, or the hiding of them.

I'm definitely eager to hear your opinion as you get further into the seasons

[Anda]

One of my faves because of the confession. I'm serious, me and my mom like jumped up and were like " YES!!!!"

Yes I did it too.The confesion scene was cool

[leiasky]

It would have been interesting to see what kind of fallout there was from the confession. Teal'c and Dr. Frasier witnessed it. And the Doc would be concerned about the regs, yes? She seemed to be in '100 days' when she asked if this concern Sam had over finding Jack was 'going to be a problem'.

[Verdande]

Verdande, have you watched from Season 1 on, in order? You'll find that, with a few exceptions, that you'll be able to watch the episodes and not see any sort of ship between them at all. The exceptions being the episodes that dealt directly with those feelings, or the hiding of them.

leiasky, yes I have watched from Season 1 on, in order. I'm up to Window of Opportunity right now. And I do agree with you that in the episodes so far, with a few exceptions, the episodes can be watched without any noticeable ship between O'Neill and Carter.

Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

As for the relationship between O'Neill and Carter, I thought the series quickly established that they were attracted to each other (Broca Divide, Brief Candle, Out of mind). It also established that O'Neill and Carter had strong feelings for each other (Solitudes), but not necessarily romantic feelings. And the development into a more romantic attraction between O'Neill and Carter has been fairly well done in my opinion. Although I did think they were a bit overly coy with the alternate realities and alternate versions of Carter and O'Neill, and their alternate romantic feelings for each other. This previous coyness was probably one of the reasons I was surprised by how openly Divide and Conquer talked about the strong feelings between O'Neill and Carter.

The first time I realized that Carter was in love with O'Neill was in A hundred days, from the scene with Carter and Dr. Fraiser in Carter's lab. But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension?

[Verdande]

It would have been interesting to see what kind of fallout there was from the confession. Teal'c and Dr. Frasier witnessed it. And the Doc would be concerned about the regs, yes? She seemed to be in '100 days' when she asked if this concern Sam had over finding Jack was 'going to be a problem'.

But is the fact that O'Neill 'cares for Carter, a lot more than he's supposed to', the same as breaking the "regs"?

Interesting that you bring up the scene in Hundred Days, I interpreted Fraiser's question as concern for Carter's feelings. But you're completely right, it could also have been about the "regs".

[EvenstarSRV]

Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

As for the relationship between O'Neill and Carter, I thought the series quickly established that they were attracted to each other (Broca Divide, Brief Candle, Out of mind). It also established that O'Neill and Carter had strong feelings for each other (Solitudes), but not necessarily romantic feelings. And the development into a more romantic attraction between O'Neill and Carter has been fairly well done in my opinion. Although I did think they were a bit overly coy with the alternate realities and alternate versions of Carter and O'Neill, and their alternate romantic feelings for each other. This previous coyness was probably one of the reasons I was surprised by how openly Divide and Conquer talked about the strong feelings between O'Neill and Carter.

The first time I realized that Carter was in love with O'Neill was in A hundred days, from the scene with Carter and Dr. Fraiser in Carter's lab. But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension?

Hope you guys don't mind my jumping in here, but I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I'm pretty new to fandom myself, although I've been watching Stargate for a couple of years now, so terms like shipper/anti-shipper were new to me as well. Although my viewing of Stargate so far as been wildly out of order (ie seeing Unending before Children of the Gods ), I also think that the development of the relationship between Carter and O'Neill has been handled pretty well.

I kinda consider myself to be more of a non-shipper, rather than pro or anti, in that I don't really have a personal preference of whether Sam and Jack should be together. As long as their relationship seems to progress naturally and realistically to me, and like you said doesn't overshadow other aspects of the show that I enjoy, then I'm pretty happy with how it's been portrayed.

On the topic of this episode, while I enjoyed the Carter/O'Neill za'tarc storyline, the most memorable part of the episode for me was the ending with Sam granting Martouf his final wish by killing him. I found it very tragic and it actually led me to become a fan of the show rather than just a casual viewer.

[leiasky]

But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

That's really the crux of the conversation right there. Everyone who sees the episodes (preferably in order so one can see how the relationship/interactions progress) interprets things differently. I enjoyed how it was done in the show and even got very frustrated during some years when it seems the tension/angst had been forgotten completely. You'll find that the team gets close and their friendships are stronger for it - until Season 8 when Jack has to make some decisions about the safety of the SGC as a whole while risking the lives of SG1. It's all very angsty, and at the very center of that are Sam and Jack and their feelings that they've pushed aside because of duty.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension?

I love how their relationship is progressed and am most definitely in the shipper realm. How you define a shipper, well, I think that's probably dependent on the individual so its not an easy question for me to answer. There ARE some Sam and Jack threads on GW if you want to take a look through them.

[Finger13]

leiasky, yes I have watched from Season 1 on, in order. I'm up to Window of Opportunity right now. And I do agree with you that in the episodes so far, with a few exceptions, the episodes can be watched without any noticeable ship between O'Neill and Carter.

Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

As for the relationship between O'Neill and Carter, I thought the series quickly established that they were attracted to each other (Broca Divide, Brief Candle, Out of mind). It also established that O'Neill and Carter had strong feelings for each other (Solitudes), but not necessarily romantic feelings. And the development into a more romantic attraction between O'Neill and Carter has been fairly well done in my opinion. Although I did think they were a bit overly coy with the alternate realities and alternate versions of Carter and O'Neill, and their alternate romantic feelings for each other. This previous coyness was probably one of the reasons I was surprised by how openly Divide and Conquer talked about the strong feelings between O'Neill and Carter.

The first time I realized that Carter was in love with O'Neill was in A hundred days, from the scene with Carter and Dr. Fraiser in Carter's lab. But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension?

Yes, a shipper is someone who wants to either see feelings between characters, or want actual relationships. The term could mean other things, like jokes between two incompatible characters, but they are typically between individuals in the series where a relationship could very well be possible, or may even exist just isn't mentioned. So there are the classic Jack and Sam shippers, or Daniel and Vala shippers (those two were the most obvious in SG-1, along with perhaps Sam and Orlin). In SGA there are Rodney and Jennifer shippers, Shepperd and Weir shippers (ha, their hopes were crushed), Shepperd and Teyla shippers, Ronan and Jennifer shippers, the list is endless.

Shippers and anti-shippers tend to bend certain scenes to fit their assumptions, and speculate about various scenes and such. So something that may seem completely innocuous to you or me might be blatant proof of a relationship or feelings to another viewer.

But unless it comes right out in the open, like for instance with Rodney and Ronan both liking Jennifer on SGA, then it's all speculation, however founded or unfounded the assumptions may be.

I was personally never a shipper for anyone, but some people find enjoyment in it.

If you do watch Atlantis, there's even Todd and Mr. Woolsey shippers after seeing The Lost Tribe hahahaha .

[leiasky]

But is the fact that O'Neill 'cares for Carter, a lot more than he's supposed to', the same as breaking the "regs"?

Interesting that you bring up the scene in Hundred Days, I interpreted Fraiser's question as concern for Carter's feelings. But you're completely right, it could also have been about the "regs".

The regs are a grey area in which the writers respected the AF enough not to allow the characters to break the regs, but the actual true MEANING of said AF regs could be worked around to give those characters a chance to be together. But this is television (and now film) and keeping that tension and angst is what sells.

[Melora]

Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

The whole shipper/anti-shipper debate is a very complex one in this fandom. For a long time, there was a lot of tension over this very issue and you still see the more zealous anti-shippers and shippers still fighting about it here and there. In fact, “Divide and Conquer” was actually the episode that started the great ship wars between anti-shippers and shippers. From what I’ve read, it got pretty ugly on both sides for a while.

Anyhow, this is how I would define the different points of view on the ship issue:

Shippers: I would say that shippers are those fans who like the romantic relationship between Carter and O’Neill and like to see how it plays out on screen. Some are more passionate about it than others. The passionate shippers are the fans who demand nothing less than a confirmation that Carter and O’Neill are together in some form (dating, married, having babies, etc.).

However, there are other shippers who are okay with how the ship has been presented and enjoy it for what it is. For example, I do not need confirmation even though I think it would be nice to have in the end. I differ from a “canon” fan in that the ship is probably the thing I find most enjoyable about the show and I started watching because of it.

“Canon” fans: I would say these are the fans who see and acknowledge the romantic feelings between the two characters, but who prefer other aspects of the show more. They don’t hate the relationship, but prefer to watch the show for other reasons. These fans have been happy with the way the writers handled the ship for the most part because it was mostly kept in the background. I would include most non-shippers in this group.

Anti-Shippers: Just like with the shippers, there are also many types of anti-shippers.

Some dislike the ship b/c they don’t like romantic storylines on a sci-fi show. Those fans are the “noromos.” They believe any hints of romance turn the show into a soap opera.

Then there are the fans who see the romantic feelings between the two characters and dislike how it is depicted. Many of these fans feel that the ship detracts from the storylines of the other characters and the “team” feeling of the show. Sometimes they even feel that the writers make the two characters act "out of character" to cater to those fans who like the ship.

Then there are those who deny that there is a ship. They believe the romantic feelings between Carter and O’Neill are completely one-sided and not returned. In the eyes of these fans, Carter is like a simpering school-girl with a ridiculous crush on her superior officer. In many of these fans’ opinions, not only does O’Neill not return her feelings, he also doesn’t really like her on a personal level. Of course these same fans seem to think Carter should be court-martialed for the numerous incompetent acts she has committed, so I’ll let you come to your own conclusions about that.


Of course, this is a bit of an oversimplification of the issue. There are other fans who have slightly different takes on this on both sides. The interesting thing is that if you ask the more zealous anti-shippers or shippers for their definitions, you will get completely different answers.

For example, some anti-shippers feel that if you like or tolerate any hint of the ship, it makes you a shipper. Some shippers think if you dislike the idea of Jack and Sam getting married and having babies, then you are not a shipper. It can sometimes be very confusing.


I hope you enjoy the rest of the series and that the ship never feels too heavy-handed for you. I don’t think this will happen, but you never know.

[leiasky]

On second thought, you may want to stay out of the shipper /anti - threads until you've watched the whole series. Make your OWN conclusion based on what you saw, and then step into the threads if you want. It really is a whole new ball of wax!

[Verdande]

Although my viewing of Stargate so far as been wildly out of order (ie seeing Unending before Children of the Gods ), I also think that the development of the relationship between Carter and O'Neill has been handled pretty well.

On the topic of this episode, while I enjoyed the Carter/O'Neill za'tarc storyline, the most memorable part of the episode for me was the ending with Sam granting Martouf his final wish by killing him. I found it very tragic and it actually led me to become a fan of the show rather than just a casual viewer.

Evenstar, I did watch a few Stargate episodes out of order too, somewhere around late season 5 and early season 6, before I began watching. I got curious about the show after seeing a couple of really good episodes (I especially remember Abyss) and I liked the humor a lot, so I decided to watch the entire series, starting at the beginning. I haven’t been spoiled for anything really important so far, I think.

Are you planning on watching the series in order too?

I have to admit that my attention was mostly focused on Carter and O’Neill in Divide and Conquer, but yes, it was sad to see Martouf die. I never really got into the Jolinar storyline all that much, but Martouf definitely didn’t seem as duplicitous as some of the other Tok’ra we've seen.

[Verdande]

The regs are a grey area in which the writers respected the AF enough not to allow the characters to break the regs, but the actual true MEANING of said AF regs could be worked around to give those characters a chance to be together. But this is television (and now film) and keeping that tension and angst is what sells.

leiasky, as for the regs and keeping the tension on television – I totally get it. Forbidden love has always been a good plot device!

On second thought, you may want to stay out of the shipper /anti - threads until you've watched the whole series. Make your OWN conclusion based on what you saw, and then step into the threads if you want. It really is a whole new ball of wax!

I do agree with you, I think I’ll stay away from the shipper/anti-shipper threads on the forum. So far I’m mainly staying in the episode discussion threads for episodes I’ve already seen. I really enjoy being ‘mostly unspoiled’.

[Verdande]

Shippers and anti-shippers tend to bend certain scenes to fit their assumptions, and speculate about various scenes and such. So something that may seem completely innocuous to you or me might be blatant proof of a relationship or feelings to another viewer.

Finger13, I totally get that. Everybody interprets scenes differently, especially when feelings and intentions aren’t expressed directly and openly.

It’s what makes life on the forum interesting, I guess…

[Verdande]

Melora, thank you again for your thorough summary of the shipper/anti-shipper debate. And after watching Divide and Conquer, I’m not surprised to hear that it was the episode that started a lot of the controversy.

However, there are other shippers who are okay with how the ship has been presented and enjoy it for what it is. For example, I do not need confirmation even though I think it would be nice to have in the end. I differ from a “canon” fan in that the ship is probably the thing I find most enjoyable about the show and I started watching because of it.

It’s nice to hear where you place yourself in this dimension . If you started watching because of the ship, that would mean that you didn’t watch the show from the beginning? About where in the series (and ship) did you first start watching?

Then there are those who deny that there is a ship. They believe the romantic feelings between Carter and O’Neill are completely one-sided and not returned. In the eyes of these fans, Carter is like a simpering school-girl with a ridiculous crush on her superior officer. In many of these fans’ opinions, not only does O’Neill not return her feelings, he also doesn’t really like her on a personal level. Of course these same fans seem to think Carter should be court-martialed for the numerous incompetent acts she has committed, so I’ll let you come to your own conclusions about that.

Really????

I hope you enjoy the rest of the series and that the ship never feels too heavy-handed for you. I don’t think this will happen, but you never know.

I hope so too, and I’m glad I found you guys at GW. It’s a lot more interesting to watch Stargate when I can discuss these things with other fans. Other fans with insight and interesting viewpoints, no less.