Save the Asgard! (Spoiler!)

[Thoraximus]

Just to say, it's called "mundicide" when a whole civilisation is destroyed.
I registered for this.
lol.

[PG15]

All right then, if I had to re-word it for you I will:

The Asgard like anyother species in the universe, would not destroy their entire civilization, there is that CLEAR enough for you.

They haven't. They have destroyed their species, which they have been doing so slowly for eons now. They have given most of their cultural greatness to us. Didn't you wonder why Danny would sacrifice his life to protect the Odyssey and the Asgard legacy?

Let's face it, the Asgard are the best species in the Stargate Universe, with ideals and a cultural mindset which surpasses even the Ancients.

Based on what, exactly? How does one assess which species is the "best"?

So the Asgard should really be the oldest race in the universe, they act like it, the Ancients don't.

And how would WE know how the oldest race SHOULD act like?

As for the genetic drift, due to over cloning, I laughed my head off when I heard that, because any beings as advanced as the Asgard would have fixed that long ago.

Stem Cells for one.
Nanobots for another.

And as we have yet to clone a human (as far as I know), how do you KNOW exactly what complications may arise, and how do you KNOW that the Asgard can overcome them?

When the Asgard said that they have tried everything, I laughed MY head off when I read people giving out other solutions thinking that the Asgard can't possibly have thought of them and ruled them out for reasons they didn't tell us.

[Wraith_Boy]

Wraithboy, to commit suicide because all clones are dying just now is a bit overstreching the logic.

The problem is that I don't disagree with that statement. In fact if you check previous threads about this, you'll see I said it was a silly thing to do & not realistic in any way!

What I disagree with is the fact that they faked their death because of the Ori.

They could easily have built more ships than the Ori. They had weapons to destroy the Ori ships with a few shots.

Therefore they wouldn't have ever needed to run & hide! Before 'Unending' it doesn't even look like they knew about IDA or anything, otherwise they would have went & finished them off first. Asgard were a much bigger threat compared to Jaffa, Lucian Alliance Earth etc because they were much smarter & technologically advanced than all the others put together. SG-1 never knew what the Asgard were planning to give them or that they had developed a new uber weapon, so it couldn't have have been leaked to them.

The simple fact is the writers wanted a big way to finish the series off. The biggest one would have been the Ori blowing up the SGC in an attack. However they said they never planned on doing anything as radical as that because it wasn't good for future re-runs or something along those lines. Sci-Fi also told them they didn't want it to end on a cliffhanger. So magically defeating the whole of the Ori in the space of 30mins wasn't really an option for them to take.

So we then move onto the writers biggest love, that being killing people off & blowing stuff up. This leaves a few options for them. Say kill off the Jaffa, Lucian Alliance, Nox, Tok'ra or whatever. Most fans really wouldn't care perhaps barring the Tok'ra or at a stretch the Jaffa, whereas a lot more would if it was the Asgard. Not only beause it seems everyone really likes them but also because they have been the only real ally that the SGC has had since the very beginning.

I agree that it wasn't a realistic thing for them to do, all I have a hard time believing is that they faked their death, then will appear magically out oif thin air one time in the future & grin, then reveal the details of their scheming plot to run & hide from the Ori. Despite them having spent the last few thousand years protecting the humans of the MW from the Goa'uld.

They never even had the chance to meet the high council before the Ori showed up. So they were caught off guard & blew themselves up on the planet.

Unless the timeline is changed in 'Continuum' then the Asgard (much as I hate how it played out) are all dead!

All right then, if I had to re-word it for you I will:

The Asgard like anyother species in the universe, would not destroy their entire civilization, there is that CLEAR enough for you.

To the writers they would!

Realistically they wouldn't have done it. They wouldn't have tested a new cure on every single member of their race. To condemn every single one to death. It would have been slowly done to test subjects, then the results monitored & examined over time.

A few would never have been given it just incase it all went wrong. The infected ones would have been placed in stasis pods, while the unaffected ones worked to sort the mess out. The Asgard would have been all over Atlantis from day 1. The other logical option was to use advanced robots in which to store their consciousnesses, such as what SG-1 found on Altair. This way they never would have needed to worry about physical degredation to their 'living' bodies ever again. Another option would have been to download their minds into ships like what we seen with Thor in the past.

As a complete last resort, they could have placed themselves in stasis, or their minds into portable computers. Then entrusted themselves to the SGC in the hope that they could one day find a cure for them. They flet it good enough to call them the 5th race & entrust their legacy with the humans. So what's a more fitting way than to trust your entire race to them. If they couldn't find anything, then they will die. So they had nothing to lose by doing such a thing.

They could have taken the Trea/Tria & let the Asgard grab all the stasis pods. They had a neural network. So while giving them extra 100's/1000's of years to work on their problem. They also could interace with each other through the pods & work together on the problem.

They could have used human clones, then advanced them using the machine that Anubis used on Khalek. These humans would be able to carry the Asgard consciousnesses.

One other thing they could do was use the ascension machine from 'The Tao of Rodney'. Get someone advanced, then have them solve the cloning problem through advanced ancient knowledge.

However it's the writers that make the show. They have done it their way & that has resulted in the Asgard being killed off. It's as simple as that!

[Mitchon]

They could bring them back in some form.
For example is anyone aware of the book 'Aliens the Answer?' which puts forth a theory that greys are evolved dinosaurs?
There was an episode in Atlantis where a team comes through the gate frantic saying they were chased by a T Rex, now imagine a return to that planet only to find it a Lantean experiment involving the aging nanites from 'Brief Candle' left for 20'000 years to the point they find proto Asgard coexisting with Dinosaurs.
Then they could expand from there such as grab a couple and download Asgarde memories into them.

[Adler17]

Wraith Boy, I agree totally with the reasons for deleting the Asgards. They were the best to do so. They were loved by the fans and except the destruction of SGC it was the most shocking event.
Also I see the flaws in my theory. They could have built more ships and the Ori had massive problems. Why they didn't? But there are also flaws in the whole story about the Asgards. They could have done much more to rescue themselves without committing suicide.
And that's the point: You needed the death of the Asgard as a big show effect for the final. But there are logical flaws in it due to the circumstances.
Also it would be a surprising and good show effect to "resurrect" the Asgard in the third series or Atlantis (latter uinlikelier). And we fans should make pressure that this happens. The way to do this is IMO not very relevant and I do not say nor ever said my solution above would be the only answer. Indeed there are many. As long as the Asgard return it would be okay IMO. If they don't make many logical flaws with that, of course (indeed why not copying the brains into computers and giving them to SGC when they give them already all über- weapons they have).
That's the only thing I want. But therefore we should all agree about this aim to have a chance. Then there is a chance. And a surprising resurrection could be also a good PR action for the third series.

Adler

[Mister Oragahn]

It is simple: we're dealing with a brainbug which says that if your show ends, you got to kill or destroy something huge or important, otherwise it does not feel complete.

The fact is, the Asgards were far more capable to fight. They may have died in a few months or so, or in a couple of years after a few more degenerative clonings, but they had a technology which would have let them produce more ships, automatised systems and so on.

The sheer fact that they crawled out of the play like that, cramming all of their gadgets into a low tech alien ship is just stupid, and giving nothing else, not even a fraking ship, is stupid.

Yes, those suckers didn't even leave ships. How can this be logical?

They were many other ways to have them bow out, more intelligently. More honourably.

For example, build a massive arkship with all their tech and minds stored inside, and fly somewhere, while leaving Orilla auto-producing weapons against the Ori, complete with self defenses (come on, if they had time to put those new guns on the Odyssey in a hurry, they had much more ressources, time and power to transform their planet into a fortress), anti-Ori scanning devices and Tau'ri friendly codes, ATA scans and all that. The planet would be controlled by humans from the Tau'ri. Asgard minds stored in computer cores would still work with the humans on Orilla, and would still be required to allow the use of all the asgard tech.
Orilla itself could have been put into a time dilation field where it goes faster inside.
Aside from that, you could have had the Asgard trying to solve their problem in a virtual reality, while controlling machines in some giant lab. From the moment they can have their minds stored in spaceship computers - hell, even a ha'tak can do that - I don't see a problem with that.
It's probably better to live inside artificial bodies than remaining stuck into ugly and degenerative biological doomed meatbags.
Remember that the Asgards were not short of destroying the minds of clones to transfer their own minds into those bodies in the process - not better than the criminal activities perpetrated on the Jackson Whole.

Now, imagine how ominous it would feel to have mighty and empty temple-like asgard ships controlled by minds in machines and holograms.

All what I suggested above would have made the Asgards great, worth respect, impressive, and all that.

But I guess it's not what the show runners wanted. It was far better to have them be ridiculized over the final seasons, made them so trivial, so casual, until they'd be blown out in a pityful manner, to move the audiences.

What is wrong is not that the Asgards were gone. It's how they're gone.

And what? All what I suggested would be risky?
More risky than giving all you have to the barbaric humans?
Please.

[apc3161]

I completely agree with Mister Oragahn.

Remember that episode where Thor controlled the Hatak vessel because his mind was downloaded into the ships computer? Well if the writers weren't retarded (assuming they don't put some sort of twist on this), they would have realized the Asgard simply would have followed this path on a grander scale.

I'm sure the Asgard were capable of buildings Androids just as complex as the bodies they were inhabiting, and I'm sure these Androids could have been installed with some type of computer like system capable of storing the Asgard minds. So instead of inhabiting biological bodies, they would be inhabiting equally capable Androids. Once they did this, they could have taken their sweet time finding a cure and then eventually go back into the bodies of clones. This idea of mass suicide is a joke. Definitely not a cool way for the best race in the SG series to go down, it ruined the show in my opinion.

[Lord batchi ball]

Somehow I don't think the Asgard would have liked living in a computer, to go from a body to a computer would be downgrade.

And the Asgard were a little worried about a enemy getting thier hands on the Oniell, and what you guys are talking about would easily be a ship just as advanced as the Oniell or more and it would also contain the Asgard race in the computer, so I don't think that was ever a option.

remember they called us the Fifth race so they had a great deal of respect for us and they took into account are warlike nature but are good qualities shined through and we were thier only friends that the show mentioned were still around and they wanted someone to remember them so they had no other choice but us.

IMO thier is no better way to go out in bang and big bang

[PG15]

Learning from the lessons of Star Trek's "The Doomsday Machine", I think it's a VERY bad idea to leave behind automated battleships that could blow you to bits in no time wandering around the galaxy. If the program controlling it malfunctions, what are you left with?

Oh yes, a DOOMSDAY MACHINE.

That's why I think they gave us upgrades instead of Asgard ships. Wth an upgrade at least we'll have some bits of our own construction left to relate to and develop from. With an all-Asgard design, it'll be very difficult to understand all the intricacies. Heck, we may even set off programs that we are not familiar with (i.e. the X301 fiasco).

[Mister Oragahn]

Learning from the lessons of Star Trek's "The Doomsday Machine", I think it's a VERY bad idea to leave behind automated battleships that could blow you to bits in no time wandering around the galaxy. If the program controlling it malfunctions, what are you left with?

Oh yes, a DOOMSDAY MACHINE.

That's why I think they gave us upgrades instead of Asgard ships. Wth an upgrade at least we'll have some bits of our own construction left to relate to and develop from. With an all-Asgard design, it'll be very difficult to understand all the intricacies. Heck, we may even set off programs that we are not familiar with (i.e. the X301 fiasco).

And if the program in the Odyssey malfunctions, what are we left with?
Oh, the same crap.

See, you can reverse it as well.

Look, that malfunction thingy would be a very unfortunate exception. I've never heard of asgard comps failing. Besides, you actually found a plot premise for an episode, not a plothole.

Al though I talked about automatized systems, I also mentionned asgard minds and Tau'ri members being necessary, as "failsafes", to control these machines.

Really, cramming all the Asgard ending within five minutes of the episode, and farting their whole planet out in a big bang was lame, and served no purpose.
They just had devlopped a new kind of weapon that was effective against the Ori. The Asgards should have died fighting. Not died like failing cowards.
Talking about anti climax really...

[Mister Oragahn]

Somehow I don't think the Asgard would have liked living in a computer, to go from a body to a computer would be downgrade.

And the Asgard were a little worried about a enemy getting thier hands on the Oniell, and what you guys are talking about would easily be a ship just as advanced as the Oniell or more and it would also contain the Asgard race in the computer, so I don't think that was ever a option.

remember they called us the Fifth race so they had a great deal of respect for us and they took into account are warlike nature but are good qualities shined through and we were thier only friends that the show mentioned were still around and they wanted someone to remember them so they had no other choice but us.

IMO thier is no better way to go out in bang and big bang

A downgrade? Cause living in clones of clones of clones which keep getting worse step after step, is worse than continuing to live in a society where sentient beings are now stored inside powerful, pure and perfect cybernetic shells?

I can see that it's an idea that may frighten the average Joe on Earth, swapping your body for a machine, but not to the Asgards. They were beyond that. Their own genetic code was apparently so crappy that even ascension was impossible for them.

So why not try to emulate ascension with mechanical physics, EM waves, virtual realities and consciousnesses stored in computer cores? Why not create a massive intergalactic AI web, much like in Hyperion universe?

[Lord batchi ball]

They destroyed TWO Ori motherships when they blew themselves up I call that die Fighting, The ori never expected it like the replicators never expected the Asgard to blow up the Oniell.

Woops!! maybe Carter gave them the idea to blow themselves up!! Talk about bad advice, Carter!!

[Mister Oragahn]

They destroyed TWO Ori motherships when they blew themselves up I call that die Fighting, The ori never expected it like the replicators never expected the Asgard to blow up the Oniell.

It was a stupid move, considering that the weapons were effective against the Ori, and that the Asgards had ships.

The power they used to destroy the planet... they could have used even a fraction of that for shields and weapons. Or even a time dilation field.

Hell, they could have actually hyperspaced their whole planet away - assuming they could artificially keep the biosphere in check - but we're talking about those who turn suns into black holes, use replicating systems, hop between galaxies within minutes and know how to dilate time.

[Lord batchi ball]

It was a stupid move, considering that the weapons were effective against the Ori, and that the Asgards had ships.

The power they used to destroy the planet... they could have used even a fraction of that for shields and weapons. Or even a time dilation field.

Hell, they could have actually hyperspaced their whole planet away - assuming they could artificially keep the biosphere in check - but we're talking about those who turn suns into black holes, use replicating systems, hop between galaxies within minutes and know how to dilate time.

Stupid yes but it worked and remember Carter gave them the stupid idea to blow up thier super advanced ship so if you want to blame someone for blowing up the Asgard blame Carter!!

They could have done everthing you mentioned (like the planet going into hyperspace we think alike on that front) but the Asgard are big on "what if" what if the shield did not raise or somthing went wrong then the Ori would get the Asgard tech. This was the only way to make sure that thier tech did fall into enemy hands.

[YanBrassard]

The Asgards were nice and they were the first to accept to help us and to share some of their technologies. I really love their spaceships. They are very nice. I always cry about the die of this race. I think that it wasn't the moment for them to destroy their homeworld.

I think that there's still a colony of Asgards who's alive. Do you remember the episode that Jack had all the Ancients knowledge in his brain? He created a ZPM and he used it to activate the 8th chevron. He passed throught the Stargate and he went in another galaxy. He met for the first time the Asgards. All we actually know about this far colony of Asgards is that it is in another galaxy. I think that there's still some Asgards alive and they are there.

Maybe it is still possible to go back in the past and to save the Asgards. We actually know that it is possible to go in the past with the stargate.

PS: I hope that my English is good because it is not my language and I'm actually doing the best to learn this beautiful language. I'm a French from Canada's Quebec province.