The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[esoap524]

Say, out of curiosity, did you watch Lost City? I'm wondering whether watching that gives 'new fans' a greater appreciation of the problems many have with the retconning of Mitchell's significance in the battle over Antarctica.


P.S.

I have it on DVD (a friend loaned me 7 and 8) but haven't seen it yet. I did want to watch it because of the Mitchell thing, though.

As for Mitchell...believe it or not, I wasn't overjoyed with the way they brought him in either. They could have had him as a "hero" but not necessarily associated with SG1. That was much too contrived. Bring him in as new guy, highly recommended by whomever. Let Carter get irritated that she got bumped...or not, because she didn't want it anyway. Whatever. Let there be some conflict between the team, so that they have to look past what so many of us do in real life--working for someone we deem inferior but learning to appreciate that person.

I'm all right with conflict--I LOVE conflict on TV because it's drama. And people usually grow from conflict. If I turn on the TV and week-in, week-out everything's hunky-dory between the characters, why am I watching? And the George Costanza answer "because it's on TV!" isn't going to cut it.

BTW, I agree with the barf

[Skydiver]

there was no conflict, and that made the whole cam and vala thing very unbelievable.

cam basically demotes sam. no matter how you dress it up, sam got set aside simply because cam is a man and cam is the new leading male and we all knwo that a FEMALE can't be the boss.

does sam get frustrated? does she complain? does she question? do daniel or tealc? the very same folks that had issues with makepeace being made thier boss a few y ears ago now have no issue with someone with zero gate experience being made tehir boss

it's unrealistic

vala's another example of totally avoiding conflict. she spent most of uninvited shooting her mouth off, quipping off for the comedic relief, and quipping off in such a way that would have earned anyone else a 'oh just stuff it'...but they cant' say that to vala, they might hurt her feelings. so they just roll their eyes and move on

cameron nearly gets his team killed in OTG, and does anyone care? does anyone get frustated with him? or take him aside and go 'dude, you screwed up'...no, musn't have anyone questioning the hewo and star

everyone is so in love with each other and afraid to question each other that there's no conflict and it's boring.

jack and daniel used to bicker. jack would get pissed at teal'c's jaffa revenge thing. he'd get annoyed iwth sam babbling, he'd get tired of her questioning him

they would all disagree adn conflict with each other even as theyu'd die for each other. those interactions are what made the show. not space ships and effects and skimpy costumes.

that junk is a dime a dozen and available on every cheesy show out there.

the character interactions and conflicts are what made the show great. and it's what we dont' have anymore. we just h ave a bunch of people wearing the same uniform - or close to it - going through the motions as the writers try to cover up thier slipshod work with effect after effect,and are too pumped up with thier own sense of greatness to even consider that their definition of 'great' isn't quite measuring up to what they used to be able to do

[scarimor]

everyone is so in love with each other and afraid to question each other that there's no conflict and it's boring.

Yeah. Remember when Daniel called Jack a "son of a b-tch"? Remember when they all used to have issues with each other but would give their lives for each other? I miss that. I miss the drama.

[esoap524]

there was no conflict, and that made the whole cam and vala thing very unbelievable.

cam basically demotes sam. no matter how you dress it up, sam got set aside simply because cam is a man and cam is the new leading male and we all knwo that a FEMALE can't be the boss.

does sam get frustrated? does she complain? does she question? do daniel or tealc? the very same folks that had issues with makepeace being made thier boss a few y ears ago now have no issue with someone with zero gate experience being made tehir boss

it's unrealistic

vala's another example of totally avoiding conflict. she spent most of uninvited shooting her mouth off, quipping off for the comedic relief, and quipping off in such a way that would have earned anyone else a 'oh just stuff it'...but they cant' say that to vala, they might hurt her feelings. so they just roll their eyes and move on

cameron nearly gets his team killed in OTG, and does anyone care? does anyone get frustated with him? or take him aside and go 'dude, you screwed up'...no, musn't have anyone questioning the hewo and star

everyone is so in love with each other and afraid to question each other that there's no conflict and it's boring.

jack and daniel used to bicker. jack would get pissed at teal'c's jaffa revenge thing. he'd get annoyed iwth sam babbling, he'd get tired of her questioning him

they would all disagree adn conflict with each other even as theyu'd die for each other. those interactions are what made the show. not space ships and effects and skimpy costumes.

that junk is a dime a dozen and available on every cheesy show out there.

the character interactions and conflicts are what made the show great. and it's what we dont' have anymore. we just h ave a bunch of people wearing the same uniform - or close to it - going through the motions as the writers try to cover up thier slipshod work with effect after effect,and are too pumped up with thier own sense of greatness to even consider that their definition of 'great' isn't quite measuring up to what they used to be able to do

Actually, someone being your boss who isn't qualified happens every damn day, and I'll bet it happens in the military too. A lot. So, that part, I can deal with as "real". What isn't real is that people aren't p.o'd about it. I've had to work for people who've worked for my company for less than two years, yet got the promotion over others, even though they knew significantly less. Sometimes it's worked out and that person was fantastic, and sometimes it stunk. Either way, people were upset.

Now, I don't know that Sam is the kind of character who would have complained anyway, but Daniel might have said "hey, wait a minute." Then again, when Mitchell was assigned, he was supposed to gather a new team, presumably comprised of people whom he out-ranked. He was the one who insisted on gathering the old team, knowing that he'd need their expertise. The missing is that they didn't actually let him use that. He was never assigned to lead this SG1 team--he chose that team.

Regardless...

I've said it before and I'll say it again--the "dumb" things Mitchell did after Vala left were the kind of dumb things she would have done, and been perfectly in character for her, but were totally not in character for Mitchell. When he pulled that lever or pressed that button in "Prototype" I thought--hey, that's Vala's line.

[jeb]

It's understandable in the context of the story but that doesn't make it believable, which is important when you run a semi-realistic show.

I very much agree with Skywalker, conflicts and complex characters is part of what made B5, Farscape or X files first seasons much more interesting imho,
Conflicts have definitively been missing in the past few years, the show too often took the easy path to please everybody.

tho, it's sometimes not required, for instance the black and white Twilight Zone serie (which is just a bunch of non related episodes).

[Deejay435]

I agree. The writing is what killed stargate but I have to personally say that it is getting better again. I think the writers were just having a rough time manageing two shows but they finally have got the hang og it.

That was a point I forgot in my post-sharing the writing/production team between two shows certainly hastened the demise of SG1, I think.

But I agree, Season 10 has been getting steadily better-I've enjoyed more episodes, thus far, than I haven't. I can't say that for Season 9.

BTW, I agree with the barf

I find this funny, because, if X-Files weren't on right before the 6PM re-run of SG1 I'd be scratching my head, wondering how anyone could think the end of X-Files was that bad. Because I'd never really seen the end. I missed the last several seasons, and honestly though I'd watched the show till the end. LOL. I caught some of the later seasons while waiting for the 6PM SG1 and wondered what the heck was going on.

[Skydiver]

i agree. i think, in doubling the work load, they did stretch themselves too thin. Perhaps some of the writing that we find so poor can be attributable to too few doing too much in too sh ort of a time....and thus doing a good portion of it poorly

I do also think that the ever shrinking creative pool alsoplays a part. when the same group of people are writer, director, exec producer, it doesn't open it up very much for a differing pov or objective eye

if rob writes, directs, produces an eps, when does anyone else have time to look over his work and point out that glaring plot hole?

I think they could have greatly benefitted from one Creative Consultant or Script Editor, someone whose sole job was to basically beta the scripts. look for the oddities, fill in the plot holes...and that someone needed to NOT be someone involved in writing them in the first place

[Shipperahoy]

Yikes! I wonder who would volunteer to beta Rob's work? I can just see it now. "Ummm...Mr. Cooper...this part here...well it...umm...see the thing is...I know you sign my paycheck and all but..."

[Mitchell82]

I need to say that while i keep saying that I love Cam and Vala and how I don't believe they killed the show, I also don't beleive that the weitting has been bad since Mallozzi and Mullie joined the team. Some of my favorite episodes, funny and serious were written by them. I just can't agree with that the writting has been bad across the board for years and going down hill year by year. I think that the writing is still great and I don't have a single episode that I actually hate. There are some I like better than others, but none I wouldn't rewatch. So in short no Val and Cam did not klill the show. Some fans who couldn't ecept change, which I happen to love, Scifi screwing with the programming, and not enough promotion killed the show. I have loved the show for 10 years and have enjoyed all 202 episodes that have aired so far and I am sure I will enjoy the final 13. I loved Cam, Vala and Landry and am sorry to hear that some didn't and that some have thought the show has declined the last 6 years. I have never felt this way and will eagerly await the last 13 episodes of an excellent series.
'

[Mandysg1]

I need to say that while i keep saying that I love Cam and Vala and how I don't believe they killed the show, I also don't beleive that the weitting has been bad since Mallozzi and Mullie joined the team. Some of my favorite episodes, funny and serious were written by them. I just can't agree with that the writting has been bad across the board for years and going down hill year by year. I think that the writing is still great and I don't have a single episode that I actually hate. There are some I like better than others, but none I wouldn't rewatch. So in short no Val and Cam did not klill the show. Some fans who couldn't ecept change, which I happen to love, Scifi screwing with the programming, and not enough promotion killed the show. I have loved the show for 10 years and have enjoyed all 202 episodes that have aired so far and I am sure I will enjoy the final 13. I loved Cam, Vala and Landry and am sorry to hear that some didn't and that some have thought the show has declined the last 6 years. I have never felt this way and will eagerly await the last 13 episodes of an excellent series.
'

Now you see that's a fallacy, it's not that fan's can't accept change, it's that they didn't like the changes, which is different. I believe the ratings for the beginning of S9 were good, which means the fans were willing to give it a chance, being disappointed in what was done is not being unwilling to accept change, maybe they expected the changes to be handled well, with good writing and good characterizations, unlike what we got in S9. IMO

[Mitchell82]

Now you see that's a fallacy, it's not that fan's can't accept change, it's that they didn't like the changes, which is different. I believe the ratings for the beginning of S9 were good, which means the fans were willing to give it a chance, being disappointed in what was done is not being unwilling to accept change, maybe they expected the changes to be handled well, with good writing and good characterizations, unlike what we got in S9. IMO

Ok I'll conceed that some fans didn't like the changes. I'm just happy their are a signifigant amount of fans that did.

[Stef]

I actually like the addition of the two new characters. They got me interested in the show for the first time in the ten years it's been on. Part of that is due to Ben Browder and Claudia Black (who I loved on Farscape) but I also think that they make things more fun. I remember liking Vala in the commercials and thought she was funny so I decided to give the show a try. I don't necassarily LOVE Cam but he's likeable and I think fits well. Because of my new interest in the show, I have just gone back and started watching SG-1 from the beginning through DVDs. Although, I like the chemsitry between the original cast I do miss some of the sheer energy that Cam & Vala bring. So say what you will about them but they are the only reason why I watch SG-1...and the only reason I've gone back to watch older seasons (to see what's led up to now). I don't know how many other people feel this way but when you're waging a battle for ratings, something like this should not be ignored. I know many Farscape fans who started watching simply for Ben & Claudia and got hooked. I'm not going to say the switch is better...but from what I hear, the show was starting the get tired after 8 seasons (which is to be expected) and a new cast change-up was a good idea.

-Stef

[Mitchell82]

I actually like the addition of the two new characters. They got me interested in the show for the first time in the ten years it's been on. Part of that is due to Ben Browder and Claudia Black (who I loved on Farscape) but I also think that they make things more fun. I remember liking Vala in the commercials and thought she was funny so I decided to give the show a try. I don't necassarily LOVE Cam but he's likeable and I think fits well. Because of my new interest in the show, I have just gone back and started watching SG-1 from the beginning through DVDs. Although, I like the chemsitry between the original cast I do miss some of the sheer energy that Cam & Vala bring. So say what you will about them but they are the only reason why I watch SG-1...and the only reason I've gone back to watch older seasons (to see what's led up to now). I don't know how many other people feel this way but when you're waging a battle for ratings, something like this should not be ignored. I know many Farscape fans who started watching simply for Ben & Claudia and got hooked. I'm not going to say the switch is better...but from what I hear, the show was starting the get tired after 8 seasons (which is to be expected) and a new cast change-up was a good idea.

-Stef

I someone that doesent think things were getting tired after 8 years. I still thought it was a great show. I was alittle leary about Ben and Claudia even though I loved them on Farscape. But I really like their addition and agree that they do add to the show.

[the fifth man]

I someone that doesent think things were getting tired after 8 years. I still thought it was a great show. I was alittle leary about Ben and Claudia even though I loved them on Farscape. But I really like their addition and agree that they do add to the show.

Of course they've added to the show, they're great actors. IMO, Beau Bridges has been a fine addition as well. I never thought I'd get to like someone as much as I did Hammond, but Landry has gotten very close. This has been a great show for 8 wonderful years, and personally, I don't think that has changed at all for Seasons 9 and 10. I still thoroughly enjoy watching this show each week.

[ReganX]

Any change, no matter what, will lose a show some viewers.

It's hard to find one that will bring them in. I'm glad B&B did that. Clearly though, it wasn't enough.

I wonder how many viewers Jack's departure really lost, how many people were watching the show solely for Jack/RDA's presence and who didn't watch after Season Eight because they knew he wouldn't be there and how many viewers gave the show and the new characters a chance in the beginning of Season Nine but found that they didn't like the changes.

I've spoken to several people who used to watch the show but do so no longer and none of them said that they're not watching because Jack left, their reason was that they didn't like "that new guy".

Ratings-wise, the first ten episodes of Season Nine scored an average of 1.96, less than a tenth of a ratings point behind Season Eight's average. The second half averaged 1.73 ratings points per episode and Season Ten, so far, has an average ratings score of 1.51. That would suggest to me that a lot of people gave Season Nine a chance in the beginning, but that it, in some cases, it didn't hold their interest.

However, even if all of those who stopped watching stopped because they no longer liked the show, I don't think that all of the blame can be laid and Mitchell and Vala's door. For one thing, they are not the only major change to the show - it's possible that the Ori storyline has lost viewers, or that some people have taken a dislike to Landry.