The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Nolamom]

i didn't see mitchell and vala as a threat from the start, because i assmumed they'd be included in the cast of characters without ripping an arm off sam and giving it to mitchell, and ripping a leg off teal'c and giving it to vala. they emasculated sam the worst and gave her 'parts' to the new characters to fill them out. just my opinion.

of course, i now know you won't be able to read this, so other debaters can reply to this for themselves.




sally

For me that was the biggest problem - sidelining established characters to make new characters look better. The writers really messed up big time on this one. They could have integrated Cam and Vala into the group without destroying others in the process, but chose the ramrod approach instead. JMO

[Nolamom]

if vala is such a ratings draw, then how come the ratings fell (and stayed down) when she became a full-time cast member? if one watched the season 9 finale, one would know vala would be back.

we can all come up with as many 'ideas' on why the ratings went up or down, but the real fact is that something is wrong with this show to have the ratings be where they are. what that 'something' is is up to the individual.





sally

Could it be poor characterization thanks to the writers? hmmmm?

[ReganX]

I have a question to everybody here... do you ocassionally read magazines interviews with actors about their characters? And who of you have read at least one or two interviews with Claudia about Vala? Her thoughts about the character are really helpful in better understanding the character.

To be honest, I don't think that one should need to read magazine interviews to be able to understand the character. It should come across onscreen.

I haven't given up hope where Vala is concerned, however. I think that the character had potential in "Prometheus Unbound" and that, if the sex jokes are reduced to a minimum, I could learn to like her. The

Spoiler:

Adria storyline

could do a lot for the character. I want to give her a chance for Season Ten.

[ReganX]

SciFi's guilt is bigger. And the older fanbase is being alienated because they want it. From the start they've seen the new characters as the threat for their favourites and as the worst enemies. Quite small amount of the old fanbase was really open and declared that they really enjoy the new kids.

It's not just members of the older fanbase who don't like the new characters - I've been watching the show just about a year, and I hate Mitchell and dislike Landry.

But we're talking here about the online community, which is a very small percent of the whole audience.

If the ratings were the same or higher for Seasons Nine and Ten as they were in Season Eight, I would agree but the show has gone from an average of 2.065 for Season Eight, to 1.96 for the first half of Season Nine, 1.73 for the second half and, so far, 1.51 for Season Ten - and that includes the boost for "200".

That's a pretty steep loss and, while different people probably have different reasons for not watching, it's very possible that some of those who stopped watching stopped because they disliked the changes made to the show, including but not limited to the new characters.

[Danner]

... It's interesting that in a behind the scenes programme for a show in season 8 RDA mentions that the promotion to General for the character was to allow him to work less, but that he was surprised at how much he was in the scripts. I think his ideal would have had Jack move into a General Hammond type role, while the rest of the characters go have adventures. This would have allowed the show to benefit from marqueing his name without him working so much.
For some reason the writers couldn't get a handle on this idea. If they did, I have a feeling season 9/10 may still have contained RDA.

I didn't know this. It's a shame that once again the PTB couldn't see anything beyond their own wants. I don't quite know how it all works, whether RDA signed a one or two year contract based on the belief that he would have had a much more limited role than what he ended up with, and if this is the case then as much as I hated the "I don't really care anymore" attitude that came across the screen to me, I do understand that maybe he could have been so damned fed-up with them that he really did hit rock bottom in the caring stakes. Such a shame, I really enjoyed Jack and would have loved him to go out on a high note.

Whether it would have gone on past season 10 I don't know, but it would have given them an opportunity to seed in new characters gently in time for when (and if) RDA throws it all in.

Yeah, there's definitely a good chance that had RDA still had a role in production, then Cameron and Vala would not have come across as abrasive as they sometimes did. I still don't know if it would have made any difference for me personally (as I really didn't like the whole Ori, Merlin stuff) but it might have worked out well for others.

[Skydiver]

I think everyone is missing one thing here...

Costs HAVE gone up!

<snip>

I doubt Ben and Claudia really had much to do with swaying the decision either way.

very true. however, if costs are going up (and have gone up) and your budget is tight, why ADD three new actors? Why the emphasis on ships which necessitate costly sfx? why the emphasis on stunt casting - those nice expensive 'named' actors which surely come at a much higher cost than john average actor??

[AGateFan]

very true. however, if costs are going up (and have gone up) and your budget is tight, why ADD three new actors? Why the emphasis on ships which necessitate costly sfx? why the emphasis on stunt casting - those nice expensive 'named' actors which surely come at a much higher cost than john average actor??

Yeah, going through the gate to Vancouver looking planets has got to be cheaper then flying around, beaming around in space .... to Vancouver looking planets.

[Danner]

... THEN--THEN--we see full butt nudity on Sha're and her breasts. Naked breasts! For a long time! Long enough for my sister in law to say "why are you letting your daughter watch naked people!" and to further remark that it must have been cold in the room. Then, to make it worse, Sha're's essentially raped by a gou'ald leaving Apophis' body and entering hers as she screams.

Worse on my version, we got full frontal nudity, and yeah, this was so not something I really needed to see, in fact I fast forward this scene now in re-watches. I found it totally unnecessary. Everything leading up to this moment, not to mention the actual taking of Sha're as a host is horror-filled enough without the need for anything else.

... Oh, then we got O'Neill in "Brief Candle" getting laid. There were plenty of scantily clad women prancing around there, and none of them terribly bright. We just finished that set of Netflix and rounding the corner will be "Hathor", which I've seen and will see again because it's cheesily delicious. Rape, body fluids, a woman using her wiles to get what she wants, namely a baby daddy for her little worms...

Vala hasn't even gotten to first base with Daniel, for all her talk and leather.

Whilst I personally have no problems with some of the Daniel/Vala scenes, I found some amusing, but there's also such a thing as overplaying a card, and sometimes I just felt offended for Daniel. particularly that "leering at Mitchell" scene in "Crusade" with the whole 'bodyswap' thing.

The thing is that the scenes you mentioned re: "Brief Candle" and in particular "Hathor" - these scenes were quite serious. The repercussions to both characters were very dramatic. In "Brief Candle" - Jack learns the hard way that you really shouldn't 'take candy from strangers' no matter how in control you normally are, or how innocent the other party seems.

In "Hathor" Daniel is actually raped. Now I have issues with this episode, because nothing in this very serious matter was really addressed, not even Doctor Fraiser reacted to how I would have expected a doctor to react upon seeing the obvious evidence of this fact, I honestly believe that had Sam been found in the same dazed condition in a room which showed obvious signs of a struggle and a very rumpled bed, then her reaction would have been more in keeping with what it should have been, but all that aside, the fact is that this episode highlighted the very dangerous, very powerful, all-controlling and lack of common compassion aspects of the Goa'uld... the enemy in fact is someone to be greatly feared, particularly as this one took them on and almost beat them in their supposed sanctuary, on their home turf. It would have been a startling wake-up call for them as they must have assumed that they were completely on the ball re: home security.

The silliness of the Daniel/Vala stuff borders on everyday earth type delinquency and does not really equate to anything of value in the actual storyline, now if Vala was in fact the enemy, then maybe this type of behaviour would have some merit, but as is, as a regular character trait, it came across sometimes as more than a little trite. This would have been very off-putting for fans who have regularly tuned in over the years to watch a Sci-fi drama/action/adventure and not a Sci-fi comedy.

[Skydiver]

with the shau'ri nudity, i personally found the possession of kettering to be far more terrifying without all the T&A. it was useless, imho. i found the implied nudity to be just as frightening and far 'better' because i, as a viewer, wasn't so distracted by the 'front and back bits' and could feel the terror of the woman

the shau'ri nude scene is obviously the first thing cut out of the episode when it's cut down to 2 parts for syndie airing. the jack/daniel beer chat is the other. while the j/d beer chat is missed, the nudity isn't missed at all. it's extranous and easily cut out without altering the end of the scene at all

[RealmOfX]

You know it's interesting that it's obviously part of American audience that have these problems. I've been reading recently Australian thread, they're watching season 9 Down Under right now and they REALLY enjoy it. Smart audience

You know a very small number of Australians post in that thread don't you?? Probably if you didn't have everyone that disagreed with you on ignore you would notice that a lot of Australians actually hate the new direction Stargate took. (Maybe someone who isn't on that extensive ignore list could quote this for me )

Unfortunately this world will always have small minded individuals who like to make blanket statements based on race/country or even whether or not someone LUVS unconditionally whatever their fave actress does regardless of the role Personally I think you should be apologising to Americans and Australians for your back handed snipes at them.

Well this CB fan (who is an Australian as well) thinks that Vala has no place on SG-1 the character simply has no logical reason for being there - neither has the PTB provided a reasonable one for her being there either. As for Lt Colonel Greenie - don't even get me started!! TPTB had a great opportunity to continue Stargate for a long time by adding new people and they botched it!

Did Vala/Cam kill stargate??
YES,
but these two caricatures are only one of many symptoms of the underlying problem.

Stargate: SG-1 used to be rather unique in that it was "the little show that could", it had a very wide fanbase. Since the advent of RCC as showrunner the unique things about Stargate have been gradually disappearing (it is now a poorly done retread of scifi cliches). Murmurs of discontent have been growing since he put his hands on the reins. The fanbase has been narrowed down, large sections have been tossed to the side and they stopped watching.

Is it a coincidence that the year RCC gets sole control of the reins with no EP's left to willingly naysay him that the show undergoes a drastic change into something it never was? Is it a coincidence that the ratings go into a downward spiral to cancellation?

For every person that loves the "new direction", I can find you another one that hates it and another two that have diminished enjoyment of it. People have been raving for months about ratings and advertising and Sciffy and recently cancellation of the show and all tend to overlook the big pink elephant in the middle of the room.

RCC changed Stargate,
the ratings went down,
the show got cancelled.

[Danner]

I agree; I don't think RDA would ever look back at those last 2 years and say there were some of his better acting and I think he'd have no problem admitting that. The circumstances were that at the beginning of S7, his dad died; RDA had been spending time with him the few months before he died; he was still going back and forth between LA and Vancouver every weekend. He was the thinnest I've ever seen him and didn't look all that healthy to me. I have no doubt that he didn't really want to be there as much as he was, but at that point, it was still no RDA, no show.

Yeah, I kinda get that now after reading smurf's post. I am very sorry to hear about his father, I didn't know that.

... It's been said before and I'll say it again...if he had quit when he wanted to, if he had just thought about himself, there would have been no more Stargate and most of us would not be theorizing as to what killed Stargate, although I'm sure some people would still have some interesting theories.

Possibly. I certainly won't argue this point as I'm not sure if RDA leaving in season seven or eight would have felled the show, it's very possible that you are right in your belief, but it's equally possible that you are not. There are some who believe that the show managed quite nicely without Daniel, however; I (and others) don't see it that way at all, There are some writers who are not overly enamoured with the character, I am of the opinion that Cooper definitely wanted him gone, yet they brought him back in season seven, something I do not believe they would have done had they felt the show would continue nicely without him. Now whether this is a fact or not is open to interpretation, just as is the belief that the show would have folded without Jack.

What I do believe is that it would have been better for Jack to have departed the scene still with some semblance of himself, rather than the somewhat jaded character he left us as. The loss of the sense of team spirit in season 7 and 8 is something that left many fans somewhat bereft, and it's possible that as a result the expectation of the character of Cameron Mitchell was higher than it normally would have been, I know that quite a few fans were hoping for a return of the 'team feel' and the resultant disappointment when this did not occur might have ultimately contributed to the mass drop in viewers... well this, and the really crappy writing.

[smurf]

Possibly. I certainly won't argue this point as I'm not sure if RDA leaving in season seven or eight would have felled the show, it's very possible that you are right in your belief, but it's equally possible that you are not. There are some who believe that the show managed quite nicely without Daniel, however; I (and others) don't see it that way at all, There are some writers who are not overly enamoured with the character, I am of the opinion that Cooper definitely wanted him gone, yet they brought him back in season seven, something I do not believe they would have done had they felt the show would continue nicely without him. Now whether this is a fact or not is open to interpretation, just as is the belief that the show would have folded without Jack.

Just to check I'm reading this right. You are saying that RCC wanted Daniel gone?
If so, weirdly I see the opposite. It's always seemed to me that Daniel's biggest supporter was RCC - I think he stated, even during season 6, that Daniel was his favourite character to write. I do consider part of the reason there's a stop on inviting CN back for a guest spot is because he's in control. And after seeing Colonel Cam in action, and hearing how much the character is exactly how RCC wanted him, I'm inclined to believe he might have had issues with CN's choice to not act the overexcitable wunderkind that Jonas seemed destined to be.

[Crow T. Robot]

In "Hathor" Daniel is actually raped.

So was Jack.

You slip an unsuspecting woman a mickey and then take her to bed. That’s the classic definition of a date rape. Applying the same standards that’s exactly what happened to Jack. It’s the same thing Hathor did to Daniel. Jack just had the alien STD to deal with as a result.

[Skydiver]

the one thing i will admire about rda, and folks' mileage may vary on this...he wanted to cut back in s6. but skiffy would not reup the show without him. Literally they would not reup the show until he said 'yep, i'll come play'

so, for three years, when he had a lot of stuff going on in his personal life, his father, his daughter, he found a way to make a compromise, a way to be apart of the show while still having time for his family (an attitude that i support. shows come and go, family is forever)

did he do it for the money? i doubt it. given his long career i dont' imagine that he's living from paycheck to paycheck. He doesn't seem to do it for the fame. in fact, he seems to shy away from most of that fame stuff. IMHO, he did it because he knew that the whole cast and crew would be out of work if he said no.

He found a balance and a compromise that allowed him to have the time he needed while maintaining a commitment to the show to keep a few hundred other folks in work (YMMV may vary on how 'good' his commitment was, that's up to you)

but, imho, if it wasn't for him finding a compromise, the show woulda died 5 years ago and there would be no franchise, no atlantis, no cam, no vala, no nothing. stargate would be nothing more than a footnote in a few books

[Skydiver]

Just to check I'm reading this right. You are saying that RCC wanted Daniel gone?
If so, weirdly I see the opposite. It's always seemed to me that Daniel's biggest supporter was RCC - I think he stated, even during season 6, that Daniel was his favourite character to write. I do consider part of the reason there's a stop on inviting CN back for a guest spot is because he's in control. And after seeing Colonel Cam in action, and hearing how much the character is exactly how RCC wanted him, I'm inclined to believe he might have had issues with CN's choice to not act the overexcitable wunderkind that Jonas seemed destined to be.

i've never had that impression. I've always had the impression that RCC is daneil's biggest fan.

rcc seems to have a 'soft spot' for male characters and daniel is no exception.