The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[jeb]

duuuude....



He was a caricature, wasn't he? Don't make me go back and read it.

dude, that's don juan. in tartuffe it's le pauvre homme... le pauvre homme...

Yes, Moliere is famous for his theatrical farces, based on caricatures bashing various branches of society. I strongly agree with Deejay435, Danner and Crow T. Robot, i might add about writing issues:

1/ Replacing a well routed leader with a rookie who acts like the cool dude but is in fact is a psycho with a profund will to die was nonsense. Giving him the easy jokes was also a bad move. Now i can uderstand the PTB had concerns about lacking RDA's humour and the fact that usually flawed characters are the most interesting to follow, the idea was poorly executed . You do not give the lead to a suicidal 30 years old major.

2/Adding Vala to the team prior her girl become Orici didn't make any sense and seemed too obviously forced. See above statement about higly flawed characters, nobody expected someone who was taken as host for years to become that sexually obsessed nympho after being saved (although, this is an arguable point, maybe too much thought provocative for SG1 tho)

3/None of the team reacted to Mitchell being leader, which is unrealistic.
That would only have worked if the character Sam had stayed at area 51 or turned general, but in this instance, it doesn't. adding two inconsistantly written character to a team of very normal bunnies created a huge dichotomy in the team.

4/The Ori, despite adding a certain philosophical depth to the show, ended up being the most abnoxious evil bad guys ever, only delivering only seldom plagues and beetles. they're almost Dragonballzedesques. Arc Episodes (most of the eps nowadays) seem simply wrote in order to advance the main plot from A to B (same can be said about character interaction). it's often so predictable it's laughable. People who like basic sci fi episodes, standalone episodes offer more freedom for the writers to create a story. In addition, they've swapped shooting locations from gorgeous temples to dark. muddy, 12th centry villages which aren't appealing. The whole medieval fantasy storyline is downward insulting and make SG1 looks like a lords of the ring Rip-off, without the quality of writing.

Also, painting enlightened people like evil conquerors seems wrong. Bashing catholic religion is also a turn off for a percentage of the American audience, at least subconsciously. Why Ori even bother after all ? the whole 'Ascend, descend, transcend' storyline is at most annoying, even silly for buddhists or gnostics. Ori are all knowledgeable but don't know about our galaxy and need to convert us ? Allrighty, let's fight (but before let's have Dr Jackson say something remotely clever).


5/Add to this the less and less often used Stargates and more and more often seen spaceships, people feel like watching a new show.

6/Why is teal'c even in the team ? shouldn't he be working with helping his fellow people now that goaul'd are overthrown ? I know about the 2 lines in the script explaining this point, but i fail to believe them.

7/The relation between landry and lam was out of place and poorly executed.

8/All the inconsistences about each members of the team acting out of character for the sake of the storyline made much more people aware about the fact that it's written like a sitcom (and the lack of death for recurring characters is another point that makes the SG1 crew invincible, to a point that you do not care because you simply know the episode will end nicely).


Writing issues were already present a long time ago, but became much more apparent once fundations people were used to watch were attacked. However, this explain how much viewers they lost from the beginning to the end of season 9.
But, in addition this year, they lost BSG, have a poor lead-in and are facing monk, a much funnier and clever show - with flawed characters. And since NBC wanted to axe the show it was for them like finding an oasis in the middle of the desert. I do enjoy the show, but i take it for what it is, entertainment.

About season 8 having strong ratings, the rating system was different and people believed it was the last one they had to suffer.

EDIT: yo dawg, SG1Fan10023, keep it real. But where is your post about sarcasm gone ? i wanted to quote that...

[scarimor]

dude, that's don juan...

oh I'm sorry, I haven't read don juan. I wasn't quoting.

[racks memory - but I have read "The Education of Don Juan", which is another piece entirely ]

edit: look, I made a new sig in honour of THIS THREAD! *bows down*

[Zoser]

The bold highlights what many of us have been saying. It's the writing that ultimately let the show down. I think the big confusion at the moment is that many Cameron/Vala fans think that we are saying that them being in the show is what killed it, that's not so, what we are saying is that the writing was substandard and the characters came across badly. However; we have also pointed out that the writing has been terrible across the board, this includes the stuff written for Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. I think though, that Cameron/Vala was the final straw for alot of fans who were already getting fed up with the way the show/characters were being presented to us.

I'll say it again, the writers were majorly at fault here, amongst other things, but yeah, definitely the writers, definitely Mullie & Mallozzi, definitely Wright and yeah, definitely Cooper.

I agree with your statement about RDA by the way. I love Jack, but by the time RDA wanted to leave I was more than ready to say goodbye to him, I had not been happy with his performance for some time by then, it came across as lacklustre as the writing did, and that's a shame because he used to be so good.

I'll start by admitting Jack O'Neill is my favorite and yes I, too, wondered about season 8. Could he have been playing an angry (hates the job), and frustrated man (lack of action on personal and professional fronts), who needs to withdraw from team to be seen as an even handed boss to the whole base.
Beside that some of season 8's stories were just awful.

[esoap524]

oh I'm sorry, I haven't read don juan. I wasn't quoting.

[racks memory - but I have read "The Education of Don Juan", which is another piece entirely ]

edit: look, I made a new sig in honour of THIS THREAD! *bows down*

I think I love you ... or at minimum, I love your banner (and your fic )

jeb--ugh! you got me! That was one long post, too long for me to read, in fact, or understand, given my limited SG1 knowledge.

Not to mention, the fact that I never finished reading Don Quixote.

I think it's time for me to admit my failings and come out of the closet, so to speak: I tried to watch the marathon last night and ...zzzzz...yep, I wasn't enthralled. I guess this show never was for me. I tried! Really. I went back and watched some season 1. I watched some season 8. I watched some of last night. And it's not because I didn't "understand" the plot. It really came down to it's just not my cup of tea. I wasn't glued to the set, waiting and barely breathing for the next episode. That HAS happened to me before with more than a few shows. This, apparently, isn't one of them.

Yes, I'm a Farscape fan and, worse yet, a Black/Browder fan who will watch them NO MATTER WHAT! Ergo...Sg1 has become part of my Friday night. Will I miss it when it's gone? No, not likely. Will I miss them? Most certainly.

Don't get me wrong: I like Teal'c, Carter and Daniel. I like the actors quite a bit. I just can't get motivated into caring too much, though, especially without Black and Browder around.

I hope all involved find gainful employment because unemployment sucks.

Do I think Vala and Cam killed SG1? Well, considering I didn't like the show prior to their arrival, my answer is still no.

Hate me if you want. I can take it.

[Mandysg1]

I think I love you ... or at minimum, I love your banner (and your fic )

jeb--ugh! you got me! That was one long post, too long for me to read, in fact, or understand, given my limited SG1 knowledge.

Not to mention, the fact that I never finished reading Don Quixote.

I think it's time for me to admit my failings and come out of the closet, so to speak: I tried to watch the marathon last night and ...zzzzz...yep, I wasn't enthralled. I guess this show never was for me. I tried! Really. I went back and watched some season 1. I watched some season 8. I watched some of last night. And it's not because I didn't "understand" the plot. It really came down to it's just not my cup of tea. I wasn't glued to the set, waiting and barely breathing for the next episode. That HAS happened to me before with more than a few shows. This, apparently, isn't one of them.

Yes, I'm a Farscape fan and, worse yet, a Black/Browder fan who will watch them NO MATTER WHAT! Ergo...Sg1 has become part of my Friday night. Will I miss it when it's gone? No, not likely. Will I miss them? Most certainly.

Don't get me wrong: I like Teal'c, Carter and Daniel. I like the actors quite a bit. I just can't get motivated into caring too much, though, especially without Black and Browder around.

I hope all involved find gainful employment because unemployment sucks.

Do I think Vala and Cam killed SG1? Well, considering I didn't like the show prior to their arrival, my answer is still no.

Hate me if you want. I can take it.

esoap524 I could never hate someone for their tastes being different than mine. It goes to show what a diverse fandom SG1 has I can and do respect you and others for your opinions

As for Cam/Vala killing SG1, as mentioned many times before, I also was willing to give the new characters a chance and was in fact looking forward to see what they brought to the show, unfortunately I didn't like how they were brought in and portrayed, so I think that it may have been a contributing factor to the cancellation, but then that's just my opinion

[Farscapefan]

I think I love you ... or at minimum, I love your banner (and your fic )

jeb--ugh! you got me! That was one long post, too long for me to read, in fact, or understand, given my limited SG1 knowledge.

Not to mention, the fact that I never finished reading Don Quixote.

I think it's time for me to admit my failings and come out of the closet, so to speak: I tried to watch the marathon last night and ...zzzzz...yep, I wasn't enthralled. I guess this show never was for me. I tried! Really. I went back and watched some season 1. I watched some season 8. I watched some of last night. And it's not because I didn't "understand" the plot. It really came down to it's just not my cup of tea. I wasn't glued to the set, waiting and barely breathing for the next episode. That HAS happened to me before with more than a few shows. This, apparently, isn't one of them.

Yes, I'm a Farscape fan and, worse yet, a Black/Browder fan who will watch them NO MATTER WHAT! Ergo...Sg1 has become part of my Friday night. Will I miss it when it's gone? No, not likely. Will I miss them? Most certainly.

Don't get me wrong: I like Teal'c, Carter and Daniel. I like the actors quite a bit. I just can't get motivated into caring too much, though, especially without Black and Browder around.

I hope all involved find gainful employment because unemployment sucks.

Do I think Vala and Cam killed SG1? Well, considering I didn't like the show prior to their arrival, my answer is still no.

Hate me if you want. I can take it.

The same here

[AGateFan]

Really feeds into my misconception that the people who like the changes in S9-S10 never really liked the show to begin with. I loved Stargate SG-1. I didnt need them to change it to make me love it.

I would run out the true fan crp but I know its not true. I know there are people that liked the real sg-1 and like the new show too. I just find it hard to believe that people who really, honestly loved the old show and the old characters are not a little dissappointed by this new show. But my belief is not required.

Did the characters of Cam and Vala kill stargate. IMHO yes. They are prime examples of the poor turn the show took. But they are not the only thing that ruined it. Lam didnt help, Ori didnt help, space babies never help and ofcourse the crpy non-stargate like plots, characters and general non-stargate feel of the new show definitly didnt help.

[Madeleine]

{I like Stargate now, watch it cos I followed B&B from Farscape, and haven't managed to like what i've tried to watch of the earlier seasons}.

'scuse the above, and please feel free to correct me if I've misrepresented you.

I think you're in a very small minority. I know of a lot of people who started watching with s6 cos of the move to SciFi, although few of those had strong opinions about whether the show was better or worse when they went back and watched what came before.

But I know of very few people who started watching in s9, and all bar none of those are Scapers. That's a smallish set anyway - Scapers and Gaters having a largeish overlap what with them both being SF, so a lot of scapers *couldn't* start watching the show cos they were already at it. I know no one who started watching in s8. I know one or two who picked up on the Daniel Return stuff and tuned into s7 to see what the fuss was. But barring B&B, there's been nothing to induce new viewers to tune in.

Any change, no matter what, will lose a show some viewers.

It's hard to find one that will bring them in. I'm glad B&B did that. Clearly though, it wasn't enough.

I'm glad you enjoy the current show esoap524 although i'm sorry you don't share my love of the previous (it doesn't *bother* me, but it does make a little bit of a feeling that there isn't a word for but is the same as how i feel that Mr W doesn't like strawberries or raspberries (they're lovely! I want to be able to pick a bowl of them for him just like I do for the rest of the family, cos they make the rest of us happy) but that's MY issue, not yours so forgive the meander ). I wish there had been more like you so that the ratings were higher. But there aren't, and *that's* no one's fault. Just one of those things.

Although... which past seasons have you tried? Would you consider trying again? (Like if someone had tried watching Farscape and you found out they wetted their feet with the rather humdrum (so humdrum I forget their names) 4.1 and 4.2 you might suggest another way in...?)

[esoap524]

esoap524 I could never hate someone for their tastes being different than mine. It goes to show what a diverse fandom SG1 has I can and do respect you and others for your opinions

As for Cam/Vala killing SG1, as mentioned many times before, I also was willing to give the new characters a chance and was in fact looking forward to see what they brought to the show, unfortunately I didn't like how they were brought in and portrayed, so I think that it may have been a contributing factor to the cancellation, but then that's just my opinion

Well, thank you

I do feel badly for those who love the show (of course, the people who work for it, even more so). I know what it's like to have your beloved show wrested from your eager little hands, left on the precipice..

....oh, sorry, still haven't gotten over that FS cancel thing...

It seems to me, though, that the writing's on the wall anytime you A--lose your leading man or, a lead in general, and B--you've been on the air for 10 years.

For some reason, I keep thinking of "Cheers" so, in a way, I can relate to folks' concerns about the new characters. The show changed when Coach died and they brought in Woody but, still, they had Diane and Frasier everything was still popping along. They got Sam and Diane together (iffy). Then Shelley Long left. Even though Diane was obnoxious (loved her, though), the show needed her. Kirstie Alley was great as Rebecca at first, but the other characters just spiraled into caricature so that by the end, Sam Malone was nothing more than a lecherous old man with frat boy tendencies and Rebecca was little more than a neurotic.

I wouldn't blame that on Kirstie Alley or the Rebecca character. My thought is that the writers were running out of things to say about Sam and Woody and Carla and Cliffie and Norm, therefore, they were rehashing the same old tale and denigrating the characters in the process. And this was still a decent show that was an Emmy winner and still considered to be a quality comedy.

I think it's overall very difficult to keep life going in a long running show. Bringing in new actors/characters is more a stop-gap than a solution. Cheers and The Xfiles are excellent of examples of two high quality shows that really suffered due to their own longetivity. Xfiles had had it even when Duchovny was still part of the show, right around season 7. I didn't "blame" Robert Patrick or Annabelle Gish or their characters. I actually liked both quite a bit. The show was just getting old by the time they stepped in, another stop-gap to try to get the last gasp out of a show that was already past its glory days.

Incidentally, I did watch it till its very last, dying breath --and hated that ending with a passion, even the sweet Scully/Mulder part at the end.

[Madeleine]

Really feeds into my misconception that the people who like the changes in S9-S10 never really liked the show to begin with. I loved Stargate SG-1. I didnt need them to change it to make me love it.

I loved it. And I loved it before.

I'd have once thought the same as you; I did until s7. Then I found that the whole thing was too much like s4 for me. I liked s4. But I liked it to come after s3 and before s5, not after s6. The paradigm that had worked pretty well for the early years seemed stale and routine when they tried to resurrect it. S8 was pretty different. I liked those changes.

I'll admit that the changes in s9 were much greater in scale than any that had gone before, but since previous changes had been largely (though not wholly) pleasing to me, I had a positive attitude to them. That positive attitude has been the cause of greater disappointment at times (B5 season5 springs to mind), but I was lucky in s9 - I liked it. Not totally, but then i seldom do like stuff totally.

Is your disbelief heightened because the show is so different to what it was? Consider: there are people who like MASH *and* 24 *and* BSG *and* Malcom in the Middle, and *they're* all really different from each other. Stargate s9 is closer to Stargate s4 than ER is to BlackAdder, and you wouldn't disbelieve that I liked both, would you?

I just find it hard to believe that people who really, honestly loved the old show and the old characters are not a little dissappointed by this new show. But my belief is not required.

I hope not! If it were, I'd cease to exist and then who would mow the lawn and wrap all my e-bay packages???

I think therefore I am.
I think therefore I am.
I think therefore I am.
...

[jeb]

I've always enjoyed the show, ast least till season 6 when i stopped watching regularly, tho I cannot really say i've ever cared about any of the characters, which is actually too bad because i really like the actors.

but the predictability never did cut it for me. The fact that Jaffa are either from black or hispanic origins offended me. The fact that when one person is added to the team at the beginning of an episode he often dies before the end of the episode made me laugh often tho.

Some standalone episodes were great at least very entertaining and some extremely funny, i enjoyed my time going thu the DVDs last year, but it is disposable, which is a shame, as i'm really gonna miss the cast.

ETA, the analogy with X files was really good.

[esoap524]

'scuse the above, and please feel free to correct me if I've misrepresented you.

I think you're in a very small minority. I know of a lot of people who started watching with s6 cos of the move to SciFi, although few of those had strong opinions about whether the show was better or worse when they went back and watched what came before.

But I know of very few people who started watching in s9, and all bar none of those are Scapers. That's a smallish set anyway - Scapers and Gaters having a largeish overlap what with them both being SF, so a lot of scapers *couldn't* start watching the show cos they were already at it. I know no one who started watching in s8. I know one or two who picked up on the Daniel Return stuff and tuned into s7 to see what the fuss was. But barring B&B, there's been nothing to induce new viewers to tune in.

Any change, no matter what, will lose a show some viewers.

It's hard to find one that will bring them in. I'm glad B&B did that. Clearly though, it wasn't enough.

I'm glad you enjoy the current show esoap524 although i'm sorry you don't share my love of the previous (it doesn't *bother* me, but it does make a little bit of a feeling that there isn't a word for but is the same as how i feel that Mr W doesn't like strawberries or raspberries (they're lovely! I want to be able to pick a bowl of them for him just like I do for the rest of the family, cos they make the rest of us happy) but that's MY issue, not yours so forgive the meander ). I wish there had been more like you so that the ratings were higher. But there aren't, and *that's* no one's fault. Just one of those things.

Although... which past seasons have you tried? Would you consider trying again? (Like if someone had tried watching Farscape and you found out they wetted their feet with the rather humdrum (so humdrum I forget their names) 4.1 and 4.2 you might suggest another way in...?)

LOL--Madeleine, I think that's a fair representation . And, believe me, I know what it's like to have people "dis" (my word, not an impression from your post) your favorite show, or, at least, not join in your unbridled enthusiasm for its brilliance. I've seen it a lot on these boards regarding Farscape and there've been many times I've clamped my sarcasm in the interest of respect for others' tastes and not wanting to be yet another obnoxious Farscape fan girl (only a semi-obnoxious one).

And I am one of those, along with my pals, who tried to watch in season 6. Heck, it was on before Farscape. We were already in front of the TV. It just didn't catch on for us.

Yes, I am likely a small group. I have good friends whom I "converted" to Farscape; converted in that they are not sci fi fans in general. They didn't like Battlestar Galactica or The Xfiles, two of my other favorites. I've tried to "convert" them to SG1. They remain unswayed.

I've watched the first 9 of season 1, the first 4 of season 8 and a smattering of others. I don't hate it; as a matter of fact, there are times when I think, ah, it's Saturday, I've seen every Farscape 15 times and I like Teal'c so I'll watch Sg1. And I sort of half watch. I guess, for me, a show has to kind of reach up and grab me by the gut for me to have a slavish devotion. That usually involves what I perceive to be the strong heroine who's a mess underneath the cool exterior (Scully and Aeryn from Farscape), and good romantic chemistry between the leads.

Carter is a good role model, for certain. I'd want my daughter to be like her, vs like Scully or Aeryn, but it's not as entertaining to watch as it is to watch characters like Aeryn lower their walls and reveal their vulnerable, messy insides, or Scully reveal her doubts, fears, etc. Maybe Carter has done that, or maybe Gillian Anderson and Claudia Black just had that kind of quiet suffering look down to perfection. I don't know. Either way, it suckered me in.

I do think it's extremely difficult for any show to bring in new viewers at the eleventh hour (or 10 h season, as it were). In a sense, I suppose bringing in Browder and Black was sort of "stunt casting". They were going to bring an audience that was already comfortable with the genre, and they're both capable actors. Unfortunately, the viewership drain had already started and was likely spurred on by those long timers who couldn't stomach the way the newbies took over.

I can't think of one show, off the top of my head, that showed improved ratings over that period of time. 24 has done a relatively good job but it keeps its story arcs one year at a time and you definitely can't jump in mid season. "Lost" and "Desperate Housewives" saw ratings fall in season 2, if my memory is correct.

All this to say TV is a tough business and the public is fickle at best. 10 years for a genre show is a good long time and to be commended. After all, no other show can boast that.

[AGateFan]

snip
Is your disbelief heightened because the show is so different to what it was? Consider: there are people who like MASH *and* 24 *and* BSG *and* Malcom in the Middle, and *they're* all really different from each other. Stargate s9 is closer to Stargate s4 than ER is to BlackAdder, and you wouldn't disbelieve that I liked both, would you?
snip

Hmmm, I would have to say yes. But keep in mind I like shows that are different. I liked farscape, I like B5 and I like Stargate SG-1. They are all different.

What I dont like is when SG-1 is no longer SG-1 but more like another show. Just like I probably wouldnt have liked it if they suddenly made farscape a different show or B5.

Farscapes S4 was worse then the rest of the show but was basically along the same lines and may have recovered a bit at the end since it was basically true to itself even when it went over the edge to me. B5 season 5 started out worse then the rest of the show but recovered in the end once they got rid of the bad plot and the bad character Byron and again went back to what made it a great show. It finished on quite the high note as we were treated to the fate of the characters we invested so much time in. SG-1 has not been true to its past and that is its failing.

[DEM]

I think it's time for me to admit my failings and come out of the closet, so to speak: I tried to watch the marathon last night and ...zzzzz...yep, I wasn't enthralled. I guess this show never was for me. I tried! Really. I went back and watched some season 1. I watched some season 8.

You'll get no hate here, but I think your experience should indicate how vastly 'new fan' vs' 'old fan' different perspectives are.

Now, to be fair, of those 8 episodes that comprised the marathon, I voted for only 1 of them (2010). I have iss-ewes with The Fifth Race and WoO, and I find the elevation of 1969 a bit puzzling because it seems an awful lot like cotton candy. These things, I suppose, just go to show how weird I am, I guess. Anyway, my votes consisted of only 1 post-S6 episode (Avatar) because, IMO, S7 marked a very noticable turning point (*cough*newshowrunner*cough*) and dowturn in quality. Er, I guess my point is that I can empathise with not being enthralled with that particular selection of episodes.

Say, out of curiosity, did you watch Lost City? I'm wondering whether watching that gives 'new fans' a greater appreciation of the problems many have with the retconning of Mitchell's significance in the battle over Antarctica.


P.S.

Incidentally, I did watch it till its very last, dying breath --and hated that ending with a passion, even the sweet Scully/Mulder part at the end.

[M.G.S]

As for Vala and Cam killing Stargate? If anything killed Stargate it was poor writing and Sci-Fi's lack of interest in anything other than a shiny new title. We can't blame the actors for any of that, they were simply doing the job they were paid to do.

I agree. The writing is what killed stargate but I have to personally say that it is getting better again. I think the writers were just having a rough time manageing two shows but they finally have got the hang og it.