The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Skydiver]

i don't think that ben has anything but respect for hte legacy he inherited. i think he respects teh show and its past.

but i do think that he's just like claudia, amanda and chris....victims of coop's vision. and it's a job. and when you do a job, you have to do what your boss tells you to do. whether you agree with it or not

[Jackie]

I think Bowder was very excited about being cast on SG-1. He had lots of enthusiasm when ever he is behind the scenes.

I don't think the old saying about Bowder having "big shoes' to fill really explians what has happened.

Bowder--in his own right--is an accomplished and respected actor.

I think it's Cooper and the boys that couldn't fill the shoes. The stroy arc and writing suffered. Not even Bowder and his good looks and charming souther accent could pull the lazy writing out of the fire. Though, Bowder tried his best.

Even RDA's proformance has suffered in the few eps he returned for. I don't think it's a case of RDA not wanting to be there. I think it's a case of bad writing and directing. Bad story arc, ect.

If RDA can't pull the bad lines out of the fire--then how is any actor going to?

What is far more frightening then any enemy that Stargate has come up with is the fact that the same people that lost SG-1's canon, quality and purpose are now running SGA.

I guess it's kind of like "big buisness" if the manager screws up--you promote him to another department so he will be someone else's problem.

[SG1Guy]

Did you ever watch Farscape? Just curious.

Actually high costs, bad company management (not Henson) and the low ratings killed Farscape.

As for SG1...10 years isn't exactly an early grave.

Yes I did watch a lot of Farscape, in fact just the other day I sat through the better part of 4 hours watching The Peacekeeper Wars Parts 1 and 2 thinking all the while "why am I watching this garbage?"

Hockey season is over, football hasn't started I guess I'm just in a TV daze.

SG1 lasted 9 years then along came Vala and Cam and killed it in one. I suspect those low ratings for Farscape were because the show was pretty weak.

If you want to look at it as the glass being half full you could always say Farscape lasted as long as it did only because of Vala and Cam.

[Mark300001]

The writing of Cam and Vala, and just the writing in general destroyed the series.

[ParadoxRealities]

I wonder if some of you are willing to admit you are taking out your frustration that RDA/Jack isn't there on Cam and Vala and not looking at the characters themselves.

...nope. i just don't like 'em.

Can you guys give me examples of how they ignore 8 years of canon please be nice.

well, lets see, i think it started roughly two seconds into avalon. mitchell--the pilot--has never seen the gate. is the leader of SG-1. vala, the thief and attempted murderer, is given more leeway than maybourne teal'c (who risked his life to save them, as opposed to trying to kill an entire crew). so, i guess that about sums up the first ten minutes of the first episode of the first season.

OK first point when they introduced Vala in season 9 she was searched before she came and she did have some thing they were curious about a tablet if memory serves and they didn't capture her she came to them I give you she did do a bad thing but if they wanted some technology they have to investigate it, that is the standing orders of the SGC to seek technology that could defend earth against all threats right that tablet might lead to that.

investigating intelligence doesn't require the relatively immense degree of freedom proffered to her.

She's a former goa'uld host so she could have memories that could help them against the remaining Goa'uld and she did she did tell them not to trust that one that was in BH and she was right she is not pure evil and she did have guards outside her door before she came back in FB.

she's also a con-artist, thief, false-goddess/slave owner, and attempted murder. this does not mean she can't be helpful, because she can be. this does not mean she's inherently purely evil, because she doesn't have to be. it means she's selfish, manipulative, dangerous, and needs to be treated as such. she did what was in her best interest in BH, and door guards hardly make a difference when she's allowed to roam freely anyway.

The Goa'uld was defeated in Reckoning 1 and 2 by the Ancient device along with the replicators. (I did think the battle in TLC was better) They no longer had the Jaffa armies to fight for them the power was taken away from them so of course they are no longer main enemy.

the largest, most domineering dynasty the galaxy has ever seen. that's unimaginable fallout. there are still jaffa out there, not to mention goa'uld and imprisoned people. and the newly freed, what happens to them?

I do believe the reason ToK'ra are not used as much is because they were mainly used against the Goa'uld and the Goa'uld were more about power and prestige so their spying and tactics were useful.

so, ignoring the fact that the goa'uld are still a threat, the tok'ra have navigated the galaxy for 2000 years--second only to the asgard, they're major earth allies who are nearing extinction, they were and are closely tied and effected by the goa'uld and their downfall, and that they're our friends and have been for nine years, it's perfectly logical for them to fall off the face of the proverbial earth. ok.

Cam was in that major battle in TLC we just didn't see him so he was part of the air force and I don't see any black mark or bad behavior on his record not like Jack and Sheppard so why couldn't he be the leader the old team scattered they originally wanted him to be a new leader of a new team the SL wise.

how many other people played significant roles in TLC? and maybe even, ya know, saved the world? how many people have off world command experience? off world experience? off world training? how many people have seen the gate? don't push random unknown buttons for no reason? know better than to go loose canon? listen to people who have been doing this job for a decade? understand that reading mission reports isn't the same a writing them? and mitchell is chosen as CO? of a green team? he could easily get people killed. in fact, the probability of such is overwhelming. his record is a joke. CMoH? he doesn't know what he's doing.

Vala has proven herself and earned trust.

to be a member of SG-1 and go off-base no less. still haven't figured that one out.

Actually high costs, bad company management (not Henson) and the low ratings killed Farscape.

low ratings caused by...? [honest question]

[poundpuppy29]

bumping this thread up because of discussion going on in Anti season 10 thread. I think the discussion is more General so this thread is needed.

[captain jake]

bumping this thread up because of discussion going on in Anti season 10 thread. I think the discussion is more General so this thread is needed.

Didn't really work... I think this topic has been pretty much done to death.

[the fifth man]

A lot has been said, on both sides. By now, you either love them, or hate them.

[poundpuppy29]

Bump this thread because there are some things I need to say. I frequently lurk in the Anti season 10 thread not because I am spying but because I like to see the other side, I have read some interesting comments and some comments make my blood boil one of the comments that makes me angry is that Jack would hate Vala or he would have made sure she was not on the team. Why this bothers me is because we have had no interaction between Jack and Vala so where is there this tension. I do think some are projecting their opinions on Jack "I don't like Vala so Jack doesn't like Vala"

Vala is not NID which Jack doesn't like nor is she in politics like Kinsey was who Jack doesn't like she did not inadvertantly kill a friend of his like Jonas did so why would Jack hate her.

[Crazedwraith]

Cam And Vala? I'd not seen this before. I am amused, Cam and Vala are barely ever in the same scene. There's a quote from Ben Browder about in "The Bad Guys" page.

The actor obviously have chemistry left over from Aeryn/Chrichton but I've not really seen any sparks fly between their Stargate characters.

Edit: Wait, I'm an idiot. This isn't a 'ship thread. :O I'll leave that up for your amusment.

I don't think the characters of Cam and Vala killed the show, old age did. I can't admit to being overly partial to their characters though. Vala especially. They nailed in 200 I thought. "Sexy female Alien" that's what Vala was written as and it just wasn't interesting for me.

Don't get me wrong, I like Claudia Black in tight leather but that's not Stargate and it shouldn't have been Vala's single defining trait. I was actually cheering for Daniel when he delivered that smack down in Unending. Obviously the writers thought he was in the wrong but I couldn't have said why exactly.

Cam, I don't have strong feelings for. They could have actually developed Carter as a leader if they hadn't written him in and his backstory was rather Marty Stuish but in the end they had to have their formulaic main leading man. A Shame but he didn't grate at me like Vala did.

[poundpuppy29]

I think she was more than a Sexy Female Alien what I loved about her was she was colorful not a typical hero so the only Stargate females that are allowed are the military ones or doctors.

[tsiper]

I liked them both!!!!!

[AGateFan]

Bump this thread because there are some things I need to say. I frequently lurk in the Anti season 10 thread not because I am spying but because I like to see the other side, I have read some interesting comments and some comments make my blood boil one of the comments that makes me angry is that Jack would hate Vala or he would have made sure she was not on the team. Why this bothers me is because we have had no interaction between Jack and Vala so where is there this tension. I do think some are projecting their opinions on Jack "I don't like Vala so Jack doesn't like Vala"

Vala is not NID which Jack doesn't like nor is she in politics like Kinsey was who Jack doesn't like she did not inadvertantly kill a friend of his like Jonas did so why would Jack hate her.

Actually the argument comes from Vala being a female Maybourn (except Maybourn was actually concerned with saving earth and not just making money). There is also Jack and the SG-untrained Russian. Jack and the fake SG kid who ignored his orders and Jack and his reactions to Jonas (and probably more that I will be reminded of when I rewatch previous seasons of the show).

In other words there are plenty of valid in show reasons to assume Jack would not put up with someone like Vala being on his team, so don’t be so quick to dismiss someone as "projecting their opinions". Perhaps you are projecting you opinions? Or perhaps we both have different and valid opinions.

Vala is not NID but she is a thief and a slaver who left Hammond and the rest of the crew of the Prometheus to die. She is not a politician but she is a proud thief and a liar who is supposedly a slick talker and will say anything to get her way and make money (which is really the same thing). She took Daniel hostage TWICE with the second time nearly leading to his death and she did it for money. Jonas did not cause Daniels death, Jack never said he did. Jack was mad because Jonas was not HONEST and did not report the death as it happened. I don't recall Vala being known for her Honesty. So we know Jack does not like liars and does not like thieves (those who stole technology from his allies) so it’s not a stretch to say jack would probably not want a thief and a liar on his team.

[amconway]

Nothing killed it. That should have been an option on the poll. They worked the kinks out in season nine, season ten had a lot of great episodes, and season eleven would have been terrific.
I didn't like Vala at first, and she will never be my favorite character, but they made her more rounded, and I think that process would have continued and she would have become more realistic and in line with the other characters. Cam was good from word go. I think the success of the movies proves just how wrong they were to cancel the show.

Vala is not NID but she is a thief and a slaver who left Hammond and the rest of the crew of the Prometheus to die. She is not a politician but she is a proud thief and a liar who is supposedly a slick talker and will say anything to get her way and make money (which is really the same thing). She took Daniel hostage TWICE with the second time nearly leading to his death and she did it for money. Jonas did not cause Daniels death, Jack never said he did. Jack was mad because Jonas was not HONEST and did not report the death as it happened. I don't recall Vala being known for her Honesty. So we know Jack does not like liars and does not like thieves (those who stole technology from his allies) so it’s not a stretch to say jack would probably not want a thief and a liar on his team.

I do agree that the character should never have been introduced as she was, and should not have been allowed to go offworld with the team or, worse, join it, until they had changed her substantially. She was never created to be SGC, just a stand-in while Amanda Tapping was on maternity leave. So once they decided to make her a regular, they had a problem. It probably would have been just as unrealistic to have her do a complete turn around, so in retrospect, they probably did the next best thing- gradual change. Too gradual for me, but... Anyway, if there had been a season eleven, I expect we would have seen some real changes there.

[Iawen]

I know I'm joining the discussion kinda late, but I'm new and I really don't want to wade through 200+ pages of this discussion, but I do want to add my own opinion. Sorry to rehash old points or bring up things other people did.

I love Cam and Vala both. I definitely don't think they killed the show. I think that seasons nine and ten were among the strongest seasons ever of Stargate, writing and directing-wise. I'm not really sure how either character could have been written in any better than they were, and here's why I think that:

Vala: She was created to be a one-episode character for Prometheus Unbound. They cast Claudia Black, she comes in and just has a ball with this character and did things with her that almost no other actress would have done with a single-shot character; her chemistry with Michael Shanks was undeniable. And the way Daniel reacted to her... Not usual for our dear Dr. Jackson and yet strangely not OoC for him, either. When this episode was first written and shot, no one had an inkling that she would come back for more episodes, but when she was a hit and they needed someone to fill in temporarily for Amanda Tapping, why not bring Vala back? And they stayed true to the character they created in PU while also giving her some very real depth and character growth, and established an acquaintance with the other members of SG-1. I'm glad they didn't rush to change her and I'm not really sure how they could have fleshed her out more without taking time away from the other characters.

Cam: Okay, yes Ben Browder came in to replace RDA. And while I definitely agree that Amanda Tapping could have/should have lead the show herself, I get what all TPTB *show and network included, you know that the network would have insisted on bringing in a male to be front leader no matter what any of the producers/writers thought about it* were thinking. Ben Browder was a great choice. The way they brought him in was perfect. His character was already established in the stargate world: he'd helped assist SG-1 against Anubis' fleet at the end of season seven. He came in with a lot of respect for SG-1, wanting to JOIN them and not lead them, and then he "put the band back together" but he was never leader leader the way that Jack was: Cam was on even ground with Sam. And because Jack was commander of the SGC in season eight, Landry was the character who actually replaced Jack, not Cam.

I personally don't see how these two characters could have been written in any better than they were. I think they made great additions to the cast.

And granted, I did not watch this show live. Week to week experience is always different from the DVD experience.