The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Jackie]

I get the impression that you wouldn't accept anyone new cuz that scenario is very far fetched to go on for a whole season anytime they had AU AR people it was usually just for 1 ep and it was usually just to give you a glimpse or to set up the next ep in season 1 TFTGOG set up Politics and season finale.

Jackie

How could they work around it? RL is more important than a T.V. show people. I thought it was in character for Sam to be in charge of area 51 it made sense with her military and science background it also made sense that now that Jack was no longer there they would go in their own directions Teal'c went back to Jaffa he helped free, Daniel going to Atlantis. As for Jack that was a little choppy I agree but I ask you how available was RDA I wonder cuz something tells me that was probably a constraint that limited the writers I am sure just a feeling.

I think Vala is a complex character that I get the feeling that you dismiss because she can be a wild child. Cam is more than a prop device I related to him more than Jonas. When I was watching the DVDs ealier I really felt Jonas was forced and made to good to true Cam was more down to earth to me.

I'm sorry--I wasn't clear.

I didn't mean make AT come back early and work around her baby. I meant that Mitchell could have been going to DC to see Jack and the Pres. Instead of givin AT some lame--are 51 post. The writers could have made her inaccessible in DC. Mitchell would have to go through hoops to talk to her.

When I said work around it--I meant be more creative in the script. Use that time to state what happened to Jack and if the "shi"p ever went anyplace. Jack should have been in the first episode heavily in order to wrap up his character.

He did guest appearances on SGA and expected to do more on SG-1. He wasn't given the opportunity.

[Skydiver]

as to rda's availabiltiy...from all i heard he WAS available. in fact, for s10, when they signed him for '5 episodes' he honestly thought he'd be doing stargate...instead they put him over on atlantis for 3 of them. he made some comment like 'i thought i was coming back to my family, instead i came back to someone else's'


so the actor was apparantly very willing to come back to stargate to deal with his character, instead TPTB decided to put him over on atlantis. we don't know precisely WHY they did it. rumors/supposition includes such theories as stunt casting for atlantis and the fear that, wtih jack's return, cameron's flaws would be oh so much more evident, thus they tried to keep the characters as separate as possible.

and even if the actor couldn't come - such as for unending or trnt...why can't the character even be mentioned? why didn't sam ask after jack in trnt? she asked after everyone short of Walter. why wasn't jack a topic of a line or two of dialogue in unending? given the situation that they were in, why wasn't what they were missing a topic of discussion?

not that the show must revolve around old characters, however the lack of even a mention of a very prominant one sticks out like a sore thumb.

in the case of unending, we can have scene after scene of daniel and his girlfriend and coop seems to go OTT in any effort to promote his favorite little characters...but also seems to go OTT to banish any and all he doesn't like...and he doesn't seem to like Jack very much.

[Jackie]

I seem to recall coop stating in an interview that he wanted the show to be a whole new show.

Perhaps in his mind--he thought by avoiding the past canon he would have his whole new show.

The show is not stargate to many long time fans anymore. Those of us who stick around do so for different reasons. Some hoping to see a glimmer of what the show used to be like. Those who like the newer version. And people (like me) who view the show as a failed spin off. The spin off is no wheres as good as the original SG-1--but has improved from season one--slightly.

IMHO, Cooper is doing everything in his power to make his new show. It's almost like, he wanted his new show. TPTB would not let him have it--so he will make his new show under the old name or anyway he can.

Cooper wanted his Stargate Command. Skiffy wanted SG-1 for 10 seasons. Skiffy had no intension of keeping SG-1 for 11 seasons. They cancelled the show very early in season 10--sighting cost.

I persoanlly believe that one of the reasons why the shows cannon and Jack have been disregarded is because Cooper does not see them in his "new show" and certianly won't bend for the sake of his pride and properly tranition the show to spin off he wanted.

Skiffy made mistakes, Cooper and co made mistakes and we the fans are the ones who stuck holding on to this mixed bag of new and old.

I hope that RDA is in much of the second movie. I also hope that he did have some input into the show and it's better than it sounds.

[Skydiver]

i can see that. i do think that coop was bound and determined to have his very own show and danged by anyone that tries to limit his greatness and creativity!!!!!

look at ben. he was hired to be the 'star' but...can anyone honesty say that he's been starring in the show? seriously the dude has no storyline beyond being the episodic 'wmah' who risks life and limb to do whatever the plot allows.

there's nothing about cameron that is vital to the story and he could be replaced by any other white male action hero with little to no fuss.

I think coop, in seemingly insisting upon getting his way, messed things up. I think skiffy, in insisting upon having a s9 and 10 made mistakes. i think the writers, who seemingly were riding a rudderless ship, made mistakes.

and this clash of egos resulted in a mishmash of eccentric and uneven episodes that turned off more fans that it generated and killed the show.

it brings to mind a comment coop made in this interview, about how his favorite part was teh editing part because that's when they could - paraphrased - go back and fix what didn't work or what they weren't able to do.

which could also be interpreted as 'yeah, so the director didn't want to do this my way, so i'll edit his way so that it resembles my way'

I think we had a few too many heels dug into the sand and a few too much 'i'll show them' going on.

[poundpuppy29]

Well I assumed wrong sorry but I think I understand why they don't keep referring to Jack they had to move on it's not fair to keep bringing up a character who isn't there full time. RDA made a choice he decided to spend time with his daughter and leave the show. This is a honorable reason and he is very fortunate to be able to make that choice but the negative part was his Star Power was taken away from the show he is a main stream name that people know and if you look on the back of the DVDs they still mention his old show Magyver which is part of pop culture. How can they move on if they keep talking about him I see 9 and 10 differently than you do I have read over and over again how 8 had the highest ratings well that's why Skiffy wanted another season and RDA wasn't coming back and I understand probably RDA felt the show Story Lines were wrapped up they were, enemies were all defeated goal attained and I have read by some the REAL SG-1 ended at 8 well if Jack is the only member of SG-1 that may be true but there were 3 other members not just Jack well that ratings were so high and from what else I have read TPTB wanted to make another show SKiffy said no and I understand why they did it wouldn't have that known name like SG-1 so they had to retool and since they wanted BB for SGA but couldn't get him so now they could have him for SG-1. So there is politics what else is new if he just wanted to be just on SG-1 he should have made that clear negotiated for that he is not stupid he knows what goes on. How can they move on and develop the characters if they keep bringing up the old ones who aren't there I do somewhat agree maybe he should of been in the finale but from what I gave read they were told with 4 ep left to shoot that it was the end not a lot of time to put it together IMHO. I don't think 9 and 10 were thought of at the end of 8. I don't think the record was thought of just because that's not how T.V. is executives don't think that far ahead normally 9 was because of 8's high ratings and known name show then I think at the end of 9 then the t.v. ex probably thought about the record and gave them season 10 but what they didn't do Skiffy didn't tell them that that was the reason and that was the end so they TPTB didn't know they were in the dark and when they were wrapping up season 10 then with only a few ep left to shoot then the rug was pulled out Skiffy was not honorable they are more at fault then TPTB IMHO. I want to add one more thing that has been bothering me I don't think 9 and 10 are Stargate Command let me tell you why if the SGC was the focus then why would they still focus on the SG-1 team huh they had many roles to fill when RDA left cuz at the end of 8 Jack was the head of SGC and SG-1 to a certain respect we never really got to see Sam lead we got to see Jack ? his sanity I hated that ep I would've rather seen the team in action with the 3 of them. 9 and 10 were a retooled SG-1 I know some of you wish they didn't retool but this was the result of many different actions.

[Skydiver]

Well I assumed wrong sorry but I think I understand why they don't keep referring to Jack they had to move on it's not fair to keep bringing up a character who isn't there full time.

I don't expect them to mention jack every scene. but there are times like in the road not taken

Spoiler:

sam asks after landry and cam and daniel and vala....and doens't mention the head of homeworld security?????

or in unending

Spoiler:

they're all trapped in time and no one ever laments those left behind? that it's 50 years later and cassie is a grandma by now, or jack would be dead by now, or ryac would be...by now

it's times like that when NOT mentioning jack sticks out like a sort thumb and is frankly odd

it's times like that when it seems like they go out of thier way to ignore jack...and who would want to ignore a person that'd been an integral part of their lives for 10 years?

[poundpuppy29]

I really believe Unending was rushed and put together because of the late notice this came out of the blue from what I read they had a different idea and SKiffy had influence on the script. I don't know what kind of relationship Coop and RDA have I do like Coop's writing and style of show and from what I can tell you don't and that's fine we have differing opinions but I don't want you to think I hate RDA or Jack I don't I do enjoy the character and all of his interactions with everyone and everthing I have read about RDA and interviews I have seen tells me that he's a good guy I even found his website and from the little notes he leaves I get the impression he's down to earth guy. I don't know if there is bad blood maybe there is but I am not going to take sides none of my business. There were parts of Unending that I loved sure you know which ones but there was some that I didn't I did feel Cam was OOC with Sam he never acted that way with her before in one part I think this is cuz the script it was controlled by Skiffy to a certain effect they didn't want a cliff hanger which TPTB wanted to set up the movies.

[petemoretti]

I really believe Unending was rushed and put together because of the late notice this came out of the blue from what I read they had a different idea and SKiffy had influence on the script. I don't know what kind of relationship Coop and RDA have I do like Coop's writing and style of show and from what I can tell you don't and that's fine we have differing opinions but I don't want you to think I hate RDA or Jack I don't I do enjoy the character and all of his interactions with everyone and everthing I have read about RDA and interviews I have seen tells me that he's a good guy I even found his website and from the little notes he leaves I get the impression he's down to earth guy. I don't know if there is bad blood maybe there is but I am not going to take sides none of my business. There were parts of Unending that I loved sure you know which ones but there was some that I didn't I did feel Cam was OOC with Sam he never acted that way with her before in one part I think this is cuz the script it was controlled by Skiffy to a certain effect they didn't want a cliff hanger which TPTB wanted to set up the movies.

What do you mean ?

[Jackie]

I'm sorry poundpuppy--I had to edit your paragraph in order to read what you were saying. You have many run on sentences. My replies are in green.

Well, I assumed. Wrong, sorry, but I think that I understand why they don't keep referring to Jack. They had to move on it's not fair to keep bringing up a character who isn't there full time. RDA made a choice he decided to spend time with his daughter and leave the show. This is a honorable reason and he is very fortunate to be able to make that choice. But the negative part was his "Star Power" and that was taken away from the show. He is a main stream name that people know and if you look on the back of the DVDs they still mention his old show, Magyver--which is part of pop culture.

You cannot ignore 8 years and a major TV and movie character. They do have to bring up the name in order to inform the fans as to what has happaned to a character that the fans have spent 8 years getting to know.

How can they move on if they keep talking about him? I see 9 and 10 differently than you do. I have read over and over again how 8 had the highest ratings. Well that's why Skiffy wanted another season!

It is very possible to make a show and still have refrence to a star character. Ignoring the shows past just makes many fans upset. They don't have to dedicate 15 minutes of every show to the past character. But dropping his name in every day conversations would be normal. Just like a regual person asking how thier friend was doing. Jack is supposed to have input from Washinton. He's landry's boss. Even with Jack not there--the character's input is important to the flow of command.

RDA wasn't coming back and I understand that probably RDA felt the show story lines were wrapped up. They were--enemies were all defeated. Goal attained and I have read by some the REAL SG-1 ended at 8.

That's correct. Season 8 was to be the last. However, they never know if they will be renewed until the last minute

Well if Jack is the only member of SG-1, that may be true. But there were 3 other members not just Jack. Well that ratings were so high and from what else I have read, TPTB wanted to make another show. SKiffy said "no" and I understand why they did it wouldn't have that known name like SG-1.

TPTB had decided that they made SO many CHANGES that it should be under a new show stauce and title. They wanted to change the name to stargate commend. That was reported in an artical here on gateworld.

So they had to retool and since they wanted BB for SGA but couldn't get him. So now they could have him for SG-1. So there is politics, what else is new if he just wanted to be just on SG-1.

I have no idea what you are asking.

He should have made that clear negotiated for that he is not stupid--he knows what goes on.

mitchell or RDA? Still lost.

How can they move on and develop the characters if they keep bringing up the old ones who aren't there?

Have to acknowledge the past of the show and the show's canon or set rules. They did neither. It would have been a benefit to Cam if they did bring up Jack. See, Jack had faults. He was not a shiny new penny. Mitchell, had no flaults. That makes the character cliche and unbelieveable.

I do somewhat agree that maybe he should of been in the finale, but from what I have read--they were told with 4 ep left to shoot that it was the end. Not a lot of time to put it together IMHO.

Up till season 9--the writers have ALWAYS treated the final episode of the season as the final for the series. They did that becuase they KNEW there would not be enough time to come up with a cliff hanger ep based on the way skiffy renewed thier show so late. Season 9 and ten they did not follow that rule. They assumed it would be renewed DISPITE skiffy telling them it was getting costly. Skiffy cancelled--Cooper acted surpirsed!

I don't think 9 and 10 were thought of at the end of 8. I don't think the record was thought of just because that's not how T.V. executives don't think that far ahead normally.

Obviously, they were told to make the season last as the series last ep. So, how do TV ex work? Source please.

9 was because of 8's high ratings and known name show--then I think at the end of 9. Then the t.v. ex probably thought about the record and gave them season 10. But what they didn't do--Skiffy didn't tell them that that was the reason and that was the end--so they--TPTB didn't know they were in the dark and when they were wrapping up season 10.

[That's what we have been saying all along.

Then with only a few ep left to shoot then the rug was pulled out. Skiffy was not honorable and they are more at fault then TPTB, IMHO.

They also cancelled the show on its 200th celeb. Nice one skiffy.

I want to add one more thing that has been bothering me. I don't think 9 and 10 are Stargate Command. Let me tell you why.

Shoot!

If the SGC was the focus, then why would they still focus on the SG-1 team? Huh? They had many roles to fill when RDA left. Cuz at the end of 8, Jack was the head of SGC and SG-1--to a certain respect.

SG-1 is Stargate Command. The premise of the show has changed--not the characters. Stargate Command deals stargate without the gate. Jack's present in season 8 started to back off. The writer's didn't know what to do and started making the show more base orented then--against RDA's better judgement. He wanted them to focus on Carter as leader--not Carter and Pete. Season 8 was the begining of Stargate Command--from a writer's perspective.

We never really got to see Sam lead. we got to see Jack ? His sanity--I hated that ep. I would've rather seen the team in action with the 3 of them. 9 and 10 were a retooled--SG-1.

But the team in the retooled version was still not interacting as a team. It was Daniel/Vala. Cam/Sam and throw Teal'c in somewhere.

I know some of you wish they didn't retool but this was the result of many different actions.

Many of us wish they marketed it as Stargate Command and that way the fans would KNOW to EXPECT changes.

[poundpuppy29]

What I thought was OOC for Cam with Sam spoilers for Unending

Spoiler:

When he snapped at her when she didn't come up with way get away right away he was rude to her he was never that way with her before usually very respectful of her. He had always been very respectful of her and knew she was a lot smarter than him that was very clear from season 9

Don't get me wrong I don't ship them I think they have a good friendship and I thought it was OOC for him to act that way in that scene

[Skydiver]

i have to agree. cam's behavior in unending was....uncharacteristically short tempered. and it was built up and build up

Spoiler:

almost as if they were leading up to him killing himself or doing something drastically stupid...then nothing.

why was he so annoyed? why was he so frustrated?

they never tell us thus cam being a meanie has no meaning in the grand scheme of things

its a huge plot hole and almost as if they drastically shifted gears mid filming

[poundpuppy29]

I did like him in Dominion and I don't blame him for Bounty or Company of Thieves not his fault BB did the best he could with what was written some of his scenes in Bounty were the only thing I liked. I think Unending was rushed to put together that's why it wasn't polished blame Skiffy they I think they wanted to do something else TPTB Skiffy didn't want a cliff hanger. Quest 1 and 2 were good for him too. I do enjoy his character. The only thing I could come up with for him in Unending spoilers for Unending

Spoiler:

He was going stir crazy he needs to be doing something being idle with out a plan was driving him crazy in the rest of Eps there was always a plan working on something a goal there he was just waiting

[petemoretti]

Still Can someone answer my qs : What was Cam's role in "Unending" ?

[Skydiver]

He was there

Actually Unending was pretty much symbollic of his role on the show as a whole....he was there

[ParadoxRealities]

I get the impression that you wouldn't accept anyone new cuz that scenario is very far fetched to go on for a whole season anytime they had AU AR people it was usually just for 1 ep and it was usually just to give you a glimpse or to set up the next ep in season 1 TFTGOG set up Politics and season finale.

i was responding hypothetically to a hypothetical situation that you inspired.

I think Vala is a complex character that I get the feeling that you dismiss because she can be a wild child. Cam is more than a prop device I related to him more than Jonas. When I was watching the DVDs ealier I really felt Jonas was forced and made to good to true Cam was more down to earth to me.

i like Vala's complex character. it's quite interesting. it's also completely ignored when TPTB write her as a sexed-up dumbed-down, totally OC...:ahem: person. i'm not the one dismissing the former. you can relate to characters any way you want. anecdotally though, the team wasn't literally broken up and reformed around a "CO" who'd never even seen the gate before. who wrongly "received" the CMoH, and doesn't listen to a word said by the people who actually know what they're talking about. that, to me, is not down to earth. but this is just [some] of my evidence, and to each his own.

he made some comment like 'i thought i was coming back to my family, instead i came back to someone else's'

rather reminiscent of what AT said when she got back, no? quite sad, that.

Well I assumed wrong sorry but I think I understand why they don't keep referring to Jack they had to move on it's not fair to keep bringing up a character who isn't there full time. RDA made a choice he decided to spend time with his daughter and leave the show.

ok, a different approach. pretend you just spent the last eight years of your life--the most challenging, life-threatening, exciting, rewarding, surprising, etc years--going to hell and back with your best friend. then they leave and you continue to go to hell and back. wouldn't you mention him/stories with him at times? like say, RE, perhaps? and another thing, if you had an on-running joke/story that, after ten years was finally manifested, shouldn't it be done with the right people, instead of cutting them out? (200)

I have read by some the REAL SG-1 ended at 8 well if Jack is the only member of SG-1 that may be true but there were 3 other members not just Jack.

the vast majority of those that said so stated it after they realized (for themselves) how much s9 sucked. for most who've stated what you mention, it really wasn't about jack, but about the team, writing, and show itself.

So there is politics what else is new if he just wanted to be just on SG-1 he should have made that clear negotiated for that he is not stupid he knows what goes on.

when you work with someone (well) for eight years, IME, you tend to trust them enough not to pull a stunt like that.

How can they move on and develop the characters if they keep bringing up the old ones who aren't there I do somewhat agree maybe he should of been in the finale but from what I gave read they were told with 4 ep left to shoot that it was the end not a lot of time to put it together IMHO.

they've always known when they're season finales were, and they knew this year (rather later), just like the last five years, that it was ("was") their last.

I don't think 9 and 10 were thought of at the end of 8. I don't think the record was thought of just because that's not how T.V. is executives don't think that far ahead normally 9 was because of 8's high ratings and known name show then I think at the end of 9 then the t.v. ex probably thought about the record and gave them season 10 but what they didn't do Skiffy didn't tell them that that was the reason and that was the end so they TPTB didn't know they were in the dark and when they were wrapping up season 10 then with only a few ep left to shoot then the rug was pulled out Skiffy was not honorable they are more at fault then TPTB IMHO.

what makes you think TPTB didn't know when they were going to break a world record? seems like you're selling them rather short. this is an aspect of their job after all, and most of them have proven very effective at it.

I want to add one more thing that has been bothering me I don't think 9 and 10 are Stargate Command let me tell you why if the SGC was the focus then why would they still focus on the SG-1 team

IIRC, the title was less about focusing on the SGC, and more about differentiating the two.

9 and 10 were a retooled SG-1 I know some of you wish they didn't retool but this was the result of many different actions.

...exactly. many of which didn't need to occur. fix it 'til it's broke.

Sky: 'twas also symbolic of our role (and that of the locked HCR), "why"?