The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[esoap524]

If only there were a 12-step program for Gateworld addiction...hehehe

Yes, there have been a wealth of missed opportunities to truly let the characters gain widespread acceptance by fans - not just by a relatively small minority. For many, it has been as if the characters have been shoved down our throats and our beloved team members, except for Daniel and then only inasmuch as he interacts with Vala, have been relegated to less than secondary status.

Indeed, on all counts!

And from a Farscape fan's perspective (mine), it seems like the actors really haven't been given a lot to work with--Claudia's getting some comedic stuff and that's been fun but there've been so many missed opportunities with the character that it irritates me.

So, aside from a few fanatics or delusional thinkers, nobody's happy

Back to my bad fic.

[Skydiver]

It's the writing, stupid. There are moments where Vala's soul is ready to soar through the mediocre storytelling but then it's quickly quashed by a stupid plotline or oneliner and that's it. Vala's multi-dimensionality gets cut out from under her for the sake of a quick quip or a silly gag. The hairdryer, for instance. That's nothing but a sight gag. "The Quest" all the way around was a good opportunity for some Vala depth, especially once Adria is revealed. But no.

I really dislike the way the show has been written; it's frustrating when even I think I could do a better job of it.

And I really dislike that I keep coming back to this thread! It's worse than the Mafia (I keep trying to get out but they keep pulling me back in --Godfather III).

and that's what it all comes back to.

the show needed more characters. it really did. and it needed them before rda left quite frankly. the debacle of daniel/jonas/daniel should have showed them that. the actors were all getting a bit burned out and tired and anyone that was paying attention could realize that they were all hankering for some off-time and a real life.

it's not THAT they were added. It's how, and that how comes back to the writing.

the writers did a very poor job of developing them (and i use that word very, very loosely). they did a poor job of writing them, of introducing them, of maintianing them.

It's like these writers, who had a full house of puppies, just grabbed two more and tossed them into the fray and turned away to brag 'look, ain't they cooottteeeee!!!' when what they shoudl have done is taken a little care, a little respect, a little reverance and made sure that everyone got along before they just walked away and left for the weekend...and then wondered why the puppies got in fights and chewed on the furniture

would the show have lasted forever? no. it was already old and nearing its end, but coop mishandled the show from the first second he was handed the reins in s7, and his mishandling and the miswriting of cam and vala finished putting the nails in the coffin

had it been handled correctly, stargate sill woulda ended, but instead of a disgraceful 'the ratings sucked and it died' it woulda ended like mash...the show was at an end and it could go out while it was still on a good note

[Skydiver]

Indeed, on all counts!

And from a Farscape fan's perspective (mine), it seems like the actors really haven't been given a lot to work with--Claudia's getting some comedic stuff and that's been fun but there've been so many missed opportunities with the character that it irritates me.

So, aside from a few fanatics or delusional thinkers, nobody's happy

Back to my bad fic.

and i feel for them. i honestly think, had the writing been better, cam and vala could have been integrated into the show rather seamlessly, and likely had a brilliant future ahead of them within the franchise
they could have led the 'next generation' so to speak

IF coop and the kids had done thier jobs right intead of taking the easy way out and 'having fun'

ETA: and dont' tag the fic as 'bad' just yet.

[Nolamom]

[Mandysg1]

If only there were a 12-step program for Gateworld addiction...hehehe

I wish I had the 12 step program, I had to go cold turkey when my computer died But now I am back to the addiction

Um to stay on topic.... I'm a space cadet, who used to be an ancient

*That can't be right? Looks at topic again....okay, Yes*

[esoap524]

and that's what it all comes back to.

the show needed more characters. it really did. and it needed them before rda left quite frankly. the debacle of daniel/jonas/daniel should have showed them that. the actors were all getting a bit burned out and tired and anyone that was paying attention could realize that they were all hankering for some off-time and a real life.

it's not THAT they were added. It's how, and that how comes back to the writing.

the writers did a very poor job of developing them (and i use that word very, very loosely). they did a poor job of writing them, of introducing them, of maintianing them.

It's like these writers, who had a full house of puppies, just grabbed two more and tossed them into the fray and turned away to brag 'look, ain't they cooottteeeee!!!' when what they shoudl have done is taken a little care, a little respect, a little reverance and made sure that everyone got along before they just walked away and left for the weekend...and then wondered why the puppies got in fights and chewed on the furniture

would the show have lasted forever? no. it was already old and nearing its end, but coop mishandled the show from the first second he was handed the reins in s7, and his mishandling and the miswriting of cam and vala finished putting the nails in the coffin

had it been handled correctly, stargate sill woulda ended, but instead of a disgraceful 'the ratings sucked and it died' it woulda ended like mash...the show was at an end and it could go out while it was still on a good note

And it still could have been these actors and these characters...it was the way they were introduced, but, moreso, the way they've played out. I don't see Atlantis as being a whole lot better. Lots of cute quips and nice looking folks but no real depth or emotion or passion. And when a character does look like he/she might go down that route, the writing takes a sharp right into juvenile.

Actor burn out is a big issue--it affects all long term shows, I think. Browder and Black have a lot of energy and certainly no one is arguing that they can't act (and if they are, I think they need to watch some Farscape--I recommend "A Human Reaction", season 1, episode 16).

...but I digress. I think tptb brought had the right actors. What they failed to do was allow the characters to grow and take shape in any way that was organic with the rest of the team. Surely both Cameron and Vala are filled with self doubt; that's proven by Cameron's own admission to Sam that he doesn't want to screw things up and Vala's eagerness to have Daniel accept her. They're both their own worst enemy in that regards and that would/should lead to inner conflict which would lead to character growth.

But no. I'm all for pretty people in olive green but, geez. Let's not over do it.

and i feel for them. i honestly think, had the writing been better, cam and vala could have been integrated into the show rather seamlessly, and likely had a brilliant future ahead of them within the franchise
they could have led the 'next generation' so to speak

IF coop and the kids had done thier jobs right intead of taking the easy way out and 'having fun'

ETA: and dont' tag the fic as 'bad' just yet.

See above--yep, I agree. Cam and Vala and the actors who play them could have continued the franchise into the "next generation." This is a genre in which both actors are relatively well known and popular and they have a proven ability to generate chemistry with other actors. I do think, at least, that Black and Browder look comfortable among the group of existing actors. There've been some Sam/Cam bits that I've really enjoyed; when they come thru the gate, for instance, in "Insiders" and Mitchell's keeping track of how many Ba'als have been captured and Carter says "it's not a race". Little bits like that. It's when they actually have to move thru the whole writing part that everyone looks off kilter. I just want them all to get the opportunity to have some depth that arises from the story.

"Counterstrike" for instance, actually has a little of that. You get a bit of Daniel backstory for Vala, which puts her in a slightly different frame of mind towards daniel. I think that early scene where they think Adria's dead and discuss relief...that's all quite good. You get some Vala angst with Adria (I really liked the Adria/Vala stuff). I liked Mitchell's hesitation at pulling the trigger on the bomb. You know that he knows he should but, heck, he's human and who wants to blow himself up. And then when it doesn't go off, how he actually seems frustrated by the failure of the mission even if it meant he'd have blown himself up. I liked that. I thought all those things said something about these characters. I wasn't pleased that Sam was taken out of play but, overall, i thought it was a pretty good episode.

I liked "Uninvited" because we saw some non Daniel Vala interactions. The characters of Sam and Vala are like a female odd couple--you don't need to write it funny because it's already comical by virtue of their diffrences, yet they were able to work together in spite of that. Again, in that episode, i thought the team moved together pretty well. It didn't feel as forced as other times, until the end when they're all on the ground moving out to find the monster, or whatever it was. then Vala becomes "funny Vala" again. I really wish Carter would say this: "two words, Vala. Shut. Up." That'd be funny!

so there have been moments in the season that leave me going "oh, so close!" but so many others that make me want to throw popcorn at the TV. Or the writers.

As for the fic...well, at least no one has taken a sharp turn into juvenile but I believe we will plumb the depths of despair. That might be fun.

[Skydiver]

absolutely the same characters could have worked.

instead of mister hero worship, cmoh winning cute guy who is the darling of the sgc and the poster child for the Marty Stu, we coul have gotten the earnest Major MItchell,dealing with being the co, then having to step down, or Colonel Mitchell, scarred from a bad experience who doesn't believe in aliens...and ends up working with them.

vala could have been teh conniving con-artist who's outed by sg1 and then has to be rescued by them and proves her worth instead of miss potty mouth 2006 with a fascination for leather

They could have been fit INTO the show, instead the show was warped and twisted to fit them, and in the process the viewers were so mangled that they turned off the set

that's the biggest shame of the whole thing. they could have been written well and inserted well, if the writers had just treated the show and its universe responsibly

[Agent_Dark]

But to be fair, didn't people have a lot to say about 26 year old Michael Shanks and 28 year old Amanda Tapping being PHds and all that stuff at their age? Or even if AT was closer to 30 at the time, she still looked very young.

I dont think that was so bad. Alot of really smart people can have a PHd relatively early on in age. Sam and Daniel are meant to be geniuses after all.

[Skydiver]

not really. ok, the anti-sam folks did have fun doing the math and using it prove that sam wansn't worthy, but you know, sam and daniel were never part of the 'hard sell'. the show never was 'aren't they great and fantastic!!! you're gonna love them, you just have to love them'

they were just there and they did their job and even the other characters weren't all in awe of them and 'wow, look, tha'ts captain carter. did you know that she did this and that and this??????'

daniel and sam were never 'sold' to the fans. they were just there and did thier jobs and we were never subjected to 'omg, you should be grateful that they're here'

with cam especially, he was such the hard sell that it just m ade things all the more difficult. because the harder he was pushed on us, the harder your instinct is to push back

[esoap524]

I dont think that was so bad. Alot of really smart people can have a PHd relatively early on in age. Sam and Daniel are meant to be geniuses after all.

Geniuses AND gorgeous. See, that's TV for ya!

[Mandysg1]

And it still could have been these actors and these characters...it was the way they were introduced, but, moreso, the way they've played out. I don't see Atlantis as being a whole lot better. Lots of cute quips and nice looking folks but no real depth or emotion or passion. And when a character does look like he/she might go down that route, the writing takes a sharp right into juvenile.

Actor burn out is a big issue--it affects all long term shows, I think. Browder and Black have a lot of energy and certainly no one is arguing that they can't act (and if they are, I think they need to watch some Farscape--I recommend "A Human Reaction", season 1, episode 16).

...but I digress. I think tptb brought had the right actors. What they failed to do was allow the characters to grow and take shape in any way that was organic with the rest of the team. Surely both Cameron and Vala are filled with self doubt; that's proven by Cameron's own admission to Sam that he doesn't want to screw things up and Vala's eagerness to have Daniel accept her. They're both their own worst enemy in that regards and that would/should lead to inner conflict which would lead to character growth.

But no. I'm all for pretty people in olive green but, geez. Let's not over do it.

When I first saw that part, I thought that okay, this could be a good character, he seemed believable at the time, with his self doubt. But then I don't know what the writers were thinking, they turned him into IMO an unbelievable super hero wannabe, they started off on the right foot, but then tripped all over themselves

[esoap524]

When I first saw that part, I thought that okay, this could be a good character, he seemed believable at the time, with his self doubt. But then I don't know what the writers were thinking, they turned him into IMO an unbelievable super hero wannabe, they started off on the right foot, but then tripped all over themselves

And it's a shame because self doubting, unsure guy who's trying to use a macho swagger to get past his insecurities may be a cliche but he's also more interesting than a truly macho hero who's just a hero. Period.

Flaws are good when writing drama. But not flawed writing, flawed characters. I guess tptb forgot that part of the memo.

[Skydiver]

and if they have flaws, acknowledge them.

after stronghold, it would have been perfect to have sam take cam aside adn tell him if he EVER pulled something like that again, she'd shoot him. then have teal'c tell her she couldn't do that...that he'd do it for her.

call him on his actions. that's normal. that's real. that would be development.

when vala snarks off like she did in uninvited, have them call her on it. tell her to hush.

sam is very straight laced. it would have been great if there had been a situation with her and vala and vala tries to get her to loosen up and chill out. to not take everything so seriously. to live for the day, somethng like that

teal'c sees straight through vala. i'd like to see the two of them together more. teal'c forces vala to not hide behind innuendo. i'd like him to bring out the 'real' vala. someone that's brash but insecure, intelligent but horribly terrified at the same time

[esoap524]

and if they have flaws, acknowledge them.

after stronghold, it would have been perfect to have sam take cam aside adn tell him if he EVER pulled something like that again, she'd shoot him. then have teal'c tell her she couldn't do that...that he'd do it for her.

call him on his actions. that's normal. that's real. that would be development.

and Sam could have done it, too, and he would have listened to her because I don't think there's any doubt that he has some respect for her.

when vala snarks off like she did in uninvited, have them call her on it. tell her to hush.

sam is very straight laced. it would have been great if there had been a situation with her and vala and vala tries to get her to loosen up and chill out. to not take everything so seriously. to live for the day, somethng like that

There's some of that in "Uninvited" when they're in the general's office and Vala sits her butt down in the general's chair, and Sam's comment about a woman having sat there before. That all seemed very real. Vala was trying to get Sam riled, or out of her shell (what Vala would likely consider it), to "live a little" even if it only meant sitting in the general's chair. I liked that moment for that reason--it seemed very real. It also seemed very real later when they sat side by side watching Teal'c deal with the slug thing. Again, they looked very comfortable together.

then you had the whole Vala going off on a tangent during the mission briefing. After the camaraderie she and Sam had sort of built up during the episde, it would have been easy for Sam to clear her throat and do a sort of slashing moment across her throat or shake her head--"no, that's not cool, you have to be quiet." There's no doubt in my mind that Vala would listen to Sam, probably more than she listens to the guys, and no doubt that Sam shouldn't have cut her any slack. That's all it would have taken to have made that scene believable. Cam sort of does it but not really and I think it would have been in keeping with the episode had Carter given her the kill sign.

There's a line later in the episode after they kill the creature where Vala says something like "who knew one creature could wreak such havoc" and Sam gets this great look on her face that seems to say "yeah, who knew?" A little irony given that the one creature, Vala, can wreak so much havoc. That was funny, and organic, and came out of the stuff that happened during the episode.

teal'c sees straight through vala. i'd like to see the two of them together more. teal'c forces vala to not hide behind innuendo. i'd like him to bring out the 'real' vala. someone that's brash but insecure, intelligent but horribly terrified at the same time

I love Teal'c and Vala and her line to him truly was a good Vala moment--she would say "I'm flattered but we dont' have time for this" when he's on top of her, and he is completely unflappable. I loved them in that episode.

Teal'c doesn't put up with anyone's crap. At least that still seems consistent.

[majorsal]

so i guess we're in agreement that daniel ruins everything?



sally

and Sam could have done it, too, and he would have listened to her because I don't think there's any doubt that he has some respect for her.



There's some of that in "Uninvited" when they're in the general's office and Vala sits her butt down in the general's chair, and Sam's comment about a woman having sat there before. That all seemed very real. Vala was trying to get Sam riled, or out of her shell (what Vala would likely consider it), to "live a little" even if it only meant sitting in the general's chair. I liked that moment for that reason--it seemed very real. It also seemed very real later when they sat side by side watching Teal'c deal with the slug thing. Again, they looked very comfortable together.

then you had the whole Vala going off on a tangent during the mission briefing. After the camaraderie she and Sam had sort of built up during the episde, it would have been easy for Sam to clear her throat and do a sort of slashing moment across her throat or shake her head--"no, that's not cool, you have to be quiet." There's no doubt in my mind that Vala would listen to Sam, probably more than she listens to the guys, and no doubt that Sam shouldn't have cut her any slack. That's all it would have taken to have made that scene believable. Cam sort of does it but not really and I think it would have been in keeping with the episode had Carter given her the kill sign.

There's a line later in the episode after they kill the creature where Vala says something like "who knew one creature could wreak such havoc" and Sam gets this great look on her face that seems to say "yeah, who knew?" A little irony given that the one creature, Vala, can wreak so much havoc. That was funny, and organic, and came out of the stuff that happened during the episode.



I love Teal'c and Vala and her line to him truly was a good Vala moment--she would say "I'm flattered but we dont' have time for this" when he's on top of her, and he is completely unflappable. I loved them in that episode.

Teal'c doesn't put up with anyone's crap. At least that still seems consistent.