The reason the Ori hate the Ancients

[Barca]

The Altera, we know now, used genetic modifications to evolve closer to a form capable of ascending. AKA, they chose the scientific path to Ascension.

How does that jibe with what we know about the Ancients?
Specifically the Buddist temple of the planet Kheb where Daniel meets a monk that tries to help people ascend? That is where he meets Oma Desala for the first time while searching for the Harcesis.
It seems that ascension for the Ancients was very religious.

OTOH, it is Anubis that tries a scientific approach.

[MarshAngel]

Have the Ancients truly proven that they aren't evil,...

Could you definitevly decide if human society is good or evil? On one hand we have Oprah the charity giver on the other hand we have Hitler. Timothy McVeigh, Mother Teresa...

The Ancients can't be pigeonholed this way unless you subscribe to the thoery that they are gods and therefore perfectly all one way or the other and infallible.

...it what way, what have any of the Ancients actually done for us, Orlin didn't come to warn us of the Ori for our sakes, he did it for his, and the other Ancients.

And we didn't help free the Jaffa out of the goodness of our hearts. It benefits us greatly. Are we evil for having alterior motives?

Which Ancient has helped us, who Janus, Chaya condemned people for their beliefs, she said, that the people of the Atlantis expedition couldn't live among her and her people.

The Tollan didn't help us much either. They aren't evil. Not helping someone who has other avenues of opportunity to help themselves is not the same thing as killing them.

even though the writers will most likely go that direction for its simplicity, the Ancients have never helped anyone but themselves. Oma is the only good Ancient in my opinion, and she is punished for her actions, so was Orlin.

If they were helping and messed up, or we didn't like how they did what they did, we would condemn them.

Imagine if they invited us to their plane of existence to take care of one of their problems and then sent us away when they didn't need us anymore, or objected to our involvement in other ascended affairs that aren't really any of our business. Reverse the scenario and this is basically what we're asking.

You seem to be working from the premise that they owe us something or that they're neglecting a task they're supposed to be doing. If only by comparison, the ancients have proven themselves by not trying to kill us; which is one big positive point over the Ori.

It doesn't make them perfect, or all good just... not evil.

[JanusAncient]

Could you definitevly decide if human society is good or evil? On one hand we have Oprah the charity giver on the other hand we have Hitler. Timothy McVeigh, Mother Teresa...

Truth, I neither believe in good nor evil, the terms themselves are overly-simplistic! There are several directions, you can take one or the other, but in the grand scheme of things is either more important, i.e. sanctioned by the universe, deemed the right course?

The Ancients can't be pigeonholed this way unless you subscribe to the thoery that they are gods and therefore perfectly all one way or the other and infallible.

For one, they are gods, in the Stargate realm, they have all the power of a god, I think it is people who don't understand what a god is, and what it is not. Gods, for the most part, are really just beings that others worship. Do you really believe, that first a being created his/her self, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then went on to create a universe, I have faith, but truly no one can actually be that naive.

And we didn't help free the Jaffa out of the goodness of our hearts. It benefits us greatly. Are we evil for having alterior motives?

No, but we aren't completely honest now are we?

The Tollan didn't help us much either. They aren't evil. Not helping someone who has other avenues of opportunity to help themselves is not the same thing as killing them.

It isn't the fact that they don't help us, that makes them, in my opinion, misleading. It's the fact, that they only break their supreme rule of non-interference, when their butts are on the line, if you aren't going to help, don't, I'd rather get there on my own. But, don't get involved only to help yourselves.

If they were helping and messed up, or we didn't like how they did what they did, we would condemn them.

They are ascended beings, our condemnation shouldn't bother them one bit, help if you're going to, don't if you're not.

You seem to be working from the premise that they owe us something or that they're neglecting a task they're supposed to be doing. If only by comparison, the ancients have proven themselves by not trying to kill us; which is one big positive point over the Ori.

They owe us nothing, but the Ori are a problem they should've dealt with long ago, especially if all they had to do was launch Merlin's anti-ascended being device through a Stargate, and call it a day. You really believe, that by not trying to kill us, that they've proven something. The Ori, they only kill those who oppose them, granted for ascended beings this is a bit much, still we do the same. The Ori, the Ancients, I just think that there is a lot about both their motives, that we simply do not understand.!

It doesn't make them perfect, or all good just... not evil.[/QUOTE]


The same could be said of the Ori, they have their reasons, from their point of view, what they have done, and what they continue to do is for the betterment of all of mankind. What the Ancients do, is for the betterment of them, and only them.

[MarshAngel]

TFor one, they are gods, in the Stargate realm, they have all the power of a god, I think it is people who don't understand what a god is, and what it is not. Gods, for the most part, are really just beings that others worship. Do you really believe, that first a being created his/her self, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then went on to create a universe, I have faith, but truly no one can actually be that naive.

They are not gods. Going back to reality for a moment. We are free to define god however we want. You can worship whomever you want but if they can't do the things you've attributed to them, then they are not gods. If I can't hear, understand, or grant an ascetic Indian man's prayer to god then I am not his god. If I heard and chose not to answer that's one thing. But the ancients are neither omniscient nor omnipresent.

By mine, and millions of others' definition of God, the Ancients do not fit the bill. They cannot and do not answer our prayers etc. Furthermore humans in SGs Milky Way don't worship them. No worshippers, no believers, no god.

No, but we aren't completely honest now are we?

In matters that concern them, yes we are.... as far as I recall. They know about our motives, they have their own as well.

It isn't the fact that they don't help us, that makes them, in my opinion, misleading. It's the fact, that they only break their supreme rule of non-interference, when their butts are on the line, if you aren't going to help, don't, I'd rather get there on my own. But, don't get involved only to help yourselves.

We do the exact same thing. We want the ancients to get involved only to save our asses although a large part of this problem is our own stupidity and curiosity. I assure you that if we won this with their interference, we'd resist suggestions from them on how to run our planet, should they choose to give them.

It's purely self serving. When we're not in dire straits we're perfectly OK with them not being here.

They are ascended beings, our condemnation shouldn't bother them one bit, help if you're going to, don't if you're not.

Against our desires? I think not. And it would be far easier for our condemnations not to bother them if they weren't involved. If we're condemning them and they're stiill doing what they do, then we're slaves to their will. We're not now, let's not go there.

They owe us nothing, but the Ori are a problem they should've dealt with long ago, especially if all they had to do was launch Merlin's anti-ascended being device through a Stargate, and call it a day.

That is assuming they could have done so. That weapon was built in the last ten thousand years, fairly recently. The Ori galaxy had probably been enslaved long before that, too late to fix that easily. Until just now, the Ori didn't know about us. There was no good reason to risk all out war for this especially since we don't know what the consequences of that would be for us, them, or everyone else.

You really believe, that by not trying to kill us, that they've proven something. The Ori, they only kill those who oppose them, granted for ascended beings this is a bit much, still we do the same. The Ori, the Ancients, I just think that there is a lot about both their motives, that we simply do not understand.!

By not trying to kill us or help us they've proven that they've moved on and we're free to do as we will with our lives and territory with no effect on them or without expecting, response or retribution. If we have to think about what they may or may not do or think for better or worse at all, we're not really free.

The same can't be said of the Ori. They dont need to be involved on our plane but they are. We can do without them but still, they interfere. We can take responsibility for our actions but they decide whats wrong or right. And the only reason they interfere is to suck up our energy. Not free.

At least we know the ancients aren't getting this from us because we're not exactly prostrating for six hours for them. That's at least one plus in their favor.

The same could be said of the Ori, they have their reasons, from their point of view, what they have done, and what they continue to do is for the betterment of all of mankind. What the Ancients do, is for the betterment of them, and only them.

How is mental enslavement to false gods who force you to kill in their name with none of their promised benefits to our benefit. How is eliminating all evidence of those who came before you, keeping you at a low level of technology for thousands of years, to the benefit of man?

At least when the ancients stay out of our business we get the option to suceed or fail according to our will, not theirs.

[nano]

Good and evil is a point of view.

[zpm!!]

Could be possible. Perhaps ascended beings appearances reflect their inner nature. The Ori being fiery and wrathful beings, Ancients being white peaceful beings and another type which included Anubis were...dark...empty inside, only wanted more and more.

funny if u look at it that way. good= light
bad= fire
evil anubis scum= dark chaos.
wraith= bluish therefore there just scum!!!!

LOL

[zpm!!]

Good and evil is a point of view.

if and only if u are looking from the side lines!!!!

[Scyld]

Good and evil is a point of view.

Actually, strictly speaking, they are not so much points of view as they are states of being. The difference between them is both simpler and more complex than you might guess. That difference is this: good is right and evil is wrong.

That is, goodness is in accordance with some higher principle or law, or closer in line with the true nature of reality, or the Divine (dare I say 'God?') in a way that evil is not and cannot be. Why? Because that's what 'good' means. Otherwise, you are not talking about good and evil at all, but rather 'the viewpoint I happen to prefer' as opposed to 'the viewpoint I happen not to prefer.'

Now, you can say 'I do not believe in good and evil,' but if so, then there's no use talking about them as anything at all (because you have plainly said that you do not believe they exist). But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that we can deny the 'rightness' of good or the 'wrongness' of evil and still be talking about the same thing.

[jinntann]

good and evil are only what people think, the ori are not evil o themselves, and they thinlk others are eveil, vise versa for other races

[Setesh]

Actually, strictly speaking, they are not so much points of view as they are states of being. The difference between them is both simpler and more complex than you might guess. That difference is this: good is right and evil is wrong.

That is, goodness is in accordance with some higher principle or law, or closer in line with the true nature of reality, or the Divine (dare I say 'God?') in a way that evil is not and cannot be. Why? Because that's what 'good' means. Otherwise, you are not talking about good and evil at all, but rather 'the viewpoint I happen to prefer' as opposed to 'the viewpoint I happen not to prefer.'

So basicly... the viewpoint you happen to prefer is good?

[IcyNeko]

I think that most issues in Scifi reflect controversies that we see today. This is readily apparent in Battlestar Galactica (Sharon's baby and the drama following that), and also with the Ori/Alterrans. This is dangerous for Stargate, because people nowadays are locked in very similar mentalities if you believe it or not.

The Ori want the Alterrans dead because they are intolerant. They think their way is the only way, and that any other way is a lie. They go to extreme lengths to convert people, and would kill ancients on sight (Book of Origin). This is apparent in the way their jaf-.. priors teach. They use "worship the ori" rhetoric and teach though fear.

The Ancients researched another means to reach ascension. They tried technology, but in the end they still had to incorporate a spiritual aspect. But they incorporated a "anyone can do it their own way, but if they'd like to learn how to do it my way, they have to follow the path that I followed." (at least this was the case with Oma) This is a very open-minded approach.

Where this treads on modern day society is... think of the religious zealots out there. I'm talking about the Bin Ladens, the Pat Robertsons, the Westboro Baptist Church... they preach that people who follow any other path other than their flavor of Christianity is doomed to burn in the fires of hell. I'm sure if we let Robertson have command of the US Army, he'd wage a global crusade. Such is the way of the Ori.

It's people who have forgotten the true intent of religion that do this. They teach fear in order to exploit their followers and gain more power. Religion was created to help people reach their own state of inner peace.... how you get there is not as important as the fact that you're getting there.

I saw a video called "1 Giant Leap", where they interviewed various religious leaders in India about faith. It was so refreshing to see Christians, Jews, Muslims, Khrisna, Buddhists... all talking about finding inner peace through any means.. not cutting down each other's religions or starting fights. I think this is shown in the Ancient's path to Ascension... an open, wide road of life with many side roads.

[Scyld]

So basicly... the viewpoint you happen to prefer is good?

No. The viewpoint that I happen to prefer is preferrable to me, but it is not necessarily good. Goodness, in order to be good, must also be right. That is, it must be correct. It must be in accordance with reality (with the Actual) in a way that evil is not and cannot be, or else it is not good at all, but merely 'the option that I happen to prefer.' Again, this is what good means.

I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. The words 'good' and 'evil' carry with them an assumption of basic moral right and moral wrong. Deny this assumption (and you are free to do so if you so choose), and the words lose their meaning.

[Setesh]

No. The viewpoint that I happen to prefer is preferrable to me, but it is not necessarily good. Goodness, in order to be good, must also be right. That is, it must be correct. It must be in accordance with reality (with the Actual) in a way that evil is not and cannot be, or else it is not good at all, but merely 'the option that I happen to prefer.' Again, this is what good means.

I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. The words 'good' and 'evil' carry with them an assumption of basic moral right and moral wrong. Deny this assumption (and you are free to do so if you so choose), and the words lose their meaning.

Indeed. So an southern plantation owner in the 19th century would be right to call an abolotionist evil? He is messing up what has been right for hundreds of years, what is reality.

Say that in my world the moral right is the dominance of my race, nazis, Goul'd, slavers, you get the picture. In my world we are the good guys. Indeed for the better part of humanity slavery has not been seen as wrong except in very few places. Was the entire world evil at that time, or was the concepts of right and wrong just different?
In ancient greek "good" basicly translates as nobleman while evil also has a meaning as 'those that lie', the greek nobilitys way of describing the commoners. Indeed, in most indo-european societies good was equalled with being rich, powerful and couragous. A commoner was per definition spiritually lower standing, and thereby evil.

[Scyld]

Indeed. So an southern plantation owner in the 19th century would be right to call an abolotionist evil? He is messing up what has been right for hundreds of years, what is reality.

You are looking at it from a 'shades of gray' mentality. Within the whole concept of 'Good and Evil' (note the capitalization), there exists the idea that morality exists independently of human beings. That there is a higher reality, and that goodness is measured by how closely our actions are in accordance with the Really Real. It does *not* mean that whatever we see around us is good by default.

Say that in my world the moral right is the dominance of my race, nazis, Goul'd, slavers, you get the picture. In my world we are the good guys. Indeed for the better part of humanity slavery has not been seen as wrong except in very few places. Was the entire world evil at that time, or was the concepts of right and wrong just different?

Assuming that our modern sensibilities are correct, then the entire world would have been evil at that time. Assuming that the very same morality that was preached back in the day (and is still preached today) is correct, then both the entire world at the time was evil, and the entire world today is evil.

I am not here saying that this is correct. I am only here defining the terminology. To invoke 'Good and Evil' is a serious thing.

[Sauron18]

Well, knowing that the Ancients managed to achieve ascension through artificial means (most of them), it's quite possible that the Ori were those few who were evolved enough to do it naturally, and felt that using technology to ascend just undermined it.

This probably led to their corruption, and feeling insulted by the "artificial" evolutionary advancement of the ancients proceeded to boosting their egos by having followers, or had already done so.