S10: Critique & Contemplation

[RealmOfX]

Finally someone has asked the golden question!

The answer is simple. RDA on everything!

Many female fans watched stargate becuase it had RDA in it. McGyver in Stargate was cool.

Market RDA and MS as sex symbols and you got it made.

I walk into the grocery store and I am walking down the cookie isle. I have choices galore but my daughter goes right for the bright colored package with m&m's on it.

If they had stargate cookies with RDA or MS on the box I am sure I could pass that off as my daughter's show and buy the cookie. Fall asleep comfortably every night after having my stargate cookie and gazing upon RDA's face. Ooh, lala land.

Stargate pot holders? Hmm, maybe too geeky but I could buy them for hubby.

Women like to buy for themselves stuff that is taboo...but since we're expected to buy for other's first, we just like to make you all think that's the motive.

Uggggh while this may appeal to some women I know it would piss off a lot of other people. Why not go back to the early days of SG-1 where they told good ole adventurous stories and treated the characters and fans with respect, write solid intelligent scripts with the touch of humour that they used to do. They could also try losing the juvenile schoolboy humour as it has an extremely limited appeal.

Is it going to make me rich?



So if I summarize it all it's: "Make it something women can pass off as buying for other people"?



Play their game, call the boss on his hypocrisy (It's even better to subtly hint it at him). It's what most men would do. It's the same as with salary negotiations when being hired: Women earn less than men in the same position, well they do here, and the reason, it's been researched, is that the women don't play "hard ball". A guy will go to the person hiring him and will try to get a higher salary by asking for it and/or pretending other companies are interested in him (He'll usually get it), while most women don't even ask for those things or ask far too little.

It even works in a normal situation, hint at your bosses that other companies are interested in you and are willing to pay you a lot more, but also tell them that you're interested to stay at the company because you like it if they are willing to make you a counter offer. If you're a valued employee they'll get you on higher pay scales etc...



Simply, appeal to a higher power. Here women were fed up with the old boys networks at the universities and they went to the politicians. The moment they got involved the old boys started hiring more women and appointing more women as professors just to prevent the politicians from meddling in their affairs (It failed though, there are proposals to have an X% of professors being female being discussed).



Not only that, but women don't stand up enough for themselves. I thinkthat women, in general, aren't as egoistic and self-centered as men, which leads to nothing changing. If women were to be a bit more focussed on their own personal benefits instead of sacrificing themselves for others and called men more on their bluffs they'd get a lot more things done.



So why listen to the critism? Ignore it and continue with the fight, you have nothing to lose and can gain only.

The things you mentioned are mere bluff by men testing to see if you have the guts to stand up for yourselves and call them on it, and in the case of women in power it's because you're a threat to them.

I talked about this some time ago with a few other people and we reached the conclusion that women don't know how to play out the power they have. They gain an advantage or a victory but fail to capitalize on it and return close to the starting point.



Fun fact: 97% of all female models in advertisements have been digitally altered, compared to, I believe, 3 ~ 10% of male models.

Oh Greg how innocent of you - stand up for yourself and get fired is what usually happens because a lot of women have absolutely no support and no power and they just get fired. Standing up for yourself and playing hardball gets you labelled as a *itch and other nasty names too, a man does it and he is a master negotiator

I think thats excactly the wrong thing to do.
I dont think women who watch stargate or scifi in general are doing it for the sex-symbols*. There is plenty of mindless TV for that, and thats what they watch a lot of the reality TV for. I think they watched shows like Stargate because ALL the characters, including male and female were treated equally and seemed to have a lot of fun saving the world.

I would market it as they did in the past, as a fun action adventure with an intelligent and cool cast (ALL of them) in the coolest gear (aka not the "sexy" gear.... but I understand if they compromise and go with the greens as opposed to the baggier BDU's... though the BDUs did look cool).

I dont recall them having issues "marketing" the show to women before S9-S10 (seem to be a lot at cons), but I guess thats because word of mouth brought in the fans and that was before they started being insulting to the women.

*EDIT: I actually dont think most of the MALEs who watch Stargate or Scifi in general do it for the sex-symbols either....for the same reason. If they want "sexy" there are far far FAR better shows that pander to it then Stargate or any scifi.

Market the show on the basis of sexiness? Good grief, no.

For a start you are relying on people finding the guys sexy, and secondly you rely on people not responding that the show must be shallow crap (and definitely not worthwhile sci-fi) if that's all it's about.

Sell me an interesting idea - pretty people are a bonus - to start me watching. Then demonstrate you know how to use that idea to get me to stick around.

I agree with AGF & smurf

[Gregorius]

Why not go back to the early days of SG-1 where they told good ole adventurous stories and treated the characters and fans with respect, write solid intelligent scripts with the touch of humour that they used to do. They could also try losing the juvenile schoolboy humour as it has an extremely limited appeal.

Pre-S7 Stargate, now that would be great. Back when the stories made sense and there was character development and continuity.

Oh Greg how innocent of you

Is this positive or negative?

- stand up for yourself and get fired is what usually happens because a lot of women have absolutely no support and no power and they just get fired. Standing up for yourself and playing hardball gets you labelled as a *itch and other nasty names too, a man does it and he is a master negotiator

So build support, organise other women and appeal to the self-interest of the men? Women of the past could make men go to war, so why can't modern women do such things? And why would someone care about what they are called, I don't understand that, why allow someone else to have power over you when they call you names?

[Gregorius]

Sell me an interesting idea - pretty people are a bonus - to start me watching. Then demonstrate you know how to use that idea to get me to stick around.

I concur. And if they start selling interesting ideas then perhaps telly gets interesting again too.

[suse]

Is this positive or negative?

<<Channels Kosh>> Yes.

suse

[scifithinker]

It's not that women can't write SciFi, it's that the marketing droids assume that the audience won't buy it because they reason that the audience will think it's a romance novel in space.

You can't really blame everything on the suits or gender, a lot of the problems mentioned here can be attributed to the marketing droids who whisper in the ears of the suits.

It's sad though.

DC (Dorthy) Fontana

That's the reason J.K. Rowling is just initials. Because boys don't want to read books by girls....

It's much better now, but only becaue the SF genre has been rewritten to include Fantasy/Paranormal as part of it. <<gag>>

<<eyeballs the list of writers/directors/producers for SG-1 and SGA.>> How many women are on that list again? <<sigh>>

suse

Suse made my point before I got to it. The assumption is that women will read/watch what is written by men, but not vice versa.

Give us interesting characters and storylines and we'll watch. The fact that RDA is gorgeous just helps.

Give us quality, and we'll watch. I don't want eye candy. I want strong plots and characterization. Blowing things up and showing cleavage/ bare male chests don't make up for the lack. Once if you've got the plot and characterization down, eye candy is a bonus.

I read a lot more SF than I do romances. Same for watching it on TV. But I have a novel idea. Why not include things in your show that will appeal to both genders and multiple age groups? There's a lot more to women than romance and a lot more to men than cleavage and explosions.

[smurf]

I read a lot more SF than I do romances. Same for watching it on TV. But I have a novel idea. Why not include things in your show that will appeal to both genders and multiple age groups? There's a lot more to women than romance and a lot more to men than cleavage and explosions.

Apart from interesting story-lines and characters, what things appeal to both genders and multiple age groups?
If the networks knew what they are then no show would ever fail, and no one would ever be surprised by the success of little shows like SG-1.

Looking above, even in a limited circle of "female sci-fi fans who love Stargate and post on Gateworld" there isn't complete agreement on what they want from a show.

Oh Greg how innocent of you - stand up for yourself and get fired is what usually happens because a lot of women have absolutely no support and no power and they just get fired. Standing up for yourself and playing hardball gets you labelled as a *itch and other nasty names too, a man does it and he is a master negotiator

So build support, organise other women and appeal to the self-interest of the men? Women of the past could make men go to war, so why can't modern women do such things? And why would someone care about what they are called, I don't understand that, why allow someone else to have power over you when they call you names?

What people prey on is a lack of confidence. Will you really get fired for standing up for yourself if you, or it, are worth standing up for? If you go into any situation fearing you'll get fired then you'll give off the signal that what you are saying isn't worth listening to.

I'm with Greg, why care about being called names for being a bit tough? Frankly, I'd rather be called a b*tch than an idiot, because it displays the impotence of the name caller. ie. either I'm too good for you to get rid of, or I'm your boss.

[Gregorius]

Apart from interesting story-lines and characters, what things appeal to both genders and multiple age groups?

Character development and continuity.

If the networks knew what they are then no show would ever fail, and no one would ever be surprised by the success of little shows like SG-1.

SG-1 was a succes when they combined the two things you named with the two things I named, the moment they let go of those things the show started to decline.

If a show takes those four things, and perhaps even an interesting concept, as its core then it will do well. If it starts to deviate from it in order to give a certain part of its fandom more attention (Ships are a prime example of this, as are the Xplosions people), then you'll see the fandom getting divided and people losing interest in the show because the core elements which everyone likes are gone.

As an example of a show which keeps true to its core and those four things I'd name Doctor Who. Sure the Doctor Who fandom has its disagreements but I don't see anti-S<X> people running there claiming the show should stop. Why not? Because the elements that are the show remain the same, it continues to have interesting and evolving characters, interesting storylines that fit within continuity.

Stargate had the same thing until S7 where things suddenly changed (Action Jackson for one). When they returned to the core of SG-1 in S8 people liked it, but S9 and S10 were so far away from what SG-1 stood for, what everyone liked, that people lost interest, mostly because it seems the writers started writing for one particular fan group (The Xplosions and the shippers).

Looking above, even in a limited circle of "female sci-fi fans who love Stargate and post on Gateworld" there isn't complete agreement on what they want from a show.

What they do agree on are the four things that are stated at the start of this post, so if the writers were to cater to that everyone would be happy.

What people prey on is a lack of confidence. Will you really get fired for standing up for yourself if you, or it, are worth standing up for? If you go into any situation fearing you'll get fired then you'll give off the signal that what you are saying isn't worth listening to.

*nods* You can "sense" someone lacking confidence. It's something in the posture of people that gives it away, well posture, vocal and speech patterns, etc...

It's actually a neat experiment to do: Go up to a person acting as if you're the king/queen and have the whole world behind you, and see how they respond to you. Then go to the same person a few days/weeks later and act as if you don't have confidence. You'll notice that you'll be treated differently.

I'm with Greg, why care about being called names for being a bit tough? Frankly, I'd rather be called a b*tch than an idiot, because it displays the impotence of the name caller. ie. either I'm too good for you to get rid of, or I'm your boss.

I have a supporter! Also, that's very good advice. Turning name-calling into personal compliments is the thing to do if you want to completely make the name-caller feel impotent, as you take away the power of the words away from him and transfer it to yourself.

Try it, if someone calls you a name simply say "Thank you" and you'll see that most people will be flabbergasted and back-off.

[smurf]

Character development and continuity.



SG-1 was a succes when they combined the two things you named with the two things I named, the moment they let go of those things the show started to decline.

If a show takes those four things, and perhaps even an interesting concept, as its core then it will do well. If it starts to deviate from it in order to give a certain part of its fandom more attention (Ships are a prime example of this, as are the Xplosions people), then you'll see the fandom getting divided and people losing interest in the show because the core elements which everyone likes are gone.

Spoiler:

As an example of a show which keeps true to its core and those four things I'd name Doctor Who. Sure the Doctor Who fandom has its disagreements but I don't see anti-S<X> people running there claiming the show should stop. Why not? Because the elements that are the show remain the same, it continues to have interesting and evolving characters, interesting storylines that fit within continuity.

Stargate had the same thing until S7 where things suddenly changed (Action Jackson for one). When they returned to the core of SG-1 in S8 people liked it, but S9 and S10 were so far away from what SG-1 stood for, what everyone liked, that people lost interest, mostly because it seems the writers started writing for one particular fan group (The Xplosions and the shippers).

What they do agree on are the four things that are stated at the start of this post, so if the writers were to cater to that everyone would be happy.

But these four things are the basic needs of every (serialized) story. They are not in themselves enough to get people watching.

Put another way, they are merely ingredients to make a cake, but you need to add other ingredients, and decisions, to make a successful cake. How, and how long, is it cooked. What type of cake. What decoration is added. It's these extras which determine which group of people you attract.

Of course the problem is that some people have a fixed idea that boys like cheesecake, or marzipan, or chocolate frosting, and if they don't make it that way then it won't sell. And since it now has chocolate frosting on it no girl will ever be interested in it.

This is obviously daft when you apply it to cakes, so why is there an absolute insistence on applying it to television?

*nods* You can "sense" someone lacking confidence. It's something in the posture of people that gives it away, well posture, vocal and speech patterns, etc...

It's actually a neat experiment to do: Go up to a person acting as if you're the king/queen and have the whole world behind you, and see how they respond to you. Then go to the same person a few days/weeks later and act as if you don't have confidence. You'll notice that you'll be treated differently.

Yes, that's why so many of these so called "celebrities" are fêted as if they famous for having actual skills.

It is amazing how you can change people's reactions simply by projecting a certain emotional state. I've been told I'm very calming when work is brought to me in a panic. I may internally be completely stressed by it, but by projecting a calm exterior I can normally make the other person less stressed, and my job less unnecessarily difficult.

I have a supporter!

You have! but that's only because I've heard there's cake and refreshments.

[Gregorius]

But these four things are the basic needs of every (serialized) story. They are not in themselves enough to get people watching.

I guess the fifth is "Interesting concept".

Put another way, they are merely ingredients to make a cake, but you need to add other ingredients, and decisions, to make a successful cake. How, and how long, is it cooked. What type of cake. What decoration is added. It's these extras which determine which group of people you attract.

Food analogy! Anyway, in other words: An interesting concept?

This is obviously daft when you apply it to cakes, so why is there an absolute insistence on applying it to television?

Because it's easy and requires not research. The thing is that if you imprint certain values on children such as "Boys like Xplosions" and "Girls like drama" you'll have an easy time in the future as the majority of both genders will believe it's an absolute truth. The minority that doesn't, well, it's irrelevant unless you can make huge profits from them.

The SciFi community is dominated by that small minority where they can get a lot of money because those people who watch SciFi are in general better educated and have more money than the average Joe.

Yes, that's why so many of these so called "celebrities" are fêted as if they famous for having actual skills.

*nods* In here Europe, or at least here in the Netherlands, most celebs don't have as much influence as they have in the US though, and most of them are educated.

I always found it utterly facinating how those celebs, without a proper education, can have such a huge influence in the US.

It is amazing how you can change people's reactions simply by projecting a certain emotional state.

Indeed. It's also really fun to test it in the field.

You have! but that's only because I've heard there's cake and refreshments.

Don't forget the Chocolate! And Soup!

[Skydiver]

I always found it utterly facinating how those celebs, without a proper education, can have such a huge influence in the US.

not just entertainment celebrities, but sports stars as well. To the point that - especially for high school and college athletes - they aren't in school to learn, it's to play the sport and earn the university and its coaches money...and, all too often, as soon as they are injured, they are dumped and dropped and end up uneducated has'beens.

And this happens because of the greed of your average coach/school president/principal, etc.

In the quest to have a winning team, these players barter their skills and abilities to make their fortune, they let themselves be used as much as someone is willing to use them.

And, just like entertainent celebrities, as soon as the blush is off the rose, they'll be dropped like a hot rock and forgotten

[suse]

not just entertainment celebrities, but sports stars as well. To the point that - especially for high school and college athletes - they aren't in school to learn, it's to play the sport and earn the university and its coaches money...and, all too often, as soon as they are injured, they are dumped and dropped and end up uneducated has'beens.

And this happens because of the greed of your average coach/school president/principal, etc.

In the quest to have a winning team, these players barter their skills and abilities to make their fortune, they let themselves be used as much as someone is willing to use them.

And, just like entertainent celebrities, as soon as the blush is off the rose, they'll be dropped like a hot rock and forgotten

And then there are those rare few that go in and use the system properly. Chris Judge played foodball in college, but took classes in what he was really interested in. And actually ended up making a living doing it.

Leland Melvin went to University of Richmond on a football scholarship (was a school 'hero' too) but majored in science. He went up in the shuttle Atlantis this past spring.

suse

[jckfan55]

And then there are those rare few that go in and use the system properly. Chris Judge played foodball in college, but took classes in what he was really interested in. And actually ended up making a living doing it.

Leland Melvin went to University of Richmond on a football scholarship (was a school 'hero' too) but majored in science. He went up in the shuttle Atlantis this past spring.

suse

good points. I hadn't heard of Leland Melvin. For as much as CJ likes to joke around, when you hear him talk seriously you certainly wouldn't accuse him of being a "dumb athlete"-- and look at the episodes he's written.

[smurf]

I guess the fifth is "Interesting concept".



Food analogy! Anyway, in other words: An interesting concept?

I should have typed "But these five things are the basic needs of every (serialized) story" because I can math rite gud.

Saying an interesting concept is no more helpful than saying interesting characters when asking for ways to appeal to (badly delineated) groups of people. What is an interesting concept which appeals to men, and women? Old and young?

An interesting concept to me is not always an interesting concept to other people, and vice versa. Otherwise there would be no rhyme nor reason for the existence of "Sex and the City".

Because it's easy and requires not research. The thing is that if you imprint certain values on children such as "Boys like Xplosions" and "Girls like drama" you'll have an easy time in the future as the majority of both genders will believe it's an absolute truth. The minority that doesn't, well, it's irrelevant unless you can make huge profits from them.

The SciFi community is dominated by that small minority where they can get a lot of money because those people who watch SciFi are in general better educated and have more money than the average Joe.

Good old social peer pressure.
For a wide ranging research you probably wouldn't get a completely accurate picture of what each individual grouping likes, because many people lie to conform to a stereotype (within reason), or repeat what already exists, when asked by random strangers.
Which is why most films and tv shows which have been heavily audience researched before release are not very good.

Of course that said, when looking at a much narrower sample like the sci-fi community it would do a company good to do a little bit of research. You can make more money by not ignorantly putting off a large portion of your possible clientèle.

Don't forget the Chocolate! And Soup!

Mood enhancement, and health benefits! Awesome.

not just entertainment celebrities, but sports stars as well. To the point that - especially for high school and college athletes - they aren't in school to learn, it's to play the sport and earn the university and its coaches money...and, all too often, as soon as they are injured, they are dumped and dropped and end up uneducated has'beens.

And this happens because of the greed of your average coach/school president/principal, etc.

In the quest to have a winning team, these players barter their skills and abilities to make their fortune, they let themselves be used as much as someone is willing to use them.

And, just like entertainent celebrities, as soon as the blush is off the rose, they'll be dropped like a hot rock and forgotten

OTOH, at least Sports celebrities have a discernible skill. So if kids were to follow them they would have to have achieved something in order to have fame, rather than only from the ability of appearing at every media event.

[Skydiver]

the downside, for every one like Chris or Leland, you have 100 more that just play hard, don't learn and end up uneducated people dependant only on how long thier bodies can withstand the abuse

[ses110]

AT could have been in every episode and it would not matter. Nothing stands in the way of of McKay and Shep screentime.