S10: Critique & Contemplation

[hisg1fans]

What I don't understand, is if they are aiming their show at the young male, then why all the viagara/cialis commercials

This is actually the one time the TV gods are marketing to the middle-aged women

[Jackie]

I'll clarify myself: Men buy those shiny new toys for the sake of showing off, to show to their friends that they have the resources to get it. The same really applies to whatever men do, it's all to show off and rise in stature and power. The ads merely exploit this hunger for power.

It's different for women. They have far more pressure from their peers, they are far more forced to conform.

Which is another way of saying, you are giving into peer pressure but instead of it being pressure to wear designer jeans it's pressure to have the biggest, baddest, TV.

Women also like to "out do" each other but with more wearables. Instead of showing off with shiny flat screen TV it's with designer clothing and make up! And here's a secret for you; girls do not dress up to attract men. They dress up because they compete with each other. Women know the only guy who will be looking at their outfit is the gay guy!

Women either buy designer clothing to show off money and power OR buy, or make mock designer clothing to show off wits.

Wits trump money and power every time. Girls love to brag about where they got their shirt from, how much they saved on price and how they love the color, ect.

Men or in most cases, over grown boys...who buy the shiny new toy do so for either statues symbol or play toy. My brother has a history or going through cars like normal people change underwear. This summer it's a 1984 corvette. It will certainly be gone by winter. He also bought a "big boy" dirt bike to cross country riding on. He's 40 and divorced...I call it mid life crises. The bike will be gone too!

with males and their 'need to have the shiniest toys', personally? i think it all boilds down to 'mine is bigger'...just in a way they can promote in public

as a female in a mostly male field, it's a fact of life that 'boys take care of boys'. If i called in sick of flaked off to the level that my male counterpart does, i'd be in trouble.. but he's a guy thus our manager, who's also male, will jsut accept it...largely cause teh manager is also a frequent user of his sick leave.

Oh yeah, guys like to cover for each other and compete with each other the same way girls do. Unfortunately, if you don't look like a movie star or knock dead model, you won't have them covering for you...unless you can be one of them. (meaning, you are such a tomboy, you are viewed as one of them). lol.

Now, if you are a good looking tomboy, you got it made! Because you become the "dream woman" who likes what they like, can hang with guys and still looks good.

If you are just a regular old tomboy, who doesn't have the advantage of looks, then you're still screwed. But, more than likely will find a few guys who will help you out rather than just a "mom" figure who works there.

Yep, being a stay at home mom certainly puts a whole new look on relationships.

[silly sally]

Which is another way of saying, you are giving into peer pressure but instead of it being pressure to wear designer jeans it's pressure to have the biggest, baddest, TV.

Women also like to "out do" each other but with more wearables. Instead of showing off with shiny flat screen TV it's with designer clothing and make up! And here's a secret for you; girls do not dress up to attract men. They dress up because they compete with each other. Women know the only guy who will be looking at their outfit is the gay guy!

Women either buy designer clothing to show off money and power OR buy, or make mock designer clothing to show off wits.

Wits trump money and power every time. Girls love to brag about where they got their shirt from, how much they saved on price and how they love the color, ect.

Men or in most cases, over grown boys...who buy the shiny new toy do so for either statues symbol or play toy. My brother has a history or going through cars like normal people change underwear. This summer it's a 1984 corvette. It will certainly be gone by winter. He also bought a "big boy" dirt bike to cross country riding on. He's 40 and divorced...I call it mid life crises. The bike will be gone too!




Oh yeah, guys like to cover for each other and compete with each other the same way girls do. Unfortunately, if you don't look like a movie star or knock dead model, you won't have them covering for you...unless you can be one of them. (meaning, you are such a tomboy, you are viewed as one of them). lol.

Now, if you are a good looking tomboy, you got it made! Because you become the "dream woman" who likes what they like, can hang with guys and still looks good.

If you are just a regular old tomboy, who doesn't have the advantage of looks, then you're still screwed. But, more than likely will find a few guys who will help you out rather than just a "mom" figure who works there.

Yep, being a stay at home mom certainly puts a whole new look on relationships.

Sky, Jackie what's with the OT-ness? Good looking tomboy=

[Fresh_Horse]

Hey Gregorius, love your posts but you seem to contradict yourself a couple of times and I don't mean your Greg vs. suit arguments.

I might've been wrong to call it a fact, but it's a general observation I, and many others including women, made. Women are more emotional than men, and that might be induced by society or hormones, it simply is that way at the present. And while it may be sexist to say this men tend to be more rational in matters, sometimes too rational, and tend to keep their emotions in check. And again I'm not saying either one's right but there are differences in how women and men reach their decisions and what they are allowing themselves to be influences by.

OK, gotcha, women are emotional, men are rational.

I said this as a suit, not as myself, but the reasoning behind it is this:
Women cave in more to peer pressure than men and they like shopping more. Not to mention women have to spend more money on their primary groceries, unless men have to buy feminine hygiene products etc.. And while men tend to buy more expensive things once in a while to tinker with, those are merely incidental purchages. Women on the other hand, as I said before, in general like shopping a lot more than men and thus are more likely to buy more goods, thus spending more money.

Um, "feminine hygiene products" is what? 10 bucks a month, if that!

Just remembered a small newspaper snippet from years ago. It was about the expenses that college students have.
According to it female students needed 5 % more money than their male counterparts to make up for make-up/clothes etc. This was an average number for students in my hometown.

If women buy new clothes because of peer pressure (can't show up in your same ole clothes all the time if you work with women) but men buy shiny new toys to brag to other men?

Where is the difference again?
"Hey look at this supercool thingamagic I got at Hypa-Electronics yesterday! Paid a fortune but it's worth it!"

"What do you think of my new skirt? Isn't it great? And it really wasn't that expensive."

If you take that into and also the general observation that men are more likely to get everything they're currently obsessing about (Men are willing to spend thousands of dollars on things like mint condition comics, cars, etc... It really takes a wife or a g/f to stop them from spending too much money), you get the impression it's easier to market the stuff for men, especially if you get their interest when they're young.

Hey, wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that obsessive (kind emotional, ain't it) men have to be reigned in by rational women when it comes to buying stuff?

What nobody ever seems to take into account is the expenses that men have to get women.
A woman can go out Friday night and pay nothing for their drinks (courtesy of some fool he thinks he's getting something in return) and barely spend 10 bucks cab fare.
A guy goes out Friday night and spends a fortune. Not only on his drinks but on the drinks he buys potential sex partners.
I won't even get into the "carne asada" men stuff themselves with once they've introduced enough beer into their system.

Does anyone really think the money guys spend on drinks/food on weekends isn't enough to equal any kind of money women spend on clothes/make-up?

Just the other week my colleague told me he spent 140 Euros on a drinking/partying binge with his buddy (who spent a similar amount).
If I drank beer for less than half that money I'd be in hospital.

Back to my argument that single, employed women have money to spare.
Whatever money I have left after buying food I spent on whatever I want.
Could be clothes (gameworn hockey jerseys count as "clothes", don't they?), could be DVDs, could be a shiny new DVD recorder or it could be an expensive bike that I ride twice a month.

It's true that I would not by a DVD recorder, an expensive bike and a gameworn hockey jersey all at once (although, depending on the jersey, I *might*) but if I want something and can afford it I usually buy it.

The worst part about this whole mess is that TV execs not only screw up shows, they totally fail to realize that those companies who pay for commercials would love to find out that a growing number of women (with money to blow) love science fiction.
Put your advertising money *here*!

friggin' fools

[Gregorius]

And having to have the latest gadgets, the need to show off, isn't conforming to a social expectation? Men may exhibit differently, but they're just as subject to peer pressure as women. They call it different things - face, respect, whatever - but it's still about being accepted by your peers.

I'm man enough to realise I'm wrong. I admit defeat in this matter.

with males and their 'need to have the shiniest toys', personally? i think it all boilds down to 'mine is bigger'...just in a way they can promote in public

Yes, it does. Although the "mine" in this case is ego.

[quote[as a female in a mostly male field, it's a fact of life that 'boys take care of boys'. If i called in sick of flaked off to the level that my male counterpart does, i'd be in trouble.. but he's a guy thus our manager, who's also male, will jsut accept it...largely cause teh manager is also a frequent user of his sick leave.[/QUOTE]

It's that bad? I've heard women complain about that before and especially about the "Old boys networks" but this, I'm amazed, well not as much amazed as I'm curious as to why women allow this to happen and don't take action?

Which is another way of saying, you are giving into peer pressure but instead of it being pressure to wear designer jeans it's pressure to have the biggest, baddest, TV.

Again, I admit defeat.

Women also like to "out do" each other but with more wearables. Instead of showing off with shiny flat screen TV it's with designer clothing and make up! And here's a secret for you; girls do not dress up to attract men. They dress up because they compete with each other. Women know the only guy who will be looking at their outfit is the gay guy!

I already knew that "secret", it's rather obvious, well it was obvious to me, when you see two women who're dressed the same at a party and glare at one another all night long (If one doesn't leave to change that is). Also, listening to women gives one big clues in that direction.

Men or in most cases, over grown boys...who buy the shiny new toy do so for either statues symbol or play toy. My brother has a history or going through cars like normal people change underwear. This summer it's a 1984 corvette. It will certainly be gone by winter. He also bought a "big boy" dirt bike to cross country riding on. He's 40 and divorced...I call it mid life crises. The bike will be gone too!

You're absolutely right. Men are over grown boys, it's why a lot of women here, and I guess abroad too, tell one another, or angrily their spouse, that men never leave puberty and never grow up.

Also, dirt bikes are cool. Although regular motorcycles are way cooler, especially the ones they race with.

Oh yeah, guys like to cover for each other and compete with each other the same way girls do. Unfortunately, if you don't look like a movie star or knock dead model, you won't have them covering for you...unless you can be one of them. (meaning, you are such a tomboy, you are viewed as one of them). lol.

Well, movie stars and models are symbols of power aren't they. Also, men like to show off their girlfriends and their connections, that's why they won't drop those people, well unless they've fallen out of grace and knowing them does more damage than leaving them.

Anyways, tomboys play the game men play amongst one another, it's why they seem to always get the better stuff. Take for example golf, many women don't like the game so they either don't get asked to join or decline the offer. A tomboy ensures she gets asked and joins the men on the tracks (Or is it course?). Now where are the deals made? They are made during golf games and then are brought into the boardroom to be discussed by the lawyers and the board of directors.

By joining the men the tomboy gets the chance to build a large network of powerful men who'll treat her as "one of the boys" because she acts that way. In essence, she's merely playing the game men play and by doing so she gets access to resources most other women don't have.

The same thing applies to men going into a female dominated world, they either have to adapt and play the female game or they, well, get stuck and have to work thrice as hard as anyone else to get somewhere.


Anyway, I think my point still stands though: Men are easier to market for. Make toys shiny and expensive enough and most men'll buy it.

And out of curiosity, how would one market Stargate (or any other show) to women?

[Gregorius]

Hey Gregorius, love your posts but you seem to contradict yourself a couple of times and I don't mean your Greg vs. suit arguments.

Thank you for pointing that out. Greg is here to learn. ^^ Also, I already admitted defeat on the whole peer pressure thing, although I still think women are under a lot more pressure than men.

OK, gotcha, women are emotional, men are rational.

Not entirely. Women take emotions more into account then men, and I should be clearer on that: Women are more empathic than men are.

Um, "feminine hygiene products" is what? 10 bucks a month, if that!

I wouldn't know. I don't have to buy it and I won't do it either should I have to buy it for a g/f as I probably wouldn't be able to resist the urge to ask as female shop attendant for the blue liquid and which one she's think would be best when comparing price to quality.

Just remembered a small newspaper snippet from years ago. It was about the expenses that college students have.
According to it female students needed 5 % more money than their male counterparts to make up for make-up/clothes etc. This was an average number for students in my hometown.

hmm, I think I can explain the 5% away not with clothes but with a healthier diet. Women eat healthier than men and healthy food costs a lot more.

If women buy new clothes because of peer pressure (can't show up in your same ole clothes all the time if you work with women) but men buy shiny new toys to brag to other men?

Where is the difference again?
"Hey look at this supercool thingamagic I got at Hypa-Electronics yesterday! Paid a fortune but it's worth it!"

"What do you think of my new skirt? Isn't it great? And it really wasn't that expensive."

Good point, and again I admit defeat. Although it seems men buy shiny new toys less often than women buy new clothes or shoes.

Hey, wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that obsessive (kind emotional, ain't it) men have to be reigned in by rational women when it comes to buying stuff?

Yes. There is a saying that goes some like this: Men will pay $2 for a $1 item if they want to have it. Women pay $1 for a $2 item which they don't need.

What nobody ever seems to take into account is the expenses that men have to get women.

They have?

A woman can go out Friday night and pay nothing for their drinks (courtesy of some fool he thinks he's getting something in return) and barely spend 10 bucks cab fare.

*nods* I'm happy to report though that I don't buy people drinks, as I usually get bought drinks for (It's interesting that refusing to buy a woman a drink and saying she should offer you one usually results in a free drink and/or a conversation. Although since I drink water mostly it doesn't cost anyone money ).

A guy goes out Friday night and spends a fortune. Not only on his drinks but on the drinks he buys potential sex partners.
I won't even get into the "carne asada" men stuff themselves with once they've introduced enough beer into their system.

"Carne Asada"? Also, you're absolutely right. And although it's sad seeing people spend so much money and getting nothing return, it's funny though.

Does anyone really think the money guys spend on drinks/food on weekends isn't enough to equal any kind of money women spend on clothes/make-up?

It isn't. A typical evening will cost $20 ~ $50, and cheaper if you're out with friends and take rounds buying drinks, which is cheap compared to the ouragious pricetags they put on clothes these days.

[Jackie]

Anyway, I think my point still stands though: Men are easier to market for. Make toys shiny and expensive enough and most men'll buy it.

And out of curiosity, how would one market Stargate (or any other show) to women?

Finally someone has asked the golden question!

The answer is simple. RDA on everything!

Many female fans watched stargate becuase it had RDA in it. McGyver in Stargate was cool.

Market RDA and MS as sex symbols and you got it made.

I walk into the grocery store and I am walking down the cookie isle. I have choices galore but my daughter goes right for the bright colored package with m&m's on it.

If they had stargate cookies with RDA or MS on the box I am sure I could pass that off as my daughter's show and buy the cookie. Fall asleep comfortably every night after having my stargate cookie and gazing upon RDA's face. Ooh, lala land.

Stargate pot holders? Hmm, maybe too geeky but I could buy them for hubby.

Women like to buy for themselves stuff that is taboo...but since we're expected to buy for other's first, we just like to make you all think that's the motive.

[Skydiver]

It's that bad? I've heard women complain about that before and especially about the "Old boys networks" but this, I'm amazed, well not as much amazed as I'm curious as to why women allow this to happen and don't take action?

how?

how do you fight the 'good old boys' network, when the power is in the hands of men who see nothing wrong with 'female in thy place'?

When the power is in the hands of the people that benefit from the current set up, nothing changes. And they do all they can to stay in power, hence the furthering of the good old boys network.

Heck, cameron mitchell is a prime example. Not one of the writers apparently questioned the better experienced female stepping down to be subordinate to the very much lesser qualified male. In fact, it was seen as normal.

now, as i've said before, had Samuel Carter, an african american officer transfered out then back to be put under the command of cameron mitchell, a white man with 8 years LESS experience (and less time in grade) they wouldn't have done it because the racism would have smacked them and they wouldn't have dared do it

but sexism is so pervasive that it's seen as normal.

then have the people in power supporting it (heck, even bonnie hammer sees scifi fans as nothing more than hormanal boys living in mama's basement) and it won't change. It's beyond an uphill battle because while it may be PC to say 'equality despite race' it's NOT PC to say 'female rights' because that gets turned into 'feminist militant'

When minorities fight for equality it's a 'good' fight, but when females do, they're subverting nature and are simply wrong and should go home and stay with the kids

[Skydiver]

not just RDA and MS and CJ on everything, publicize sam carter as an officer adn a good member of the USAF. NOT a sex object. Not with her boobs photoshopped to a D cup, just as sam carter, inteligent officer in the armed forces.

[silly sally]

not just RDA and MS and CJ on everything, publicize sam carter as an officer adn a good member of the USAF. NOT a sex object. Not with her boobs photoshopped to a D cup, just as sam carter, inteligent officer in the armed forces.

What? She isn't a D cup?
Now seriously, I was annoyed with Cam getting command of SG-1, but heck if Amanda didn't say anything... *shrug*

[Silverwings]

not just RDA and MS and CJ on everything, publicize sam carter as an officer adn a good member of the USAF. NOT a sex object. Not with her boobs photoshopped to a D cup, just as sam carter, inteligent officer in the armed forces.

In other words, market to the higher aspirations of life, not pander to the sexual base desires. I wholeheartedly agree.

I'm not optimistic about it happening, but that's the way it should be.

[Gregorius]

Finally someone has asked the golden question!

Is it going to make me rich?

{snip}

So if I summarize it all it's: "Make it something women can pass off as buying for other people"?

how?

Play their game, call the boss on his hypocrisy (It's even better to subtly hint it at him). It's what most men would do. It's the same as with salary negotiations when being hired: Women earn less than men in the same position, well they do here, and the reason, it's been researched, is that the women don't play "hard ball". A guy will go to the person hiring him and will try to get a higher salary by asking for it and/or pretending other companies are interested in him (He'll usually get it), while most women don't even ask for those things or ask far too little.

It even works in a normal situation, hint at your bosses that other companies are interested in you and are willing to pay you a lot more, but also tell them that you're interested to stay at the company because you like it if they are willing to make you a counter offer. If you're a valued employee they'll get you on higher pay scales etc...

how do you fight the 'good old boys' network, when the power is in the hands of men who see nothing wrong with 'female in thy place'?

When the power is in the hands of the people that benefit from the current set up, nothing changes. And they do all they can to stay in power, hence the furthering of the good old boys network.

Simply, appeal to a higher power. Here women were fed up with the old boys networks at the universities and they went to the politicians. The moment they got involved the old boys started hiring more women and appointing more women as professors just to prevent the politicians from meddling in their affairs (It failed though, there are proposals to have an X% of professors being female being discussed).

but sexism is so pervasive that it's seen as normal.

Not only that, but women don't stand up enough for themselves. I thinkthat women, in general, aren't as egoistic and self-centered as men, which leads to nothing changing. If women were to be a bit more focussed on their own personal benefits instead of sacrificing themselves for others and called men more on their bluffs they'd get a lot more things done.

When minorities fight for equality it's a 'good' fight, but when females do, they're subverting nature and are simply wrong and should go home and stay with the kids

So why listen to the critism? Ignore it and continue with the fight, you have nothing to lose and can gain only.

The things you mentioned are mere bluff by men testing to see if you have the guts to stand up for yourselves and call them on it, and in the case of women in power it's because you're a threat to them.

I talked about this some time ago with a few other people and we reached the conclusion that women don't know how to play out the power they have. They gain an advantage or a victory but fail to capitalize on it and return close to the starting point.

not just RDA and MS and CJ on everything, publicize sam carter as an officer adn a good member of the USAF. NOT a sex object. Not with her boobs photoshopped to a D cup, just as sam carter, inteligent officer in the armed forces.

Fun fact: 97% of all female models in advertisements have been digitally altered, compared to, I believe, 3 ~ 10% of male models.

[jckfan55]

not just RDA and MS and CJ on everything, publicize sam carter as an officer adn a good member of the USAF. NOT a sex object. Not with her boobs photoshopped to a D cup, just as sam carter, inteligent officer in the armed forces.

Give us interesting characters and storylines and we'll watch. The fact that RDA is gorgeous just helps.

[AGateFan]

Finally someone has asked the golden question!

The answer is simple. RDA on everything!

Many female fans watched stargate becuase it had RDA in it. McGyver in Stargate was cool.

Market RDA and MS as sex symbols and you got it made.

I walk into the grocery store and I am walking down the cookie isle. I have choices galore but my daughter goes right for the bright colored package with m&m's on it.

If they had stargate cookies with RDA or MS on the box I am sure I could pass that off as my daughter's show and buy the cookie. Fall asleep comfortably every night after having my stargate cookie and gazing upon RDA's face. Ooh, lala land.

Stargate pot holders? Hmm, maybe too geeky but I could buy them for hubby.

Women like to buy for themselves stuff that is taboo...but since we're expected to buy for other's first, we just like to make you all think that's the motive.

I think thats excactly the wrong thing to do.
I dont think women who watch stargate or scifi in general are doing it for the sex-symbols*. There is plenty of mindless TV for that, and thats what they watch a lot of the reality TV for. I think they watched shows like Stargate because ALL the characters, including male and female were treated equally and seemed to have a lot of fun saving the world.

I would market it as they did in the past, as a fun action adventure with an intelligent and cool cast (ALL of them) in the coolest gear (aka not the "sexy" gear.... but I understand if they compromise and go with the greens as opposed to the baggier BDU's... though the BDUs did look cool).

I dont recall them having issues "marketing" the show to women before S9-S10 (seem to be a lot at cons), but I guess thats because word of mouth brought in the fans and that was before they started being insulting to the women.

*EDIT: I actually dont think most of the MALEs who watch Stargate or Scifi in general do it for the sex-symbols either....for the same reason. If they want "sexy" there are far far FAR better shows that pander to it then Stargate or any scifi.

[smurf]

Market the show on the basis of sexiness? Good grief, no.

For a start you are relying on people finding the guys sexy, and secondly you rely on people not responding that the show must be shallow crap (and definitely not worthwhile sci-fi) if that's all it's about.

Sell me an interesting idea - pretty people are a bonus - to start me watching. Then demonstrate you know how to use that idea to get me to stick around.