S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Silverwings]

Haha. The Road Not Taken. But I'm sure you knew that

Actually, I had forgotten the acronym, but I knew you meant an episode. I just couldn't pass up an alternate interpretation.

[Fresh_Horse]

See, that could have worked. He got the job because of connections--my Uncle the Senator or something, but Cam isn't really a bad guy, and then learns from the best and earns his place on the team.
They still could have used the "enthusiasm" they wanted for Mitchell, but done it a hair more realistically.
It all goes back to the idea of the networks that the guy has to be the leader b/c guys won't accept a female leader.

(I find it interesting that my young nephew has just started watching Voyager and his favorite character is Captain Janeway. Networks would probably say, ah, but he's not a teenager yet.)

Anyone wonder how many decades have to go by until the suits notice that their dems are wrong and that science fiction is loved by people of both sexes ?

It's not just teenage boys. What about the - highly interesting demographic group of - 25 to 40 year old women with a college degree and well paid jobs?

Look here, you suits, I don't have to ask my mom for money to buy things.

[Jackie]

Anyone wonder how many decades have to go by until the suits notice that their dems are wrong and that science fiction is loved by people of both sexes ?

It's not just teenage boys. What about the - highly interesting demographic group of - 25 to 40 year old women with a college degree and well paid jobs?

Look here, you suits, I don't have to ask my mom for money to buy things.

not just sci-fi channel but the whole genre. in some cases, sci-fi writers have been forced to use male pen names to sell their stuff...cause "everyone knows women can't write sci-fi".

[Gregorius]

See, that could have worked. He got the job because of connections--my Uncle the Senator or something, but Cam isn't really a bad guy, and then learns from the best and earns his place on the team.

Uncle Kinsey would've been a good choice. It would make Mitchell realise he was just a pawn of his uncle's and the rest of the team would resent him because Kinsey made sure he was picked. He's have to work twice as hard to proof himself as anyone else would've to do.

It all goes back to the idea of the networks that the guy has to be the leader b/c guys won't accept a female leader.

That statement is kinda true. Most men have a problem accepting a female leader. I think it has something to do with charisma, not understanding how a female reaches conclusions and the sad fact that most women have trouble keeping their personal feelings out of decisions (When women in charge have a conflict with a person they tend to sabotage that person at every turn, while men are more of the "I don't like you but we have to work together" attitude).

Not that I mind though, I find it utterly amusing to figure out how a woman reaches her conclusions (It's very, very different from how a man reaches his conclusions), and am amazed by how vicious women can be to one another.

Anyone wonder how many decades have to go by until the suits notice that their dems are wrong and that science fiction is loved by people of both sexes ?

I'm going to play the devil's advocate, so don't start negging me because I might sound mysogynistic or cold and heartless, I'm merely going to state what the arguments are if you're a suit and see statistics:

Depends. The thing is that men are more likely to get obsessed and buy everything there is of the series, they are more willing to spend money on it (See Star Trek, Star Wars, D&D, etc..). Plus, they don't have to spend money on a lot of things so they can spend all their money on the products we want to sell.

It's not just teenage boys. What about the - highly interesting demographic group of - 25 to 40 year old women with a college degree and well paid jobs?

Surely those wouldn't buy the videogame, manuals, the trading cards, etc.. They'd go to conventions and buy the DVDs. Plus they need to spend money on shoes, clothing, make-up, etc...

Not to mention they have a high chance of having a child wish and getting kocked up. The moment they're knocked up and have delivered the child, the child will take up a lot of their time, reduce their ability to go to conventions and they'd have even less money to spend.

Not the perfect demographic.

Look here, you suits, I don't have to ask my mom for money to buy things.

No, you don't. But you do have less money to spend than male in an equivalent position as you spend a lot more money on make-up, shoes, clothing, etc.. than a male does.

And now back to regular Greg:

The thing is that the suits are from the ST and SW era and simply have the idea in their head that the teenage guy is the ideal demographic for SF as it was back then.

So to answer your question: It'll probably take a generation or two and more females in charge to start catering to other demographics.

[Gregorius]

not just sci-fi channel but the whole genre. in some cases, sci-fi writers have been forced to use male pen names to sell their stuff...cause "everyone knows women can't write sci-fi".

It's not that women can't write SciFi, it's that the marketing droids assume that the audience won't buy it because they reason that the audience will think it's a romance novel in space.

You can't really blame everything on the suits or gender, a lot of the problems mentioned here can be attributed to the marketing droids who whisper in the ears of the suits.

It's sad though.

[Silverwings]

The sad thing is that marketing droids and beancounting suits don't apply critical thinking, they just number crunch and play with statistics in a vain effort to understand reality.

First, numbers can lie. (This, coming from a numbers geek.) They are incomplete and heavily reliant on data gathering methods, which are inevitably flawed. Statistics presume omniscience regarding the relevance of the data or the irrelevance of influencing factors, and simply, humans are not omniscient.

Second, they are not leading indicators, they are lagging data. By the time any reasonable conclusions can be formed from the (flawed) data, it's usually too late to act intelligently on it.

Third, since it's easier to grok numbers than psychology, the data is at best a caricature of the audience, and more akin to generalization than comprehension.

Fourth, analysis is often self-fulfilling (which ties into inept data gathering). If you're asking the wrong questions and leading the analysis, it's going to be flawed.

Fifth, producers and writers create what they find interesting, instead of trying to understand the audience. Catering to an audience can make for bland art, true, but there needs to be a middle ground, or it's just expensive (not necessarily quality) fan fiction. Number crunching doesn't quantify this very well, so it gets ignored.

Sixth, any moral or ethical concerns are ignored by the numbers. As such, the lowest common denominator, or even the "aim for the gutter" and "shock value" techniques gain prominence, as they generate short-term spikes in interest. Short term excitement is often emphasized over long-term viability. (Which could lead into a nice long diatribe about politics and economics, but I've written too much already.)

[Jackie]

The sad thing is that marketing droids and beancounting suits don't apply critical thinking, they just number crunch and play with statistics in a vain effort to understand reality.

First, numbers can lie. (This, coming from a numbers geek.) They are incomplete and heavily reliant on data gathering methods, which are inevitably flawed. Statistics presume omniscience regarding the relevance of the data or the irrelevance of influencing factors, and simply, humans are not omniscient.

Second, they are not leading indicators, they are lagging data. By the time any reasonable conclusions can be formed from the (flawed) data, it's usually too late to act intelligently on it.

Third, since it's easier to grok numbers than psychology, the data is at best a caricature of the audience, and more akin to generalization than comprehension.

Fourth, analysis is often self-fulfilling (which ties into inept data gathering). If you're asking the wrong questions and leading the analysis, it's going to be flawed.

Fifth, producers and writers create what they find interesting, instead of trying to understand the audience. Catering to an audience can make for bland art, true, but there needs to be a middle ground, or it's just expensive (not necessarily quality) fan fiction. Number crunching doesn't quantify this very well, so it gets ignored.

Sixth, any moral or ethical concerns are ignored by the numbers. As such, the lowest common denominator, or even the "aim for the gutter" and "shock value" techniques gain prominence, as they generate short-term spikes in interest. Short term excitement is often emphasized over long-term viability. (Which could lead into a nice long diatribe about politics and economics, but I've written too much already.)

makes you wonder just how accurate the ratings are.

Marketing also targets certain demographic for the "sales" that are not just dvds and box set but also for those who are "collectors" and will but action figures, toys, coffee cups, t-shirts, ect.

In sci-fi the target demographic is young males who would buy the toys and marketing goods. The reason the marketing is not aimed at females is because...."everyone knows girls only buy make up and cloths."

The marketing centers around goods, not the actual show or movie.

I am actually rather amazed there isn't a stargate lunch box for the kids in school. Especially from the later years.

[Gregorius]

makes you wonder just how accurate the ratings are.

They aren't. It's like those annoying "researches", if you can call them that, where they take a subset of 1200 or less people and then extrapolate the results to the entire population.

The reason the marketing is not aimed at females is because...."everyone knows girls only buy make up and cloths."

Don't forget peer pressure. From what I heard peer pressure is a lot bigger of a factor with women than it is with men. If the queen bee doesn't buy something then most others won't either because they fear being cast out.

The marketing centers around goods, not the actual show or movie.

Exactly.

[jckfan55]

There's still a sense out there that SF is only for geeks. Hence the buildup of BSG as a "drama" not scifi to make it more "acceptable." Personally I didn't find BSG all that good--it was maybe trying too hard to be serious. SG S9 &10 tried too hard in the other direction, imho.

[Jackie]

They aren't. It's like those annoying "researches", if you can call them that, where they take a subset of 1200 or less people and then extrapolate the results to the entire population.

Don't forget peer pressure. From what I heard peer pressure is a lot bigger of a factor with women than it is with men. If the queen bee doesn't buy something then most others won't either because they fear being cast out.

I never understood how a cross sample of a 1000 people could equal over a million.

Girls are the worst when it comes to peer pressure. Guys aren't all that judgmental...unless they are looking for sex. When it comes to clothes, style, make up, ect...girls are the worst. (I've always been an outcast, so it never really mattered to me.)

I have found that "mature males" (not meaning age) usually want a woman who can be their best friend, likes what they like, and cooks better than mom. Once you get that...clothing and style doesn't matter. Especially if you like whatever sport they like.

There's still a sense out there that SF is only for geeks. Hence the buildup of BSG as a "drama" not scifi to make it more "acceptable." Personally I didn't find BSG all that good--it was maybe trying too hard to be serious. SG S9 &10 tried too hard in the other direction, imho.

BSG did okay for the first half of season 1. It had a nice build up of tension, action, drama...little heavy on baltar and 6 scenes though.

I lost interest after season 1 ended. Got too out of the norm even for a geek like me.

[Gregorius]

I never understood how a cross sample of a 1000 people could equal over a million.

I think it has to do with the bell curve and extrapolations. You pick 1000 people who represent the population and the results you get will give you a bell curve. This curve can then be applied to the whole of the population.

But since people aren't machines (In Engineering it's common practice to scale things down, test and work out how it will affect the real thing), it's always uncertain as Silverwings already stated.

So when looked at objectively you can't say that 1,000 people will accurately predict for 1,000,000 people as it's an approximation and you'll get rounding errors. Not to mention that it all depends on how accurate your cross section is.

Next part is off-topic and thus hidden:

Spoiler:

Girls are the worst when it comes to peer pressure.

*nods* What's even more amazing is the personality changes girls can go through when they're alone without their peers (Shallow can suddenly become deep) or when they get a b/f or male friend who dares to stand up against the queen bee. (Which usually results in her becoming the queen bee Women social dynamics is far more interesting and complex than that of men).

Guys aren't all that judgmental...unless they are looking for sex.

Correct, although it depends on the girl. I've seen some girls getting picked up because they had the potential to be hot while the hot girls where left standing.

When it comes to clothes, style, make up, ect...girls are the worst. (I've always been an outcast, so it never really mattered to me.)

That's absolutely true. I've talked to women who wanted to do something but wouldn't do it because they feared how their friends would think (And it takes a lot of talking to break through that fear).

[RealmOfX]

Uncle Kinsey would've been a good choice. It would make Mitchell realise he was just a pawn of his uncle's and the rest of the team would resent him because Kinsey made sure he was picked. He's have to work twice as hard to proof himself as anyone else would've to do.



That statement is kinda true. Most men have a problem accepting a female leader. I think it has something to do with charisma, not understanding how a female reaches conclusions and the sad fact that most women have trouble keeping their personal feelings out of decisions (When women in charge have a conflict with a person they tend to sabotage that person at every turn, while men are more of the "I don't like you but we have to work together" attitude).

Not that I mind though, I find it utterly amusing to figure out how a woman reaches her conclusions (It's very, very different from how a man reaches his conclusions), and am amazed by how vicious women can be to one another.



I'm going to play the devil's advocate, so don't start negging me because I might sound mysogynistic or cold and heartless, I'm merely going to state what the arguments are if you're a suit and see statistics:

Depends. The thing is that men are more likely to get obsessed and buy everything there is of the series, they are more willing to spend money on it (See Star Trek, Star Wars, D&D, etc..). Plus, they don't have to spend money on a lot of things so they can spend all their money on the products we want to sell.



Surely those wouldn't buy the videogame, manuals, the trading cards, etc.. They'd go to conventions and buy the DVDs. Plus they need to spend money on shoes, clothing, make-up, etc...

Not to mention they have a high chance of having a child wish and getting kocked up. The moment they're knocked up and have delivered the child, the child will take up a lot of their time, reduce their ability to go to conventions and they'd have even less money to spend.

Not the perfect demographic.



No, you don't. But you do have less money to spend than male in an equivalent position as you spend a lot more money on make-up, shoes, clothing, etc.. than a male does.

And now back to regular Greg:

The thing is that the suits are from the ST and SW era and simply have the idea in their head that the teenage guy is the ideal demographic for SF as it was back then.

So to answer your question: It'll probably take a generation or two and more females in charge to start catering to other demographics.

Actually Greg I find your post has some classics examples of inherent sexism that is a problem within the entertainment industry and the world population at large. And no I'm not accusing you of misogyny, you raised a couple of good points but you also demonstrated a flaw that enables sexism to persist.

Take this classic for example - "and the sad fact that most women have trouble keeping their personal feelings out of decisions (When women in charge have a conflict with a person they tend to sabotage that person at every turn, while men are more of the "I don't like you but we have to work together" attitude). " or this one "No, you don't. But you do have less money to spend than male in an equivalent position as you spend a lot more money on make-up, shoes, clothing, etc.. than a male does."

The willingness to accept this as FACT and apply it across the board is where the sexism comes in and it is something that BOTH genders do BTW. It isn't a fact, though I can come up with personal examples to both support and contradict the supposed "fact".



One of the basic problems is that the people in the entertainment and advertising industries have a tendency to believe their own press and come up with Truisms that may not necessarily pertain to their selected audiences.



I'd really love to see some stats on actual spending over the decades broken down by age, sex, genre related etc and see how close the perceived model is to the actual - but I've got no chance of that because I don't think anyone has done any truely comprehensive and objective stats gathering. I participate in a wide range of online surveys and occasional face to face ones and I am constantly amazed at how badly a large percentage of them are put together and are consciously or unconsciously skewed towards giving a certain result.

[Rogue]

not just sci-fi channel but the whole genre. in some cases, sci-fi writers have been forced to use male pen names to sell their stuff...cause "everyone knows women can't write sci-fi".

DC (Dorthy) Fontana

[hisg1fans]

I'd really love to see some stats on actual spending over the decades broken down by age, sex, genre related etc and see how close the perceived model is to the actual - but I've got no chance of that because I don't think anyone has done any truely comprehensive and objective stats gathering. I participate in a wide range of online surveys and occasional face to face ones and I am constantly amazed at how badly a large percentage of them are put together and are consciously or unconsciously skewed towards giving a certain result.

Good, solid research shows women spend 90% of all the money in the world. They are the ones who buy food, clothes, gifts, and other necessities for the family. Plus, they are usually in 'procurement' jobs in business.

Tom Peters (In Search of Excellence) talks about this a lot. He doesn't understand it either, but he says very little marketing is directed toward women, when the vast majority of it should be aimed precisely at women.

As for Season 10 aiming at a demographic? I don't know. When SG1 started, I watched with just about every single demographic there is. We had all ages, sexes, educational levels, races, languages, policital sides, etc. present and everybody liked the show.

In S9 & 10, that big group dwindled quickly down to three middle-aged women who were hoping to see a glimpse of the greatness that was SG1. If we saw a glimmer, we would tell the others and they'd watch later. So, if the target demographic was young men, TPTB missed their target.

[Mandysg1]

What I don't understand, is if they are aiming their show at the young male, then why all the viagara/cialis commercials

Also those young males, are more likely saving up their money to buy the most expensive video games/ consols, and you know they can't wait to get it; even if it means standing in line, in the winter over night waiting for the store to open (doubt you'd see many women over 30 in those lines )