S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Rogue]

I don't think the reason is what you think it is.

I'm not sure Carter's moving to Atlantis has been particularly positive for the actress or the character. She's still #2 in the credits and, if anything, Carter has even less to do on screen than she did on SG-1.

It's not clear to me, based on what I've seen, that it's really any better than Season 10 or the current movie.

I agree with ya. I liked her intro but lately she is either wallpapered or missing in action. If I didn't know better I would have thought Shep and Rodney are in charge of Atlantis.

[jckfan55]

You know, I'd thought for months that we were giving Cooper too much of a hard time, that it couldn't *all* be him. Now I'm not so sure. That interview Brad gave when they were filming AoT where he mentions he and RDA shared the same sensibilities and it being the small stuff that can make a show screams common sense. Then we have S9. And by extension S10 and (apparently - I've not seen it) AoT goes the same way.



suse

I know in interviews BW did talk about how important character was. That unless you care about the characters who cares? That's certainly my perspective. I never watched SG1 for the explosions, though I like action as much as the next person.
On one of the episode threads for an old season ep (don't remember which one or who posted) someone commented that he (i'm pretty sure) used to not like a certain episode (non-actiony) but in the years since had gotten a bit older and wasn't as drawn to explosions etc and really found the story interesting. I thought that was a great comment.

[jckfan55]

Chill out???? Why? I haven't even got up on my soapbox yet
(and I don't intend to)

Anyone who has been around GW for a while knows that I am a reformed WSL'er (check out the old Who Should Lead thread) and there's nothing that gets me more hot under the collar than portraying a supposed good officer as a git. Especially when they put the git in charge over every other qualified and available and trained and experienced officer in the SGC in direct contradiction of plain logic and common sense and established canon.


As for the inherent sexism that seemed to arrive with the advent of RCC becoming a showrunner, well I'll leave that for another day as it's way past my bedtime.

Reformed? I'm not reformed. HEck, I could have accepted Reynolds (grudgingly) as at least he had experience and was somewhat senior to Carter based on time in rank. the whole leadership thing was symptomatic of the whole fiasco of S9 & 10, imho.

[Jackie]

Boy has this thread picked up speed.

Was 'Farscape' more popular or longer-lasting that 'Stargate: SG-1'?

What on Earth could possibly have made the Stargate PTB think that the fans of their show would rather see the actors from another show promoted ahead of the actors they had been watching on SG-1 for eight years?

Sometimes I doubt tptb really care about the fans anymore. After I found out tptb wanted BB to star as sheppard but he wasn't available at the time, I got the impression the role of mitchell was made just for Ben and they didn't think anyone would have a problem with the character because everyone loves ben (I do love ya ben) and no one would care that he never saw the gate before. It was all part of their "get to know mitchell campaign" from season 9. Kind of backfired when Sam lost command in the show. Then again--they even admitted they didn't know what to do with Sam after Vala came on board.

I am surprised he didn't walkin in with a red cape and "S" on his chest.

The bowing down to Mitchells greatness in his intro turned me off on the character.

it was a major turn off. IMO it was a haphazard attempt to place the character in the same ballpark as Jack. But Mitchell is minor league when Jack was in the majors.

I agree with ya. I liked her intro but lately she is either wallpapered or missing in action. If I didn't know better I would have thought Shep and Rodney are in charge of Atlantis.

I would have to agree that shep and mckay are running Atlantis now. Part of the attempt to turn SGA into SG-1--not by bringing on the SG-1 actors--but by shoving shep team moments and shep/mckay banter, which is not as good as Daniel/Jack banter by any means, down our throat and try to establish the show as...are we even surprised?...a brand new show!

[astrogeologist]

Say what you will about Voyager--at least the captain was the captain. They didn't feel the need to give her a lame co-command.

True, even when the Voyager crew merged with the crew of the Val Jean, the captain of that ship didn't become co-commander of Voyager. He became Janeway's first officer.

People did accept a woman in charge for 7 years. And I think they would have accepted Sam in charge of 3 men too in S9 & 10 if RCC & maybe the network weren't Neanderthals. After all, we *knew* Sam as a capable officer.

I would say that the vast majority of the fans would have had no problems whatsoever accepting Sam in command in Seasons Nine and Ten - and if TPTB believed that there would be some who would object to a female commander, I would say that they had a moral responsibility to keep Sam in command and show that they weren't going to bow to sexism.

I couldn't agree more.

I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that there wasn't more outrage amongst the cast and crew and general fan base. Some folks just seemed to write the show off and wander away, others seem to say 'oh, well, it's no big deal', while others got what they wanted (a new SG-1, continuation of the show, expansion of Jackson's role into different areas, lack of O'Neill/RDA, and/or depression/demotion of Carter, etc).

Carter on SGA appears to me to be the only way of TPTB saying that Carter deserved a command. Not command of the show's main field unit (that goes to the lead alpha male), but some kind of recognized command that doesn't threaten (or interfere with) the lead alpha male. That they did it while removing Weir gave the whole thing a horribly bad taste. Who knows what they've (TPTB) have been planning for the past couple of years? Did they always plan to do that to Weir's character and were just waiting for the opportunity (they do like to prove that they can give ultimate danger to even the main characters... except Daniel, where they admit that dying for him is a joke... even MS rolls his eyes at it)? Who know what the behind the scenes motivations or plans were... but it sure doesn't make it look wonderful for Carter.

---------

I miss the competent, yet enthusiastic, Carter of Seasons 1-5. Would have loved to see her grow and evolve into the competent, yet compassionate, leader of SG-1.

I also miss the Daniel from Seasons 1-5. Compassionate and leading with his heart and his humanity. Would have loved to see him evolve into an Ambassorship position or some such. Something that allowed him the leeway to continue gate travel, and the meeting of new peoples and such.

------

People evolve, yes. And the characters did evolve through Seasons 6-8 (not always in directions that I liked, but at least I could see and understand the evolution). The jump in characterization between Seasons 1-8 vs. 9-10, however was jarring and insulting. The dissolution of The Team was one of the worst. Then to have the new lead alpha male whining about 'getting the team back together'. Absolutely horrible to think that anyone was supposed to feel beholden to the character that ripped it all apart.

[jckfan55]

And transparent attempts to get us to accept this new "team" by continually mentioning "team" (or Landry's nauseating reference to "family") were jarring and insulting. If they were truly a team we'd know it--they wouldn't have to say it.

The only time I can recall SG1 referring to the importance of "team" was in the ep right after Daniel ascended. "We were a *team,* Teal'c." Otherwise they just *lived it.*

[ReganX]

And transparent attempts to get us to accept this new "team" by continually mentioning "team" (or Landry's nauseating reference to "family") were jarring and insulting. If they were truly a team we'd know it--they wouldn't have to say it.

Truer words...

The only time I can recall SG1 referring to the importance of "team" was in the ep right after Daniel ascended. "We were a *team,* Teal'c." Otherwise they just *lived it.*

They showed, they didn't tell. We didn't need to hear Jack insist that Teal'c was his brother every other episode, we didn't need them to wear 'Best Friends 4Ever' T-shirts and we didn't need any subtle-as-a-sledgehammer "bonding" scenes like the one of the 'New Team' chummily playing basketball.

We knew they were a family, and for myself, and I think for a lot of us here, their connection as a team was a big part of the beauty of the show as it once was, B.C.*

When they did say something, as Sam did after Daniel's death, it meant something because it was real. Now, it's just words.




*Before Crap. Refers to the show pre-"Avalon, Part 1".

[astrogeologist]

Was 'Farscape' more popular or longer-lasting that 'Stargate: SG-1'?

What on Earth could possibly have made the Stargate PTB think that the fans of their show would rather see the actors from another show promoted ahead of the actors they had been watching on SG-1 for eight years?

Sometimes I doubt tptb really care about the fans anymore. After I found out tptb wanted BB to star as sheppard but he wasn't available at the time, I got the impression the role of mitchell was made just for Ben and they didn't think anyone would have a problem with the character because everyone loves ben (I do love ya ben) and no one would care that he never saw the gate before. It was all part of their "get to know mitchell campaign" from season 9. Kind of backfired when Sam lost command in the show. Then again--they even admitted they didn't know what to do with Sam after Vala came on board.

I couldn't agree more.

I agree with ya. I liked her intro but lately she is either wallpapered or missing in action. If I didn't know better I would have thought Shep and Rodney are in charge of Atlantis.

I would have to agree that shep and mckay are running Atlantis now. Part of the attempt to turn SGA into SG-1--not by bringing on the SG-1 actors--but by shoving shep team moments and shep/mckay banter, which is not as good as Daniel/Jack banter by any means, down our throat and try to establish the show as...are we even surprised?...a brand new show!

Spoilered for OT exposition

Spoiler:

I think SGAtlantis is actually structured this way:

First: It's centered around the lead alpha male (Sheppard). Everyone else was originally supposed to be secondary characters.

Second: McKay turned into their actual *favorite* character for the writers and directors. They love him. I think it's called a 'breakout' character when an initially secondary or background character blooms into one of the main characters.

Third: 'Guy-buddy' action hero scenarios. Like Lethal Weapon and such. The two main guy heroes are foils for each other. Opposites in many ways, poking at each other, but always *there* for each other. Sheppard and McKay are definitely the Jack & Daniel of SGA.

For me, I thought that McKay was originally slated to be the 'Carter' of SGA, but he's actually *both* Carter and Daniel. He's Carter's role in terms of the scifi techno McGyvering. And since there's no linguist/anthropologist/archeologist to speak up and be brilliant and smart, there's just McKay to be the brilliant scientist in the field (not that he's a linguist archeologist or anthropologist, just that there no one else when they are in the field to be 'science smart' - there's just McKay for the science in the field).

McKay fills Daniel's role in terms of his relationship with the lead alpha male 'guy-buddy' team, foils for each other, but always-there-for-each-other. One is a military 'straight-at-'em-brook-no-nonsense' guy, while the other is the 'not-always-practical-in-the-field-science' guy.

Kind of weird having McKay's role expand to basically take the equivalent of all of Carter's role and a major part of Daniel's role for SGA equivalents.

[jckfan55]

I couldn't agree more.



Spoilered for OT exposition

Spoiler:

I think SGAtlantis is actually structured this way:

First: It's centered around the lead alpha male (Sheppard). Everyone else was originally supposed to be secondary characters.

Second: McKay turned into their actual *favorite* character for the writers and directors. They love him. I think it's called a 'breakout' character when an initially secondary or background character blooms into one of the main characters.

Third: 'Guy-buddy' action hero scenarios. Like Lethal Weapon and such. The two main guy heroes are foils for each other. Opposites in many ways, poking at each other, but always *there* for each other. Sheppard and McKay are definitely the Jack & Daniel of SGA.

For me, I thought that McKay was originally slated to be the 'Carter' of SGA, but he's actually *both* Carter and Daniel. He's Carter's role in terms of the scifi techno McGyvering. And since there's no linguist/anthropologist/archeologist to speak up and be brilliant and smart, there's just McKay to be the brilliant scientist in the field (not that he's a linguist archeologist or anthropologist, just that there no one else when they are in the field to be 'science smart' - there's just McKay for the science in the field).

McKay fills Daniel's role in terms of his relationship with the lead alpha male 'guy-buddy' team, foils for each other, but always-there-for-each-other. One is a military 'straight-at-'em-brook-no-nonsense' guy, while the other is the 'not-always-practical-in-the-field-science' guy.

Kind of weird having McKay's role expand to basically take the equivalent of all of Carter's role and a major part of Daniel's role for SGA equivalents.

Good analysis. As for the highlighted portion. Not really--he's a guy, you know. Ooh, that was cynical wasn't it?
Maybe one of the reasons SG1 was so strong was that there wasn't a "breakout" character taking over the show to the extent we've seen with RM. Of course the "breakout" in shadow SG1 was Vaniel.

[MediaSavant]

Carter on SGA appears to me to be the only way of TPTB saying that Carter deserved a command. Not command of the show's main field unit (that goes to the lead alpha male), but some kind of recognized command that doesn't threaten (or interfere with) the lead alpha male.

That's a good theory...and probably closest to their real reason.

So, she got the promotion. But, is Carter as commander of the Atlantis mission really a better Carter to watch than Carter Season 9-10 or the movie?

Is promotion all it cracked up to be?

[Skydiver]

i think the jury will have to be out on that one, at least until we get to see the rest of s4 and - hopefully - get to see sam REALLY in command.

HOnestly, with AT's schedule, i think she was gone more than she was there for the first half. I'm hoping that in the second half with her there for 8 of the 10, we'll actually get to see her really doing something

And time will tell if Joe M can write 'female in charge' in a way that doesn't interfere with the cliche of 'lead male MUST be da boss'

[silkie]

i think the jury will have to be out on that one, at least until we get to see the rest of s4 and - hopefully - get to see sam REALLY in command.

HOnestly, with AT's schedule, i think she was gone more than she was there for the first half. I'm hoping that in the second half with her there for 8 of the 10, we'll actually get to see her really doing something

And time will tell if Joe M can write 'female in charge' in a way that doesn't interfere with the cliche of 'lead male MUST be da boss'

I get the feeling AT is trying to pull an RDA - I really feel Stargate is not her main concern right now, especially with Sanctuary becoming such a huge hit...

[Silverwings]

I get the feeling AT is trying to pull an RDA - I really feel Stargate is not her main concern right now, especially with Sanctuary becoming such a huge hit...

Can't blame her for incompetent writing, though.

[Skydiver]

no. her character was written as a fifth wheel for seasons 9 and 10. something almost unwanted and unnecessary. for seasons 7 and 8, off and on, IMO, they couldn't get her out of 'ooh, jack's girlfriend' and didn't know how to handle her if they couldn't play the ship angle

there were some gems in there. SUch as DeathKnell, which i think is a wonderful 'sam as a soldier' episode. But then you get eps like Grace, which got lost in the need to ship it up and lost a good chunk of its punch

Pete could have been a great complication to the whole thing, but again, they didn't write it as a complication, they wrote it as a joke

[jckfan55]

yeah, I agree. The "shipping up" of Grace weakened it in my eyes. contemplating her life, maybe. Pining for O'Neill, bleh. Of course I think the whole J/S thing was a big mistake all around.

the 5th wheel thing was glaring in S9 & 10. There were several times where the real Sam would have been right in there solving the problem & she was sidelined. Maybe b/c the writers didn't like science stories? Hmm, *science* fiction....