S10: Critique & Contemplation

[AGateFan]

Daniel hit Vala just as much as Vala hit him... Vala didn't know the Tauri at that point in time and I'm sure if she did, she wouldn't have ever taken over the ship. Thus she never would have hit Daniel, for all she knew the people aboard that ship could have been even more evil than Baal himself.

Daniel hitting Vala could be "in fear of his life" since she did just torture him (injure him and heal him and threaten to do so again) and just assaulted the entire crew and left them to die on a derelict ship (or to be murdered by the goa’uld since there is no way earth was going to send another ship to help). Oh and then Vala purposefully put a device onto him she new would kill him if he didn’t do as she wanted (blackmail and assault). Oh and of course she has enslaved a planet (AFTER she was no longer a goa'uld) stole from many people, purposefully caused emotional pain for several people, sexually harasses many people (some who she didn’t even know, so its not "playful banter").

Tomlin smacked her once when he got angry. Vala has constantly and willfully has caused people pain. Vala is by no means any kind of victim. She is a perpetrator who does not take responsibility for her actions nor is she required to.

I just ROFLMAO when one person does one thing to Vala he’s and "abuser" she does multiple different attacks on multiple people and she’s just having "fun". Two standards it’s a "Vala CANT do wrong" but anyone that does anything to vala is wrong.

Hence the opinion some appear to have that "men abuse women but women can't abuse men". Guess what women CAN and do abuse men and Vala has done it often.

EDIT: So if you dont know who someone is its OK to steal and abuse them? Well thats good to know, I dont know most people on the planet. That just makes vala even worse, how did she know that wasnt the last ship of a species that had been forced off their world by the goa'uld?

[AGateFan]

Why I find the 2 totally different situations Vala was a held captive on the Ori Ship she was completely and totally under his control there were Ori soldiers on the ship she was alone. The only reason he hit her was because he didn't like what she said.

In PU it was just her and Daniel on the ship granted she made it that way by laying the trap ringing everyone else away to the other ship but it was a fight between the 2 of them on relative equal terms 1 on 1. They were fighting over the ship the control of it.

I really am not happy with Tomin being in alot of pics released so far I really don't like him. For me this feelings started in Crusade when he left her on the stone for 3 days and then at the end when the Jekyll and Hyde personality first surfaced Vala was trapped and she had to lie to save herself from his rage. He didn't anger me in Flesh and Blood but LitS he did oh and just because he said he said he was sorry for striking her doesn't absolve him.

So when he was tied up and she injured him because he refused to help, are you saying he was NOT completely and utterly under her control and that she did not injure him because she didnt like what he said?

How is this not the same thing... or worse since she purposefully setup the situation by Ship-jacking with violence and leaving the crew to die?

Vala has never apologized for any of her crimes, there is nothing to absolve her character. I am very unhappy with any picture with her in the hero clothing of SG1. She is not a hero, she is not even a good anti hero shes just an abuser who found some naive people who will let her get away with her crimes and give her stuff for free. Must be a sweet deal for her. I bet Michael Vick wishes he could pull one down like that.

[Rogue]

Why I find the 2 totally different situations Vala was a held captive on the Ori Ship she was completely and totally under his control there were Ori soldiers on the ship she was alone. The only reason he hit her was because he didn't like what she said.

In PU it was just her and Daniel on the ship granted she made it that way by laying the trap ringing everyone else away to the other ship but it was a fight between the 2 of them on relative equal terms 1 on 1. They were fighting over the ship the control of it.

I really am not happy with Tomin being in alot of pics released so far I really don't like him. For me this feelings started in Crusade when he left her on the stone for 3 days and then at the end when the Jekyll and Hyde personality first surfaced Vala was trapped and she had to lie to save herself from his rage. He didn't anger me in Flesh and Blood but LitS he did oh and just because he said he said he was sorry for striking her doesn't absolve him.

Hmmm, I feel the same way about Vala since PU. She steals the ship for profit, left the crew to die on a crippled ship, beats on Daniel, then arrives at the SGC like nothing ever happened. She never paid for her crimes or has even expressed remorse for what she had done.

[Skydiver]

that's the biggest weakness of seasons 9 adn 10. not just vala getting a free pass, but how about daniel's actions in the shroud? or teal'c in talion? or cameron's in stand off? (i'm sure someone will come up with something sam screwed up, but i'm blanking at the moment beyond gemini)

all the characers have done dang stupid things to make a plot work, stupider than they should be, and in all cases NO ONE CALLS THEM ON IT. that's the biggie for me. not necessarily that they do something stupid, but that no one calls a spade a spade and says 'yeah, cam/daniel/sam/vala/teal'c, you screwed up'

there are no ramifications. and seemingly no remorse. that's the odd part for me

[poundpuppy29]

This discussion is more general in nature than complaints about season 10 so I bumped this thread up

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...99#post7428299

Let's continue it there I really not an Anti season 10 person so I shouldn't hijack this thread like I did sorry.

[Melora]

This discussion is more general in nature than complaints about season 10 so I bumped this thread up

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...99#post7428299

Let's continue it there I really not an Anti season 10 person so I shouldn't hijack this thread like I did sorry.

Actually, I don't think you've hijacked it at all. I have found this discussion very interesting, so thank you for bringing up the topic. I don't think anyone here would object to continuing the discussion here since we all seem to have some "complaints and misgivings" about parts of Season 10. I also have no problem with someone who is pro-Season 10 posting here as long as he or she has some criticisms with the season to express and respects the POV of the other posters here. For example, you don't like Tomin and his actions towards Vala. I think that is a very valid complaint to have and one worthy of respect. It is also very much on topic for this thread. I also have no problem with someone expressing what they like about the season, as long as his or her post has a fair amount of criticism included.

And frankly, I would rather the DVCKs thread not be revived as it just always stirs up trouble and tension on the board which is something that I don't think anyone really needs right now.


My two cents on this topic...

I don’t think what Tomin did to Vala in Crusade or in LITS was morally right and I don’t see them getting together in the end. I don’t think they should have the romantic happily-ever-after because too much has happened between them over the years for that to be realistic. I do see what he did to her in those two eps as physical abuse, just as I see what Daniel did to her in Unending as emotional abuse. No one ever deserves to be treated that way, even Vala – especially by men who supposedly love her.

I also think what Vala did in the past was morally wrong (including what she did to Daniel and the crew of the Prometheus in PU). The difference is that she was the villain/adversary in that ep and so her actions were perfectly in character and to be expected. Tomin in Crusade and LITS is also the villain/adversary and his actions were also perfectly in character and to be expected. What makes them both interesting characters is we can see their path towards redemption. Neither one starts off as one of the “good guys.” And yet, both have redeeming qualities at the core of their characters that comes through.

Vala started her journey towards redemption in Season 9’s TPTB and Beachhead. She continued on this path throughout Season 10, with major missteps by the writers along the way. Her story arc could have been handled in a much more interesting way but often the writers often saw her as only a rather superficial comic relief figure. This is one of the reasons I feel Vala would have been much more effective as a recurring character that did not join the team in Season 10. TPTB had to change her character so much to make her fit in and make her a “good guy”, so much so that her character seemed to change almost overnight. A character that had been intelligent and resourceful (and often immoral) was transformed into one that was often immature and dumb but who was less morally ambiguous.

I find Tomin a fascinating character and I like his interactions with Vala b/c they make for good drama. What makes Tomin such an interesting character to me is the conflict within him. He believes he loves Vala, he believes the Ori are right and that they are his Gods, and yet he also sees how some of the things they have ordered him to do are wrong. I think he is one of the most interesting characters that TPTB have ever created on either show b/c he has this battle within him and he will eventually have to make a choice about who to put his faith in – Vala and what he feels is morally right or in the Gods he has trusted and worshiped since childhood. He is sort of like Teal’c in this respect, with the difference being Teal’c’s redemption occurred very quickly so he could be one of the “good guys” on the team. I believe by the end of AoT, Tomin will have to make a decision about who his is and what he believes and his arc will be completed in a much more satisfying way than Vala’s.

I think Tomin is also an interesting partner for Vala and her interactions with him have led to very interesting character growth for her. I don’t think she is in love with him and I don’t see that changing. But I do think she cares deeply for him and that is a nice side of Vala to get to see. Most of her relationships have been extremely superficial, b/c she uses humor and flirtation to keep people at a distance. It’s a defense mechanism. With Tomin, she really let her guard down in LITS and showed us she was capable of seriously caring for someone (even if she’s not in love with him). She is also conflicted about her feelings for him. Here is someone who took her in and cared for her when she was at her most vulnerable, someone she tricked and betrayed, someone who let the prior chain her up with no food and water, someone who hit her when she wouldn’t agree with something he believed. And yet, she still cares for him and doesn’t want to see him hurt or killed. It’s an interesting relationship b/c there is deep emotional conflict and tension there. And that is something that has been seriously lacking in SG-1 in the past couple of seasons. In short, Tomin’s relationship with Vala elevates her beyond the superficial comical character she usually is with the team to a character with an enormous amount of depth and gravitas.

[heliosphere]

This discussion is more general in nature than complaints about season 10 so I bumped this thread up

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...99#post7428299

Let's continue it there I really not an Anti season 10 person so I shouldn't hijack this thread like I did sorry.

I think it's okay because I am rather pro season 9 and 10, but there are definately some things I need to whine about and you just can't do it in threads where the posters think gold flew out of everyone's butt's in 9 and 10 because it was just so perfect.

Regarding the abuse topic, (and I haven't quite figured out the mulitquote thingie, so forgive me), some have brought up how Vala's attitude toward Daniel was sexual harassment and it is double standard to be angry only Tomin for his wifebeating. Now this I totally agree with. It did get annoying to see that keep happening, and I wish they weren't so heavy handed about it. I worked for PU and maybe the mini-series thingie at the beginning of 9 because Vala was only a guest at that point. I felt bad for Daniel, but figured she was the new 'Anise' or whatever that Tok'ra ho's name was.

Then they did some weird things with her characterization, where she would be flirty at one point, and like ditzy girl/little girl the next. I had no idea where they were going with her! And let's not mention the hairdryer thing, I have banished it from my brain.

And I think if she hadn't been there constantly, we wouldn't have had to deal with this very angry all-the-time Daniel. I don't agree with a lot of y'all about the action jackson thing because I saw Daniel as more into the action part of scenes way back in seasons 4 and 5. But I do agree that he was cranky and I feel that it was because they had Vala constantly harassing him. If they played that a little different, I think I would have really liked it.

When it was on, I was just so happy to see someone showing an interest in him again (after so many dropped chances with Sarah and a few guests like Catherine's neice I think it was and that a few of the ambassadors and Daniel and Weir don't make fun of me, I thought they'd be cute together) that I think it didn't hit me that the teasing was hurting him at first.

[Jackie]

When it was on, I was just so happy to see someone showing an interest in him again (after so many dropped chances with Sarah and a few guests like Catherine's neice I think it was and that a few of the ambassadors and Daniel and Weir don't make fun of me, I thought they'd be cute together) that I think it didn't hit me that the teasing was hurting him at first.

I would never make fun of you.

Daniel is what I call multi-ship-able. He can be shipped with anyone. He was a established character from the movie that was adorable and then became the one of the most popular characters in the series.

Daniel can be shipped with just about anyone: Daniel/Vala, Daniel/Sam, Daniel/ Janet, Daniel/Jack, Daniel/Sha're, Daniel/Weir would work too. Daniel and OC in fan fics. Daniel can also be shipped with just about any female bad guy too.

He's rather pliable in that way. He's like play doh--mold him into anything you wish.

If Stargate were made into weebles then Daniel would be perfect for that toy. He wobbles but he don't fall down.

[Silverwings]

Daniel's also a renewable food source for the Wraith, according to one clever sig I saw the other day...

[heliosphere]

I would never make fun of you.

Daniel is what I call multi-ship-able. He can be shipped with anyone. He was a established character from the movie that was adorable and then became the one of the most popular characters in the series.

Daniel can be shipped with just about anyone: Daniel/Vala, Daniel/Sam, Daniel/ Janet, Daniel/Jack, Daniel/Sha're, Daniel/Weir would work too. Daniel and OC in fan fics. Daniel can also be shipped with just about any female bad guy too.

He's rather pliable in that way. He's like play doh--mold him into anything you wish.

If Stargate were made into weebles then Daniel would be perfect for that toy. He wobbles but he don't fall down.

Hee! That is so totally how I feel! He's even fun to crossover fandom with, because I have read some Daniel/Buffy and Daniel/Willow stories from BTVS that blew my socks off. (And Sam needs to either run off with Sam from Quantum Leap or with Egon from the cartoon version of the ghostbusters <3 )


Did it seem like in season 10 particulary, that there was an increase in comedy type episodes? I saw that pointed out somewhere, maybe sci-fi boards, and now I'm not sure. Because there were a few in 7 and 8 too, right?

[Jackie]

Hee! That is so totally how I feel! He's even fun to crossover fandom with, because I have read some Daniel/Buffy and Daniel/Willow stories from BTVS that blew my socks off. (And Sam needs to either run off with Sam from Quantum Leap or with Egon from the cartoon version of the ghostbusters <3 )


Did it seem like in season 10 particulary, that there was an increase in comedy type episodes? I saw that pointed out somewhere, maybe sci-fi boards, and now I'm not sure. Because there were a few in 7 and 8 too, right?

OMG--I tried to write a fic where Sam Beckett leaped into Sam Carter and I found that the pair would be very ship-able if I chose too. But the problem I had was they had the same name.

Anyways, Sam Beckett on Stargate would be just cool. I can see a scene where Sam Carter and Sam Beckett start talking physics and no one understands a word they would say.

Come to think of it Sam Beckett and Al are QL version of Jack and Daniel. They really do play well off each other and Al is a lot like Jack.

[suse]

that's the biggest weakness of seasons 9 adn 10. not just vala getting a free pass, but how about daniel's actions in the shroud? or teal'c in talion? or cameron's in stand off? (i'm sure someone will come up with something sam screwed up, but i'm blanking at the moment beyond gemini)

all the characers have done dang stupid things to make a plot work, stupider than they should be, and in all cases NO ONE CALLS THEM ON IT. that's the biggie for me. not necessarily that they do something stupid, but that no one calls a spade a spade and says 'yeah, cam/daniel/sam/vala/teal'c, you screwed up'

there are no ramifications. and seemingly no remorse. that's the odd part for me

Then we have Sam, saying she screwed up in the "Baal steals the codes" ep. No, she didn't think he'd get off base. And he was threatening to kill people. What a darned if you do, darned if you don't moment. And locking out codes in SOP for personnel that might be compromised. Which describes Sam. Landry didn't do that.

She's the only one to take responsibility. And it wasn't hers to take.

suse

[suse]

Actually, I don't think you've hijacked it at all. I have found this discussion very interesting, so thank you for bringing up the topic. I don't think anyone here would object to continuing the discussion here since we all seem to have some "complaints and misgivings" about parts of Season 10. I also have no problem with someone who is pro-Season 10 posting here as long as he or she has some criticisms with the season to express and respects the POV of the other posters here. For example, you don't like Tomin and his actions towards Vala. I think that is a very valid complaint to have and one worthy of respect. It is also very much on topic for this thread. I also have no problem with someone expressing what they like about the season, as long as his or her post has a fair amount of criticism included.

And frankly, I would rather the DVCKs thread not be revived as it just always stirs up trouble and tension on the board which is something that I don't think anyone really needs right now.


My two cents on this topic...

I don’t think what Tomin did to Vala in Crusade or in LITS was morally right and I don’t see them getting together in the end. I don’t think they should have the romantic happily-ever-after because too much has happened between them over the years for that to be realistic. I do see what he did to her in those two eps as physical abuse, just as I see what Daniel did to her in Unending as emotional abuse. No one ever deserves to be treated that way, even Vala – especially by men who supposedly love her.

I also think what Vala did in the past was morally wrong (including what she did to Daniel and the crew of the Prometheus in PU). The difference is that she was the villain/adversary in that ep and so her actions were perfectly in character and to be expected. Tomin in Crusade and LITS is also the villain/adversary and his actions were also perfectly in character and to be expected. What makes them both interesting characters is we can see their path towards redemption. Neither one starts off as one of the “good guys.” And yet, both have redeeming qualities at the core of their characters that comes through.

Vala started her journey towards redemption in Season 9’s TPTB and Beachhead. She continued on this path throughout Season 10, with major missteps by the writers along the way. Her story arc could have been handled in a much more interesting way but often the writers often saw her as only a rather superficial comic relief figure. This is one of the reasons I feel Vala would have been much more effective as a recurring character that did not join the team in Season 10. TPTB had to change her character so much to make her fit in and make her a “good guy”, so much so that her character seemed to change almost overnight. A character that had been intelligent and resourceful (and often immoral) was transformed into one that was often immature and dumb but who was less morally ambiguous.

I find Tomin a fascinating character and I like his interactions with Vala b/c they make for good drama. What makes Tomin such an interesting character to me is the conflict within him. He believes he loves Vala, he believes the Ori are right and that they are his Gods, and yet he also sees how some of the things they have ordered him to do are wrong. I think he is one of the most interesting characters that TPTB have ever created on either show b/c he has this battle within him and he will eventually have to make a choice about who to put his faith in – Vala and what he feels is morally right or in the Gods he has trusted and worshiped since childhood. He is sort of like Teal’c in this respect, with the difference being Teal’c’s redemption occurred very quickly so he could be one of the “good guys” on the team. I believe by the end of AoT, Tomin will have to make a decision about who his is and what he believes and his arc will be completed in a much more satisfying way than Vala’s.

I think Tomin is also an interesting partner for Vala and her interactions with him have led to very interesting character growth for her. I don’t think she is in love with him and I don’t see that changing. But I do think she cares deeply for him and that is a nice side of Vala to get to see. Most of her relationships have been extremely superficial, b/c she uses humor and flirtation to keep people at a distance. It’s a defense mechanism. With Tomin, she really let her guard down in LITS and showed us she was capable of seriously caring for someone (even if she’s not in love with him). She is also conflicted about her feelings for him. Here is someone who took her in and cared for her when she was at her most vulnerable, someone she tricked and betrayed, someone who let the prior chain her up with no food and water, someone who hit her when she wouldn’t agree with something he believed. And yet, she still cares for him and doesn’t want to see him hurt or killed. It’s an interesting relationship b/c there is deep emotional conflict and tension there. And that is something that has been seriously lacking in SG-1 in the past couple of seasons. In short, Tomin’s relationship with Vala elevates her beyond the superficial comical character she usually is with the team to a character with an enormous amount of depth and gravitas.

Brava!!

IMO, in short, if Vala had been written with the depth she had when paired with Tomin she's have been a much stronger character. With the exception of Teal'c (I liked that relationship too) she was all over the board. And an insult to those who remember one of TPTB saying regarding Anise, who was brought on to be a 7 of 9 clad type of character that *that* type of character was not needed on SG-1, that the fans where much too smart. Yet in S9 they brought that type (Bimbo in leather) of character on and added sexual harassment to the mix. Not to mention unrepentant thief, kidnapper, slaver, (not very good) con-artist...the list goes on. Because it, as we all know, is "sexy" and "fun".

suse

[SionnachOghma]

Then they shove that stereotype in front of your face and have Teyla beat up Sheppard in a training session--same deal--it's supposed to be funny seeing "little Teyla" beat up Air Force Colonel John Sheppard.

I didn't really see that as being a joke, as much as establishing the kind of people the Athosians have become after so long under the shadow of the Wraith - nomadic warriors, not to be pushed around. If anything, I saw the scene as an object lesson for Sheppard et al, letting them know that having all the tech and cool weapons didn't necessarily mean they were the baddest guys in Pegasus. Far from it, in fact.

Male and female stereotypes didn't even enter into the equation: what was being done was showing that living in fear of the Wraith, and never having much oppurtunity to evolve technologically, shouldn't allow the Athosians to be viewed as an unevolved, cowardly people.

And as for 'little' Teyla, they seem to go to great lengths to make Rachel Luttrell's stature seem much more robust. In her onscreen interviews, she seems much more petit than she does on the show. IMO, the Teyla character was never intended to enforce any kind of gender stereotype. I can't imagine the character being much different as a male, or more or less likeable.

[Skydiver]

with sam in Insiders i think it was, you know, i can see blaming landry,but also, this is sam, the writer of viruses and the gate dialing code...and she couldn't booby trap those addresses? She couldn't have downloaded bad ones from the 'forbidden' list?

not only did others enable her but she didn't really work that hard to help herself either. even if what she was doing was doomed to fail, she should have at least tried

but they couldn't do that. cause they needed baal to get the addys so sam was teh plot device to make it happen