S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Rogue]

Yeah, this a totally subjective thing and it depends on what you define as team. Some will say if all four are on the screen, it's team. Some will say if all of them have an active part, it's team. For me, team is all of them in one area trying to solve a problem and nobody sort of regulated to a B line or just standing there with no actual lines. (Which only works for Teal'c, I think.)

I started really hating the words, "It's a team episode!" in the second half of 9 and 10 when other countries would get the episodes first and people summarize and say, WHAT A GREAT TEAM EPISODE! And then I'd watch it and it'd be like all about Vala and some OC. Or yeah, Sam would be there, but she'd be like a lamp for all she'd get to say.

Bounty, for example, is considered a team episode by some because everyone has a part in it, but to me, everyone was in different places doing different things! How is that team? And there are a few that were all about Daniel, which should have made me happy, but I was wondering where the heck Sam was the whole time. And then she'd get two lines or something just to justify her existence. It was just the opposite of how I felt during 4 and 5. Too much of one of my favs, and not enough of the other. And no scenes with each other.

Sam played an important role on the show for 8 years only to be reduced to the fifth wheel on a team she once commanded. IMO, Sam deserved better.

[AGateFan]

reganx and Nikki, we'll have to agree to disagree here, because I definately saw a problem with how Daniel was shoved to the side in a lot of season 4 and 5 episodes. he'd get his own isolated episodes, and then there'd be a bunch of what are supposed to be team episodes, but it would be Daniel off in the B storyline with Paul Davis or something. Maybe "team" means something different to us. I see team as all four working together on a problem in the same place sort of. I don't really count it as team if some characters are over here and some on another planet doing something else.

But if you aren't particularly fond of his character, I could see that you wouldn't really notice if he's not saying any lines or just standing off to the side or something. There were times he was in those episodes just standing there like Teal'c, off to the side not saying anything. That's sidelining and I def. noticed it more because I mainly watch the show for Sam and Daniel.

It still goes down to the writing. Even if the storyline went a different direction than the first three years (and they really couldn't keep doing the explore a planet a week thing- it was getting too Original Trek like after a while), they could have still written him as making cultural observations and things like that. And in 9 and 10, they could have fully integrated Sam back into things after her maternity leave. But they chose not to because she didn't fit in with their current agenda. It was so obvious they didn't know what to do with either character during either time, that it was pathetic.

Then I think they had the balance perfect for both Daniel and Sam in season 7 and 8, though Jack was missed (not much they could do about that). But they got to be around each other! They got to be in significant scenes with both Jack and Teal'c! When something happened, they got to do things together in most cases rather than one of them getting sent off to do something separate.

I finally think that they've got the balance down pat, and then WHAM. The start doing the same jerking around to Sam that they did to Daniel. Suddenly, she's off in some other room with a laptop while all the cool stuff is happening somewhere else. She's floating around in space while all the action scenes are somewhere else. Near the end of 10, she got a few episodes to herself, but other than that, it felt like she was slotted in this role of "Cam and Vala's friend." What's with that?

Because they couldn't write about her romantically like they often did in 7 and 8, they couldn't think of anything to do? I swear, it was like she spent two seasons in her lab working on that ancient phase device the whole time and only came out to plug in her laptop on a ship. I wanted so much to see her become the leader and become the mentor and teacher for the newer military guy this time around.but apparently, she had boobs, so she couldn't lead. I liked the idea of the Priors and Ori and the Arthur mythology (they handled it like crap, but that's a different post. The idea was cool IMO). I wanted to see Sam go off on some of these Ori solder guys, show some of the strategy she no doubt learned from Jack and in the academy. But it never materialized. She just sat there.

Wow, see I am a Daniel fan and I thought he was really coming into his own in S4-S5 and was shocked when they killed him off (no spoilers for me in those days). I was even resentful of Jonas at first.

I cant say as I really agree with ReganX on this issue because I think Daniel served a very important role on the team to help establish allies as a cultural expert. I think he grew beyond the wife search storyline and was not dissappointed when they ended it (at MS approval as far as I have heard) and again I was pleased with the teamly-ness of the episodes.

However, I also dissagree with you as I do see that there can be team when the team is separated as long as everyone is doing something important for the same goal. I felt Reckoning2 was a very team based ep (yes I know S8 but I am using this as an example because Daniel was so far separated yet working on the same goal and assisted in the resolution of the problem).

I felt S7 was less balanced then S4-S5 and ofcourse not only did I not see any balance in S9-S10, I didnt see any Daniel just a new unlikeable character that was far FAR removed from Daniel. S4-S5 Daniel to me was Evolution and growing from S1-S2 Daniel. JACKSON in S9-S10 was a whole new character.

So in S9-S10 not only did they wall paper Carter and Teal'c but Daniel wasnt even there... No SG-1 team members were there... Hell the GATE was barely there. Too me there is a world of difference between S4-S5 and S9-S10 in regards to TPTB "not knowing how to write their characters anymore".

[Frostfox]

reganx and Nikki, we'll have to agree to disagree here, because I definately saw a problem with how Daniel was shoved to the side in a lot of season 4 and 5 episodes. he'd get his own isolated episodes, and then there'd be a bunch of what are supposed to be team episodes, but it would be Daniel off in the B storyline with Paul Davis or something. Maybe "team" means something different to us. I see team as all four working together on a problem in the same place sort of. I don't really count it as team if some characters are over here and some on another planet doing something else.

As Sky said, people's perceptions are subjective. Like you and like MS, I found Daniel sidelined.
In a show with four principal characters, that strikes me as poor writing. Star Trek DS9 had nine characters in it's cast list, it managed to tell stories about all of them, including a bar keeper, through creative and intelligent writing. And a bar keeper is hardly a combat character, wasn't a member of Starfleet, how many stories can you set in a Bar. Plenty, as it turned out.

But if you aren't particularly fond of his character, I could see that you wouldn't really notice if he's not saying any lines or just standing off to the side or something. There were times he was in those episodes just standing there like Teal'c, off to the side not saying anything. That's sidelining and I def. noticed it more because I mainly watch the show for Sam and Daniel.

It still goes down to the writing. Even if the storyline went a different direction than the first three years (and they really couldn't keep doing the explore a planet a week thing- it was getting too Original Trek like after a while), they could have still written him as making cultural observations and things like that. And in 9 and 10, they could have fully integrated Sam back into things after her maternity leave. But they chose not to because she didn't fit in with their current agenda. It was so obvious they didn't know what to do with either character during either time, that it was pathetic.

I was no happier at the sidelining of Sam in nine and ten than I had been with Daniel in earlier seasons. Particularly as her absence through maternity leave was unavoidable.

Then I think they had the balance perfect for both Daniel and Sam in season 7 and 8, though Jack was missed (not much they could do about that). But they got to be around each other! They got to be in significant scenes with both Jack and Teal'c! When something happened, they got to do things together in most cases rather than one of them getting sent off to do something separate.

I finally think that they've got the balance down pat, and then WHAM. The start doing the same jerking around to Sam that they did to Daniel. Suddenly, she's off in some other room with a laptop while all the cool stuff is happening somewhere else. She's floating around in space while all the action scenes are somewhere else. Near the end of 10, she got a few episodes to herself, but other than that, it felt like she was slotted in this role of "Cam and Vala's friend." What's with that?

Because they couldn't write about her romantically like they often did in 7 and 8, they couldn't think of anything to do? I swear, it was like she spent two seasons in her lab working on that ancient phase device the whole time and only came out to plug in her laptop on a ship. I wanted so much to see her become the leader and become the mentor and teacher for the newer military guy this time around.but apparently, she had boobs, so she couldn't lead. I liked the idea of the Priors and Ori and the Arthur mythology (they handled it like crap, but that's a different post. The idea was cool IMO). I wanted to see Sam go off on some of these Ori solder guys, show some of the strategy she no doubt learned from Jack and in the academy. But it never materialized. She just sat there.

They wasted the character and a good actress too. Why limit Amanda like that when she's ready, willing and able to work with any material they gave her? Too often they play it safe and didn't stretch any of their actors. One thing they did do was give MS the occasional powerhouse episode to work with, such as Abyss (with a grade A performance from RDA to boot) and Lifeboat (an episode concept they hung on to until they had MS back working with them, rather than rewrite it for another player). I'd have like to have seen more like that for AT too. Line in the Sand was good, I wasn't as happy with The Road Not Taken, Amanda was okay but I felt the lack of team, I like all the characters best interacting with each other.

The underlined would suggest that the writers were making an effort to give Daniel storylines of his own. As I mentioned before, his skillsets meant that he wasn't going to be playing a major role on missions, because more often than not, they weren't going to be dealing with his areas of interest.

Good writers should be able to write for any one of the four principal characters, within the framework of a 40 minute TV show. As has been pointed out recently, in reality Sam would never be allowed through the gate; she's too valuable to be put at risk. I think it was Jackie who pointed out that a suicidal Jack would have been off the front line. And an alien? Um, no.
All the characters have traits which would in reality not make them candidates for a front line team. But this being a TV show called SG1, the writers should have taken the characters as in canon and have turned in stories which didn't under use or sideline any of them. If they couldn't do that, which is the most basic tenant of their job, they should have brought in writers who could.
Daniel's arc over with Shar'e and the baby? Fine. True.
So find him a new arc. That's what competent writers are there for.
I never understood dropping Sam's Jolinar arc, and they even had a chance to resurrect it, all these years later, with Vala, another ex-host. But they didn't, what a waste.

FF

[ReganX]

Good writers should be able to write for any one of the four principal characters, within the framework of a 40 minute TV show.

That's not always possible. If the 'A' storyline features one or two or even three characters but the fourth cannot be fit into it, then giving the fourth his or her own storyline is better than having him or her just standing around. It's not an ideal situation, and it shouldn't be the norm by any means, but sometimes it's inevitable.

Daniel's arc over with Shar'e and the baby? Fine. True.
So find him a new arc. That's what competent writers are there for.

I thought that "The Other Side" was actually the perfect opportunity to start a secondary arc, not just for Daniel by himself, but for all of them. Imagine if "The Other Side" had gone a little differently; Sam and Daniel return to Earth with news of the deal, and Daniel raises his concerns, which Hammond brings to the President. The President, under huge pressure from Kinsey and his gang, forbids further investigation into the Eurondans and orders that negotiations be turned over to non-SGC spokespeople. The deal is made, and although Daniel is able to uncover at least some of the truth and report back, it makes no difference.

It is decided that it is more important that Earth has access to Eurondan technology, even if it means that they are helping someone like Alar to get it.

They'd probably all be angry and disillusioned about this, but Daniel, as non-military, would have more freedom to voice his feelings. How would he deal with working for people who were prepared to turn a blind eye to genocide in exchange for technology? On one hand, they do need to protect themselves from the Goa'uld, but at what cost? What about the people who are hurt because of the deals that he has a part in making?

How does he feel about the Stargate Program moving further and further away from missions to learn about other worlds and closer and closer to missions to gain technology and strategic allies rather than friends?

I never understood dropping Sam's Jolinar arc, and they even had a chance to resurrect it, all these years later, with Vala, another ex-host. But they didn't, what a waste.

A lot of missed potential there.

[poundpuppy29]

Helio and FF Great Points I agree with you. When I was watching my DVDs earlier this year I noticed the difference in season 4 and 5 and also 8 in Daniel attention 7 was kind of uneven for me some good points some bad. Do I wish Sam was more connected to the storyline in seasons 9 and 10 yes just like I wish Daniel was more connected in season 4 and 5. The 2 episodes in the begining of season 10 that didn't have have Daniel were not nearly as good as the latter 2 the way they wrote MS out was very lame IMHO.

[Melora]

I always had trouble understanding why a number of fans complained about Daniel’s participation in Seasons 4 and 5, b/c I always viewed him as being an integral part of the show in those seasons. It’s true that Daniel was sidelined in a few episodes – Small Victories, Desperate Measures, and Wormhole Extreme come to mind. But in the majority of the episodes, he was at least given the “B” story and he had quite a few episodes where he was the central character. Looking back now, I can sympathize with this point of view a little better even though I personally still don’t really see Daniel as being sidelined in those seasons.

Daniel’s role in the story arc did change in Season 4 due to the death of Sha’re. Like AGateFan, I really liked some of what TPTB did with his character. I actually like the tension and conflict that seemed to be building between Daniel and Jack over the course of these two seasons (the confrontation in ‘Menace’ is one of the highlights of Season 5 for me). But his role in the story did change and the show did slightly go in a new direction with the NID. However, I don’t think it would be accurate to say he was sidelined or ignored, b/c there was just too much great character growth for Daniel and too many terrific scenes for MS in those seasons. Some of MS’s best work was in Seasons 4 and 5. I do think that all too often Daniel was sent off on his own to be part of the “B” story and I do think TPTB had to sometimes figure out how to incorporate him into a story where the character really wasn’t necessary. For example, in “48 Hours” he was sent off to Russia with Davis. I think TPTB wrote this “B” story pretty much just to give Daniel something to do. And there are other examples similar to this one. I can definitely see how this could be annoying to fans who wanted to see Daniel playing a more active role in every ep and interacting with the rest of the team more.

If they had done something similar with Sam in Seasons 9 and 10, I might have been a little disappointed but not nearly to extent I was with what they actually came up with. The difference for me is that TPTB didn’t even bother to write a “B” story for Sam to take an active role in. Except for TRNT (and possibly Ripple Effect), she definitely wasn’t given any episodes where her character played the central role. Even LITS (which some consider a Sam ep) had her primarily unconscious in the “B” story for the majority of the ep.

I guess I’m saying that I just can’t see how the situations are comparable. I do see where Daniel fans probably felt similarly annoyed and disappointed way back in Seasons 4 and 5 and I can understand that. But as a Sam fan (who really liked Daniel back in Seasons 1-8), I think I would have greatly preferred the style of ‘sidelining’ they bestowed on Daniel in Seasons 4 and 5 over what they did to Sam in Seasons 9 and 10 any day. At least the character would have had a number of stories where she played a central role and some character growth. As it was, she was just kept around for technobabble and extra firepower, as well as being the occasional sidekick to provide a shoulder to cry on. Just my (admittedly biased ) POV.

[jckfan55]

I started really hating the words, "It's a team episode!" in the second half of 9 and 10 when other countries would get the episodes first and people summarize and say, WHAT A GREAT TEAM EPISODE! And then I'd watch it and it'd be like all about Vala and some OC. Or yeah, Sam would be there, but she'd be like a lamp for all she'd get to say.

Bounty, for example, is considered a team episode by some because everyone has a part in it, but to me, everyone was in different places doing different things! How is that team? And there are a few that were all about Daniel, which should have made me happy, but I was wondering where the heck Sam was the whole time. And then she'd get two lines or something just to justify her existence. It was just the opposite of how I felt during 4 and 5. Too much of one of my favs, and not enough of the other. And no scenes with each other.

They'd been separated in the past, but usually working on the *same* problem. I always go back to Solitudes as a team episode b/c they all have the same goal--getting Sam and Jack back to the SGC. the effort Teal'c and Daniel put in shows *team* more than some feeble lines like "Teal'c is family" (shudder) that we got in S9 & 10.

[jckfan55]

If they had done something similar with Sam in Seasons 9 and 10, I might have been a little disappointed but not nearly to extent I was with what they actually came up with. The difference for me is that TPTB didn’t even bother to write a “B” story for Sam to take an active role in. Except for TRNT (and possibly Ripple Effect), she definitely wasn’t given any episodes where her character played the central role. Even LITS (which some consider a Sam ep) had her primarily unconscious in the “B” story for the majority of the ep.

I guess I’m saying that I just can’t see how the situations are comparable. I do see where Daniel fans probably felt similarly annoyed and disappointed way back in Seasons 4 and 5 and I can understand that. But as a Sam fan (who really liked Daniel back in Seasons 1-8), I think I would have greatly preferred the style of ‘sidelining’ they bestowed on Daniel in Seasons 4 and 5 over what they did to Sam in Seasons 9 and 10 any day. At least the character would have had a number of stories where she played a central role and some character growth. As it was, she was just kept around for technobabble and extra firepower, as well as being the occasional sidekick to provide a shoulder to cry on. Just my (admittedly biased ) POV.

You and me both. Sam was given less to do in S9 & 10 than at any time including S1. You can see why some Sam fans went conspiracy theory and speculated that they were trying to get AT to quit in disgust.

they turned LiTS, which was originally supposed to be a Sam episode into a Vala episode. while I understand that they wanted to deal with the Vala-Tomin thing, I was very disappointed that they had to do it in Sam's episode. Sam became the B story. If you skip the Vala stuff I think you can watch the episode in about 15 minutes. We did get a non-annoying Cam (imho) working with Sam, which was good.

[astrogeologist]

Wow - great posts everyone... and it won't let me rep anyone... so consider yourself all repped.

For me... I find it very interesting that I've watched countless scifi series and I don't remember ever being so turned off by a show's new direction that I found myself actually angrily pissed off at the show's PTB... not until SG-1's Seasons 9 and 10.

There were always cast changes and new characters on Star Trek series... some I liked, some I didn't, but the changes never made me angry or disgusted or offended to the point where I stopped watching.

I think it's because.. .for these other scifi shows, I watched for the scifi storyline and adventure more than I watched for the characters. I liked the characters... some more than others... some not much (say... 7 of 9...)... but I wasn't *that* upset if the characters weren't all played or written the way that I wanted them to be. I think I was more interested in the overall storyline and set-up and the individual episodes were fun, but not the-be-all-to-end-all.

And then I somehow got hooked on Stargate SG-1. And it wasn't because of the wonderfully polished scifi episodes... they've never been without their plotholes and problems... But somehow, I got hooked and drawn into these characters in a way I hadn't been with other scifi series.

I *really* liked the SG-1 team of Jack, Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. I didn't think any of the characters were written perfectly... I think Jack should have been shown to be more of a military strategist who gets things done through back-door-smarts... I don't think he should have been written as a hot-shot pilot. Daniel... to be honest, I think they did a good job with his character - until the last couple of seasons - and then I don't like him at all. Sam, I liked through Season 6... Season 7 saw some changes... didn't like the way they dealt with her B-story-love-life - very badly written... and then Seasons 9 and 10 were horrible for poor Carter... Teal'c - I think they could have done more with... he was used for comedy relief a bit too much... but then they'd flip too far to the other side with his character... I wanted to see Teal'c's growth - as they intimated that Bra'tac's character had learned wisdom from his long life, it would have been great to see Teal'c evolve in a similar way.

At any rate, the characters weren't perfect, but something hooked me into these 4. The actors? The chemistry between them? I don't know what it was, but I liked team SG-1.

With the promise of Season 9 came the loss of RDA and Jack O'Neill. As I'd seen characters come and go in previous scifi series', I wasn't afraid of the future, I was actually simply happy that there *would be* a Season 9. It never occurred to me that the series could, or would, take such a drastic turn and change the characters and make-up of SG-1. I would never have foreseen the new direction of Seasons 9 & 10. I would not have conceived of Vala's character as written in Seasons 9 & 10, nor would I have ever thought they would bring in a new male lead and write it all as if we were supposed to love and cherish said new male lead.

Guh.

[suse]

You and me both. Sam was given less to do in S9 & 10 than at any time including S1. You can see why some Sam fans went conspiracy theory and speculated that they were trying to get AT to quit in disgust.

they turned LiTS, which was originally supposed to be a Sam episode into a Vala episode. while I understand that they wanted to deal with the Vala-Tomin thing, I was very disappointed that they had to do it in Sam's episode. Sam became the B story. If you skip the Vala stuff I think you can watch the episode in about 15 minutes. We did get a non-annoying Cam (imho) working with Sam, which was good.

I found him quite annoying. Enough with 'Grandma' and 'getting the band back together'! That last topic will get a (not good) knee-*jerk*hehehe reaction from me every time.

Actually I'm kind of glad they added the Vala/Tomin. It was the best part of the episode. And I *never* thought I'd say that about that particular character. And not Sam. Though AT did a great job acting the pain. Too bad Sam's pain was also mine. <<gag>>.

suse

[suse]

Daniel... I was another that never saw him as side-lined. Ever. Some very good stuff for him came out of Seasons 4 & 5. Er, better not go further with this...

Certainly more than what Sam got in S9 and almost all of S10. The Sam focused stuff that finally came just wasn't good. Sure, team (or lack thereof) had something to do with that. I've given my views on LITS. TRNT...oy. Lack of team...the other very Sam-centric eps (S7s Grace/Death Knell) at least had some team/friendship moments, whether it was in Sam's head or on the base worrying. This one? No one even cared that "their" Sam was dead and well, I've never considered Mitchell a team member. <<yawn>>

suse

[Jackie]

stargate was all about making the show seem real to the viewer and part of that perception is making the viewer care about the characters.

Harry Potter is silly, way too much hocus pocus and stomach turning monsters but what makes Harry Potter--Harry Potter--is the characters.

You fall in love with characters--you connect with them and want to see them win at the end of the story.

Even Voldemort makes a connection as evil as the character is.

SG-1 had that connection with its viewers too--until tptb decided to make it into a comedy.

Daniel turned into another character that seemed grumpy and angry all the time. I think tptb were going for the Desi/Lucy comedy hour with Daniel/Vala.

Vala--arm candy--and lucy.

Sam--wallpaper

Teal'c--walpaper

Jack--who? don't know Jack.

Mitchell--marty stu all the way

Landry--just but BB in a santa suit and he could be cris kringle in that part. Landry just gave everything away.

Ba'al--too many to mention

the Ori--boring

Adria--sex kitten.

the only good character out of season 9 and 10 was tomin.

[poundpuppy29]

I do not not like Tomin I don't like the Jekyll Hyde personality he has. After LitS his fate is sealed in My AU. I know you may say it is because I am a D&V shipper no I am in the minority there with my fellow shippers many of them like him and have AU where V&T are together. What permanently put me against him was when he hit Vala why that set me off was because he was in no danger the only reason he hit her was because he didn't like what she said not because he was defending himself like Daniel in PU.

[heliosphere]

I do not not like Tomin I don't like the Jekyll Hyde personality he has. After LitS his fate is sealed in My AU. I know you may say it is because I am a D&V shipper no I am in the minority there with my fellow shippers many of them like him and have AU where V&T are together. What permanently put me against him was when he hit Vala why that set me off was because he was in no danger the only reason he hit her was because he didn't like what she said not because he was defending himself like Daniel in PU.

they had a chance to make him a sympathetic character, someone who we could watch as a very good person that got so involved in a religious furvor that he didn't realize how bad it was until he discovered for himself. If they would have kept that, and not made him Mr. Wifebeater, I really could have liked him. Especially since it'll probably be forgotten in Ark of Truth the way all the implied rapes have been. I could have dealt with it if he had just hollered at her or if they got into a physical battle and both were fighting like a bad/guy good/guy sort of fight where gender is neutral.

Nope. It was Vala saying something he didn't like, and him backhanding her like some drunken abusing husband. I really liked his character up until that point, even with his alliances and skewed beliefs. But I cannot tolerate Mr. Wifebeater, especially if he comes back and she forgives him and he's all nice to her until the next time she says something he doesn't like. It's a textbook abuse case but undertaken by writers who treat it as like forgettable scene.

ETA: I read that over and it is a little strong of an opinion, so sorry about that. I do volunteer work near campus with a battered women's and children's shelter, so seeing it thrown in casually on TV shows or movies without any repercussions or with other characters thinking 'she deserved it' really bites my butt.

[Jackie]

I do not not like Tomin I don't like the Jekyll Hyde personality he has. After LitS his fate is sealed in My AU. I know you may say it is because I am a D&V shipper no I am in the minority there with my fellow shippers many of them like him and have AU where V&T are together. What permanently put me against him was when he hit Vala why that set me off was because he was in no danger the only reason he hit her was because he didn't like what she said not because he was defending himself like Daniel in PU.

tptb purposely made him the "wifebeater' so you wouldn't like him and go for their Vala/Daniel ship. Daniel shoving Vala around is more acceptable than Tomin hitting her--I guess.

Tomin striking Vala went way out of the establish character they tried to make him as in season 9. The loving cripple that nursed Vala back to health.

That scene was the ultimate clich'e to make Vala/Daniel ship cannon in the show. Prior to that scene--Tomin was like old Daniel and people liked him.

I still find Tomin far more interesting than Vala due to the layers of angst associated with the character. The hitting was ooc for tomin and another plot device IMO.

Tomin was not supposed to be a bad man or evil bad guy. He's the common man who just found out everything he was taught as a child was wrong. Tomin should be having a major meltdown right now.