S10: Critique & Contemplation

[JessM]

JessM, that is truly sad. I think a lot of the feminine aspects of Sam Carter are things Amanda wanted to have the opportunity to play, and it seems like those things are often the focal point of criticism of the character. Like it or not, there are many career women out there who do long for romantic companionship and long term relationships. There's nothing wrong with it yet it seems to be quite the issue that Carter wants to have a personal life and a relationship (how much do I wish Browder had been cast as Pete!).

It is, isn't it. I think that might have been what some of the complaints were about; others were from people saying they thought Sam was too perfect and therefore unrealistic, and yet others who said she was like a breath of stale air, or something ridiculous like that.

While it's possible that there was a good degree of nastiness from some CB/Vala fans (I admit, there are some real nutjobs out there), I remember when I first joined this board pre-season 9, in anticipation of Ben and Claudia's gig, that I read a lot of negative stuff about AT/Carter. I was actually quite surprised because I thought the character was well liked.

No doubt, some actors take all this stupidity personally. I would, were I in their shoes. I was on a thread the other day, critical of Vala, and thought, "wow, I'm starting to feel like I'm actually Claudia-bashing" which is NEVER my intent.

I probably would, too. I think this is one of the professions where you have to have a somewhat thick skin but at the same time, it's still inexcusable for people to go to such lengths to trash a person and/or the character they play. lol, I've felt the same way lately when I've been critical of Daniel - don't intend to bash MS at all.

anyway, I do think there's a good amount of support for AT as well, and I think most people have been careful to make a distinction between actor and role but AT has played Carter for 10 years. I remember her mentioning something about how hardcore Carter was in the beginning and how she felt that was not realistic and didn't want to play it that way forever. I think that might have been on the pre-200 special.

At any rate, it just goes to show that these are real people with real feelings who, in AT's case, have put 10 danged years of their lives into this. It would be depressing to read some of this stuff. It depresses me half the time.

Yeah, AT did say in the interview that the comments have been about 90% positive and 10% really nasty, and she tends to focus on that 10%. I read an interview she did last year where she said in S9 they were going back more to Sam's roots. It's nice to see because I've actually liked the early season Sam more, but it seems like she's being sidelined this year, at least IMO.

And you're right - everyone needs to remember that, whether you like a character or not, the people who play them are real people with real feelings. It is a shame that some fans get so rabid like that.

[JessM]

Did AT mention what type of comments upset her?
She's always come across as someone quite strong about the motivations of her character. If it's about some of the bad choices that have been written for the character, I could see her feeling more vindicated than anything else.
I do rather horribly suspect it's linked to those (sadly many) comments I have seen comparing the looks of Sam and Vala.

Nope, she didn't go into detail at all about them. Here is what she said in that portion of the article:

"It is a different show, there's no denying this is not the SG-1 that we started with. A lot of things have changed, even just by virtue of the fact that we have a five-member team, that's a different format for us and it changes the dynamic of the team. I go online every once and again and I'll read something rather disparaging about myself and it's usually something catty and kinda nasty and I get my feelings hurt, honest to God. On many occasions my husband has come into the office and seen me sitting at the computer crying, going, 'You're not reading online again, are you?' And usually 90% of the stuff is really great and 10% of the stuff is not so nice. And I, of course, focus on the 10 per cent that's not nice!"

Judging from the way she said "catty" and "kinda nasty" I wouldn't doubt that some (or most?) could be those comparing the two women's looks.

[JessM]

AT talked about it briefly in the last interview she did with Gateworld. I think she just mentioned that she did go online and she had read comments about her character that were upsetting. I was sort of hoping that she would avoid the message boards after that. She certainly does not deserve some of the nasty things that are written about her and her character. The sad thing is that the nasty comments that fans make online usually have so very little to do with the actors or the characters. It is all about the evil that is fandom politics.

Ah, okay I remember that now. I felt bad for her and I hoped she would avoid them too. I remember that one forum was really bad for a while. I think they even had a "Who would win in a match - Carter or Vala?" thread. Lots of mudslinging going on.

I have no idea what AT was reading, but the bulk of the truly “nasty” comments I have read online in the past couple of years have come from some of the Vaniel fans. The thing is, most of these Vaniel fans are also long-time Daniel fans who have been critical of the Sam character for years. From what I can tell, very few of the devout CB fans (who are not as much fans of Daniel/MS) are all that negative about Sam/AT. At least from my perspective.

I have run into at least a few devout CB-and-Vaniel fans who felt this way, but you're right in that it doesn't mean that many of them share the sentiment. As for the long-time Daniel fans who've always been critical of Sam, I could never really figure that out, unless they thought Sam was competition for him in the brains department, or was stealing scenes from him or something (speaking as a long-time Daniel fan myself loving both of the characters)...

[JessM]

what i really, really want to see is vala/claudia allowing to interact with ANYONE that isn't daniel. vala and teal'c are fun, vala and sam have potential. In fact, in the two eps that Daniel wasn't in were the two that i enjoyed vala the most in, because she wasn't so caught up in playing off him and actually did something else

Same here. I hope we get to see some of it in the remaining Daniel-free episodes, and looks like we may get a chance to see her interact with others in

Spoiler:

Bad Guys

if just for a while.

It would also be great to see this in the dvd movies, but I think it's clear we'll have Vaniel for the Ori one. I hope it'll be different for the time travel one though.

It's not fair at all to pigeon hole anyone that bashes sam as a cb/vala fan. People of all 'kinds' hate the character. I know a die hard jack fan who absolutely HATES sam and all she can be because, in her mind, sam is getting in between jack and sara, the one true pairing that the show was meant to have.

I know some slashers that absolutely hate sam. to the point that they probably hate her worse than they did jonas. and there are some gen daniel fans that hate sam. and some tealc....nah, teal'c fans don't hate much of anything.

in any case, folks that hate sam don't belong to any one fan group. they belong to all of them.

I hope I didn't make it sound like I thought all people who hate Sam are CB/Vala fans. That's not what I meant at all. As I said in another post, I have met a few people who were diehard CB/Vala/Vaniel fans who hated Sam. I absolutely do not think they speak for all the Sam-haters. I'm sure there are plenty of people who hate her for all sorts of different reasons. I know someone who's a huge Daniel fan (and not a CB/Vala or Vaniel fan at all) who doesn't like Sam because she can't stand the S/J ship and she doesn't think Sam's character is realistic.

So I'm sorry if I made it sound like everyone who hates Sam is a CB/Vala/Vaniel-lover. I really didn't mean that.

[Skydiver]

I think part of that resentment stems from the fact that Jack is acknowledged to care more for her than he should and that there have been more than a couple of shippy episodes.

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from someone that was there and witnessed the firestorm set off by D&C, and yes, that was the trigger episode. until that point, jack's feelings for sam were not canon. therefore they could be written off as shippers projecting. the shippers were just silly little girls catering to thier own romantic fantasies. they were just seeing things that weren't there and since sam was new and jack and daniel were the two original characters, obviously their friendship - or more - was canon, and more canon than some silly ship ideal.

the anti-shippers could totally dismiss the shippers.

then came d&c and all of a sudden the shippers were proved right. jack's feelings were now canon and the anti-shippers were proved wrong.

this did not go over well.

the shippers, with a healthy dose of rightous indignation after 4 years of being told they were fools, enjoyed throwing 'i care more for her than i should' in the face of the anti-shippers. the anti's were pissed off as all get out to be wrong and a major divide began

archives that used to allow all but the most explicit het smut fic all of a sudden started to disallow anything remotely sam and jack. Jack and Sara fic was allowed to the point of smut and that was ok, same with daniel/shau'ri, but any and all sam and jack fic, even gen friendship, was banned.

people were kicked off lists because they were shippers. Many of the anti-shippers ran the major sites back then and thier dislike of sam/jack was taken to near fanatic levels.

so the shippers went off on their own. not quietly and not without soem barbs certainly.

teh jack/daniel relatioship was held up as the ideal of all that was good and pure in the show while ship was the anathma. it was evil adn silly.

thus started the lashing out at AT by SOME of the anti-shippers. And with any gang type mentality, things just got worse and worse, and it reached a fever pitch when, halfway thorugh s5 - at gatecon no less - it was announced that MS was leaving the show.

it HAD to be the fault of that nasty sam and jack that was pushing daniel off teh show. thus the hate and bile towards AT and sam grew and grew and grew

then came the save daniel jackson campaign, one whose nastiness and childishness knew no bounds as SOME of the individuals descended as far as to send death threats to Corin and Joe and the other writers.

The shippers are not innocent victims. many of them lauched their own shots and barbs. And i speak this from teh point of view of a person that used to be friends with many of the anti-shippers....until i said that i wouldn't participate in the campaign then i was a pariah and made fun of behind my back and not worth talking to because i wouldnt' fall into what they felt i should fall into. I found a home with the shippers simply because they accept me for who i am. I can write adn post sam and teal'c smut and not be banned from thier lists for daring to not fit into their view of who i shoudl be.

so i am not objective and this is not a totally middle of the road interpretation of events. and i'm sure there are plenty of anti-shippers out there with their own tales of woe and their own opinion of just who was 'right' and who was 'wrong'

but i do feel that D&C was the turning point in the fandom and teh beginning of much nastiness between fan groups. a nastiness taht continues today since many of the ardent old time anti-shippers dont' play here, they play over on our stargate and the sony forums. and the reputation of those places speak for themselves

[Rogue]

Nope, she didn't go into detail at all about them. Here is what she said in that portion of the article:

"It is a different show, there's no denying this is not the SG-1 that we started with. A lot of things have changed, even just by virtue of the fact that we have a five-member team, that's a different format for us and it changes the dynamic of the team. I go online every once and again and I'll read something rather disparaging about myself and it's usually something catty and kinda nasty and I get my feelings hurt, honest to God. On many occasions my husband has come into the office and seen me sitting at the computer crying, going, 'You're not reading online again, are you?' And usually 90% of the stuff is really great and 10% of the stuff is not so nice. And I, of course, focus on the 10 per cent that's not nice!"

Judging from the way she said "catty" and "kinda nasty" I wouldn't doubt that some (or most?) could be those comparing the two women's looks.

AT is a very beautiful woman with a smile that lights up a room. I have heard nothing but good things about AT. When people make those types of remarks it comes from jealousy and insecurity.

[JessM]

good point. ok, people from all but one fan group, two if you count s/j shippers separate from sam fans, will hate sam. some of them anyway

to each his/her own

I'm going to ask a stupid question...

Does being a Sam fan require that you be a S/J shipper as well? I've always considered myself a big Sam fan but I don't ship her with Jack (and I've gotten flamed for it) so I hope that's not a problem.

[Skydiver]

Same here. I hope we get to see some of it in the remaining Daniel-free episodes, and looks like we may get a chance to see her interact with others in

Spoiler:

Bad Guys

if just for a while.

It would also be great to see this in the dvd movies, but I think it's clear we'll have Vaniel for the Ori one. I hope it'll be different for the time travel one though.

the near certainty that the first movie will be the Vaniel Adoration Hour is what leaves me cold about it. I have never been a fan of shanks, and i can't stand when vala is his appendage, so there's nothing there to interest me. Even less with the knowledge that it'll be Bori focused. I dont' know if it's possible for them to cram any more distasteful stuff in one 90 minute period

I enjoyed vala in uninvited - even as her incessant speaking out of turn got really old really fast, simply because we got to see more of her than the otehr half of Vaniel.

she got to do something different, explore something different adn it was fun

but then MS came back and Vaniel returned and my interest waned and it wanes to the point that i just duck my head behind the screen of my lappy and zone out until one of the other three characters are permitted to speak

[Skydiver]

I'm going to ask a stupid question...

Does being a Sam fan require that you be a S/J shipper as well? I've always considered myself a big Sam fan but I don't ship her with Jack (and I've gotten flamed for it) so I hope that's not a problem.

nope.

Check out samanda, many of the sam fans are not s&j shippers.

what i dislike the most is that so few writers write gen sam. do yuo have any idea how hard it is to find a sam centric fic that's not also sam/jack?

unfortunately, most of this fandom's 'gen' writers (and i use that term loosely) interpret 'gen' as Daniel and his cohorts, thus sam doesn't fare very well in traditional 'gen' fic. she only seems to have a significant role in s&j ship fic

[JessM]

If you don't mind me asking, what question was she asked in the interview that led her to make these comments?

I can't remember exactly, but it had to do with how she finds the show to be now.

I think that almost all the actors could feel bad if they read online comments. I hope that none of them do. CB and BB I think know that their characters have not been 100% appreciated by fans. And CJ must wonder why Teal'c is hardly talked about at all. It seems that Daniel might get the least amount of criticism these days, but some say this was not true several years ago. Weir and Teyla seem to get a lot of criticism as well. I think online fandom is not a good place to come for any actor!

What is important is the success of the show over the years. Hopefully AT knows that she has a very large and loyal fanbase and that many many fans appreciate her contribution to the success of Stargate SG-1 as Sam Carter.

I think CB did make some remark in passing about criticism of her character... can't remember what it was. I do remember there was a lot of criticism directed at MS for coming back, mostly (or at least in part) from Jonas fans who thought MS had so much gall to return and kick poor Corin to the curb.

I hope she knows as well. I know there was a large card that people were planning to present her with at GABIT - that people could sign to show their appreciation. I signed it along with a friend last spring.

[JessM]

More on topic, did Tapping make any comment about her role in the second half of s10? I was disappointed that Sam didn't have much to do in the first half and I was wondering if TPTB realized this and were going to correct it before the end.

She didn't really say anything except talk about an ep or two later in the season where she has a bigger role. And she also mentioned how different the dynamic seems to be.

[Skydiver]

I think CB did make some remark in passing about criticism of her character... can't remember what it was. I do remember there was a lot of criticism directed at MS for coming back, mostly (or at least in part) from Jonas fans who thought MS had so much gall to return and kick poor Corin to the curb.

.

at least with claudia, that i have seen, teh crit has been about VALA, not her.

amanda has been the victim of peopel whining about her hair, speculating on whether she's too fat, taking her to task for being too skinny, witching on the hair again and any laundry list of things.

[JessM]

I think because as a whole the Daniel fan base was more unified. That’s starting to change from what I’ve seen. Vala is cracking it down the middle. There’s those Daniel fans that love her and the changes we’ve seen in Daniel the last couple of years.

And there are the older “not true Daniel” fans like me that really prefer the Daniel from seasons past. You know the Daniel that believed that violence should be always be the last alternative. That used to get upset when he had to kill someone (not joke about it like he does now days) and would prefer lugging his books to ammo around. Daniel in his earlier days was a scientist first and reluctant hero second... But a hero none the less.

BUT I’m a woman with issues and not ‘a true Daniel fan’. So I’m told.

As for the criticism of Weir, she deserves it. But this is not the tread for my reasons why.

Great analysis. I'm getting told the same thing. Over at the Daniel/MS Thunk thread I've been made fun of for posting pictures of the "old" Daniel and saying I liked him better. Luckily it's not malicious and there are other people there who feel the same way I do. But I have seen other sites where they pull the 'not a true Daniel fan' stuff - because Daniel is so much better now and Vala has brought so much life into him. She makes him, as Harlan might say, BET-TER! And anyone who doesn't agree has issues ... or something like that.

(again not saying all fans of this type are like that - just ones I've run into in various places)

[Rogue]

at least with claudia, that i have seen, teh crit has been about VALA, not her.

amanda has been the victim of peopel whining about her hair, speculating on whether she's too fat, taking her to task for being too skinny, witching on the hair again and any laundry list of things.

comming from people hiding behind a computer screen.

[JessM]

I'm a Jack/Daniel slasher but I love Sam too. I do like Jack and Sam's friendship though to be honest I don't like it when they include ship on the show. But in any case, I don't understand the slashers that dislike Sam especially since Daniel and Sam clearly love each other so there's no reason to pit the characters against each other. Of course it goes both ways because I've also seen Jack/Sam shippers that dislike Daniel and will pull apart any Jack/Daniel scene they see.

I have seen that as well - not very often but once or twice (no offense intended against S/J shippers here... it was not from any of you that I heard these comments from). I also don't understand why some slashers dislike Sam. It's not as if Sam is Daniel's nemesis or the other way around. They have a mutual respect for one another and have always been comfortable with one another (though recently I've been questioning that - esp. in this season).

Unfortunately though since we're talking about Amanda being hurt by mean comments...if she's referencing comments that are aimed at her rather than her character then it may have even been from people who do like her character. Because I've seen some Jack/Sam shippers who have made some very rude and uncalled for comments towards Amanda herself when she has commented on the J/S relationship in a way that differs from the way that shipper sees it (I remember one recent time being where some people tore her apart for saying that she liked David DeLuise's kisses on the 200th episode special.) Fandom can be so harsh sometimes and while I don't care for certain characters, I'd like to think that I don't allow myself to get personal towards that actor playing them.

I agree - it's important to separate the actor from the character. On the other side of the coin, there were a few people in the Sam/Daniel group I belong to that were annoyed about a comment AT made in a SciFi chat a few years ago. She had said something to the effect of her and Michael having that brother-sister dynamic. Anyway one or two people in that group got up in arms because it seemed to be the same "they're brother and sister" mantra that's been heard from other shippers or anti-shipppers. It turned out that they took the quote out of context and thought Amanda was referring to the characters, when she was referring to her and Michael as actors. Everyone was okay with that because time and again she has talked about how Michael is like a little brother to her.