S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ParadoxRealities]

So Jonas himself isn't a problem, just the fact that he was there when Daniel wasn't?

jonas REPLACED daniel. if jonas hadn't been so stupid, daniel wouldn't have died. why would jack let someone like that on the team??! or something like that.

Is this that thing about Jack not being allowed to be close to more than one person and Sam being villified because of Jack caring about her? Is Sam seen as such a threat that she has to be recast as "The B|tch"?

I don't get that.

personally, i stopped reading it. but i do think it turned up more in slash the other stuff, but its just the history. if you really what the run down, i think its in "Whinge" Nuts. or BJC. or rage. ...somewhere.

[suse]

the chocolate ones really amuse me. personally, i'd be much worse if my teammates tried to do that to me. i'd go from embarrassed to pissed "reg, i will not hit them, i will not him them, there's a reg, there MUST be a reg, i will not hit them" VERY quickly.

Well I've been told - admittedly by a woman boss - to go get chocolate (actually yellow M&Ms). And yes, 20 minutes later I was fine. Though I'm not so sure that didn't have to do more with blood sugar that something else.

I'd kill someone if I was already in that state and was offered chocolate. I can bring my own darnit! Though offering a chocolate dessert out of an MRE at dinner would be acceptable. Even considered nice, not placating the ravening B#*&h.

I really hope S10 is better than S9. Though I'm really afraid I'm getting my hopes up. I hate feeling this way. Which is why I gave S10 a deadline. I'm not putting myself thru 8 months of hoping the next ep will be better.


Suse

[suse]

If TPTB had problems figuring out what to do with Sam, they have only themselves to blame. Her character is one of the best, if not the best TV characters it has ever been my pleasure to watch.

Between Soldier Sam commanding her team and adjusting to a new CO, one who is still an unknown quantity, Scientist Sam who is both blessed with an ability to think up solutions to almost every problem and burdened by the expectations that she will always succeed in doing the impossible, Friend Sam, whose interactions with her teammates and with others have always been a joy to watch, Human Sam who makes mistakes, recognizes the consequences and tries her best to deal with them and every other side of Sam you can think of, they had no shortage of material to work with.

Factor in the incredible actress who plays her and there is no excuse whatsoever for them not to know what to do with either Sam or Amanda.

And they know she can act anything they throw at her. Look at Gemini. She was incredible- even if the story wasn't.

Suse

[the dancer of spaz]

That combination (in slashes) sounds like it'd hurt.

Suse

For Jack, Daniel and Jonas... Yes.

Oh wow... That gutter...ness must be contagious.


In fantasy land, I would've loved to see Jack/Sam/Teal'c/Daniel/Jonas for S7 and S8, but I honestly think RL issues on the set and behind the scenes made such an arrangement impossible. It was started by various factors (won't get into), it was escalated by fans and other factors (won't get into), and pretty much encouraged by those in charge...

Their logic was faulty then ("We simply can't have a five-member team"), but it's made all the more laughable by the fact that they turned around and created a five-member team a few years later. Excuses, excuses.

[ParadoxRealities]

I'd kill someone if I was already in that state and was offered chocolate. I can bring my own darnit! Though offering a chocolate dessert out of an MRE at dinner would be acceptable. Even considered nice, not placating the ravening B#*&h.

that would be ok. especially if they didn't hint as to why. that way i can pretend they're blind and its just a happy coincidence.

I really hope S10 is better than S9. Though I'm really afraid I'm getting my hopes up. I hate feeling this way. Which is why I gave S10 a deadline. I'm not putting myself thru 8 months of hoping the next ep will be better.

i say we draw straws, short straw has to watch 'em all and report to the others what scenes/lines they can watch. deal? good. now then, i pick a long straw.

[Albion]

The tragedy of Jonas was that - a taste of things to come in S9 - TPTB simply never got to grips with blending him into the team properly or handled his character properly.

The issues that Jack had with him were more or less resolved in Descent (in fact the episode, partly, was designed to end those issues and prove that Jonuas was someone Jack could trust to watch his six and save his team when the chips were down) and that would have been fine if it had ended there. But thereafter, they seemed to change their minds and decide they didn't want Jack to accept Jonuas that quickly, so we had this curious mix for the rest of the season where Jack accepted him, Jack didn't accept him, Jack was okay with him, Jack deliberately kept him off a team mission, despite there being no sound reason for him not to be with them...right up to Prophecy, we were STILL mired in 'Jack doesn't think much of Jonas' issues. This constant reset of their relationship - such as it was - didn't help integrate poor Jonas at all.

And TPTB made very little attempt to make Jonas his own man. He was far too much like Daniel and given no real chance to forge his own identity. When I heard on one of the later DVD commentaries that TPTB didn't notice how alike Jonas and Daniel were as characters until they actually saw them on screen together in Homecoming, I laughed like a drain. (Much as I did when I heard on the S7 DVD that no one noticed the UST between Jack and Sam until Out of Mind ) Come on! What, were they wearing dark glasses on the set for an entire season?

For all that, I liked Jonas. I thought his character was poorly managed and never given a chance to show his potential. Also, S6 just never seemed right to me and although it has many episodes I enjoy I always watch them with the sensation that something is missing and find myself wondering how each would have panned out had it been Daniel present instead of Jonas. But I definitely wouldn't have minded Jonas being kept on after Daniel's return. And I still think the 'bye now, don't let the Gate hit your ass on the way out' farewell they gave him truly sucked. Although considering the 'farewell' (Har!) they gave Jack in S9 it doesn't look so rushed now.

Albion

[smurf]

i think its more like Jonas isn't evil unless he's replacing Daniel.

I remember reading a load of posts saying they should have brought back Nyam (? Daniel's alien research assistant) and they would have accepted him without trouble, and thinking; no you wouldn't, because he would still be "taking" Daniel/MS's place. *shrug*

Is this that thing about Jack not being allowed to be close to more than one person and Sam being villified because of Jack caring about her? Is Sam seen as such a threat that she has to be recast as "The B|tch"?

I don't get that.

It's funny seeing them perceived like children in a playground. "He can't be your friend cos he's my friend."
Especially when the show is (was) all about the team, and most of the uniqueness of it is in their interactions.

[Skydiver]

Wouldn't it also be pretty disturbing for poor Sam to realize that one of her teammates apparently pays enough attention to her cycle to know when these tampons will be needed? Or does Daniel carry them around all the time to be on the safe side, just in case Sam forgets?

By the way, does anybody know where the idea of Daniel as an abused child came from? Is it purely a fanon idea? I don't remember any suggestion on the show.

well, all the boys have been married. and they all know hte facts of life

i doubt they'd ever confront her over it or make mention of it...but they'd know. If you've lived with PMS for 15 years (the time folks guestimate that jack was married to sara, 10-15 years) you know the signs.

like i've made mention in fic, i doubt that they do uni-sex pit stops. they'd each take their turn in the bushes so there'd be nothing obvious.

as to abused daniel...PURE FANON.

yes, he went into foster care. he was likely a ward of hte state of New York since that's where his parents were killed. And since nick wouldn't adopt him and likely didn't surrender his rights as family, i doubt he was adoptable. so he grew up a foster child.

i think that's why - to me - he can be so emotionally disconnected. He grew up with no family. so grew up a loner

[Skydiver]

Daniel could not possibly be that naive. Idealistic, ready to believe the best, sure. But I think I like your idea of him better. It's so much more real. end fangirl moment But I franlkly don't find much Daniel-centric fic intersting. I even had to fight thru yours. Fairly even distribution of team is fine. Too much Daniel = snack time. :-/

On that note: That's why I had problems with S9. I didn't like what was done to Daniel eps 1-5, and 19. I found it unrealistic. And demeaning. And sexual harassment.

Suse

i have to admit, any more, i dont' read daniel fic. haven't for years. Now if i know the author and someone can guarantee me that it'll be the 'real' daniel, not Saint DAniel with the limpid blue eyes, fair hair, selfless heart and needing big old jack to protect him from sacrificing himself at every turn, sure i might give it a try

I also don't tend to read cameron or vala fic. or any combo of the three. None of the charcters do very much for me. Which, i'm sure, is one reason why so much of s9 and the spoilers for s10 do not strike me as enticing (yes, i can get it back on topic)....there is such an extreme focus - to the exclusion of anyone and everyone else - that i'm like 'well dang, i don't want to watch the vala sexual harrassment hour and see how many tight shots they can get of her boobs. nor am i in the mood for cambo and stories about gamma, so maybe i'll watch Close to Home instead and just watch the tape when i can fast forward...or i'll hold off and read the transcripts or see what other fans feel before i waste an hour of my life

It all goes back to my biggest beef. TOO NARROW OF A FOCUS

everything they do seems to be geared towards only one part of the fandom or for fans of only one character. which is great for them...but pretty much tells the other 4/5th of the fandom to go screw themselves cause they just don't matter this week

[smurf]

LOL

you want to write a fic that no one reads???? write a daniel centric fic and not be a member of the HC/slash crowd. I've noticed, if i write a fic and i put DAniel's name in the synopsis or state that it's about him, fewer people read it than if i write a sam or sam/jack or sam/teal'c fic.

I think characterization was part of my issue with daniel in the beginning. I see him as a worldly man, certainly as well traveled as jack if not better. intelligent, savvy and, yes, a bit high maintenance. He's used to being on his own or working soliatary and isn't used to a tight rein and discipline

many daniel fans like to accentuate his innocence, his naivete. they like to make him selfless, caring, sweet and adored. he's the guy that carries extra tampons for sam in his vest (yes, i've read that in fic...now honestly, don't you think that sam would DIE before she has daniel carry tampons for her????)

since much of the fic i was reading had this idealized daniel in it, i could never connect with him. My daniel is always darker than they like. He has an edge to him. and while he may not be as much 'glass is half empty' as jack is, daniel is a rather practical man whose main failing is looking short term instead of the long term ramifications of his actions

If it wasn't bad enough that I dislike the Daniel of the show, I loathe most versions of Daniel in fic.
To me he isn't a weak man, nor is he young and innocent, and he absolutely is not some pure-hearted saint who allows himself to be trodden on until everyone around him notices how sweet and caring he is wherein they fall madly in love with him and want to protect him.
Or something.

As for the bolded part; thank you, I've been trying to get straight in my head how to tackle the delightful Dr. Jackson, and that helps a lot. Sadly, on the show it also causes an element I dislike about him. That from episode to episode, for all his so called moral-centre status, he's incredibly inconsistant in what he finds morally acceptable.

[smurf]

The tragedy of Jonas was that - a taste of things to come in S9 - TPTB simply never got to grips with blending him into the team properly or handled his character properly.
<snipped for length >

It's funny, I see him as significantly not like Daniel. Although he fulfilled the same translator role he had a distinct personality. He was a pragmatic dreamer (yes I know slight contradiction) to Daniel's idealist. He was warmly up to Daniel's slightly cold down.

Before the start of S9 I would have given the writers big props for how well they did in blending the Jonas as part of the team. I can see that his backstory is completely underwritten, and if you particularly like the Jack/Daniel dynamic (or think it is central) then with Jack not quite accepting him he remained very much an outsider. And Prophecy should have come much earlier in the season. But as a person and a team member he worked.
But after S9 I'm slowly acknowledging that no, barring one or two of the writers, TPTB don't make an effort in making a new character unique. They rely heavily on the actor bringing something (or everything) to the table, and, a fan of CN though I am, I had never really thought that almost everything I like about the character is in the acting and the unspoken interactions between all the characters.
I suppose I should have done seeing as Frozen may well be my favourite S6 episode. Frozen, where the dialogue is pure Daniel, but for me the character was definitely Jonas.


Also, in fic with Jonas (those few) I notice that at least half (of the ones not attuned to Jonas hating) cast him in a similar poor, sweet innocent light as Daniel. So not just the B@B having trouble writing the character.

[suse]

that would be ok. especially if they didn't hint as to why. that way i can pretend they're blind and its just a happy coincidence.

i say we draw straws, short straw has to watch 'em all and report to the others what scenes/lines they can watch. deal? good. now then, i pick a long straw.

:::suse draws short straw but finds another to glue to it:: <<eeeg>

Suse

[Skydiver]

As for the bolded part; thank you, I've been trying to get straight in my head how to tackle the delightful Dr. Jackson, and that helps a lot. Sadly, on the show it also causes an element I dislike about him. That from episode to episode, for all his so called moral-centre status, he's incredibly inconsistant in what he finds morally acceptable.

little things like need. yes, he was the hero and saved shyla. but in doing so he exposed his whole team and almost got htem killed. short term, good thing, long term? not so good

that was the most obvious example and yes, it can be also attributed to early in the show naivete.

he's no 'moral center'. no more so than any of the others. He just brings a different point of view to the whole thing. he is the only civilian and does bring that into it. he does tend to bring the focus down to the 'little guys' instead of the group as a whole...is that better? depends.

teal'c did the same thing with Nyan in New Ground. He made the connection with the local that got his team out of trouble.

One thing that i liked about Jonas was - despite the whole 'i read all the mission reports' stuff - he was the exposition starter.

every episode needs someone to ask those stupid but plot moving questions (who was adrian conrad? where did this come from? who is that?, etc)

for much of s5, that fell to jack and it made him look kinda silly to be acting like he didn't remember a mission he led last year. but with jonas there, it worked for him to ask questions.

is jonas an innocent little virgin??? no. I do think he was more naive than daniel. Daniel likely spent most of his life, before his parents died, living all over the world. he probably logged more frequent flyer miles than jack. he'd have a wider ethnic base (As in exposed to more lifestyles). I don't think Jonas did that. I think jonas lived a rather cloistered life. I think in Langaran society, smart kids were segregated and educated for the good of the govt. and a way to keep control over them is to keep thier knowledge base narrow.

so, in some ways, i think jonas was more innocent than daniel. not stupid, and not dumb, just not as widely traveled

[Mr Prophet]

so, in some ways, i think jonas was more innocent than daniel. not stupid, and not dumb, just not as widely traveled

The way I always saw it, Daniel was the researcher and the field worker; Jonas was a scholar.

[Skydiver]

yeah. jonas was book learning and daniel was field work

jonas, in my interpretation, rarely left the school and had very little knowledge of the world as a whole (certainly nothing beyond his own planet) whereas daniel, even before he went through the gate for the first time, was very well traveled.

I think that's why he was more accepting of the different cultures they encountered. not necessarily because he was more moral but just because, having been exposed to so many over his life time, they wre less strange to him