S10: Critique & Contemplation

[slurredspeech]

For example in Shades of Grey who questioned Sam not being the leader of SG-1 after Jack left it wasn't Sam it was Daniel the Air Force would notice stuff like that and it would be in her file she is not assertive when it comes to military stuff unlike her science stuff.

First of all, in that particular episode - that particular situation - I believe her reaction wasn't unassertive, it was smart. The AF made their decision and put the Colonel Rogue in command; Carter was meeting her new CO; she didn't want to cause trouble for herself and declare she didn't agree with their decision. No officer - no soldier - in their right mind would go saying those things in front of their CO. For all she knew, this guy would be her boss for years to come. Besides, that kind of behaviour would have been borderline insubordinate, no matter how nicely worded. And Carter is nothing if not by-the-book.

Secondly. How we see Carter is less relevant in the Carter vs Mitchell debate than the simple fact of experience and competence in regards to the job at hand. Carter was more competent in every way to lead SG-1. Mitchell wasn't, in any shape or form. The Air Force would have made their decision based on that.

[Ashizuri]

So whenever she corrected someone about her rank when she got promoted was what...? Her being embarrassed by being an officer? I distinctly remember her saying that she couldn't imagine not being in the AF, how is that not caring about her military side? In SoG she had the common sense to realize that she didn't fulfill the conditions required to be the leader of the premier team. Shame that can't be said about others ( like Landry and Mitchell). She didn't turn down the opportunity to lead SG1 in S8. Sure she doubted herself, but a little self-doubt keeps a person on their toes and alert, while someone who believes that they do everything right ends up getting himself and those around him/her in trouble (like OtG)

Great point. I hadn't even thought about that.

I also vaguely recall that she was not at all pleased to be removed from field duty in Chain Reaction. I'm sure some of that was her distress at being forced to make a doomsday weapon, but I'm just as sure that some of it was anger at losing her team.

Sam wants to get ahead in the military world, I imagine she's aiming for general, and field and command experience are absolute musts.

[EvenstarSRV]

First of all, in that particular episode - that particular situation - I believe her reaction wasn't unassertive, it was smart. The AF made their decision and put the Colonel Rogue in command; Carter was meeting her new CO; she didn't want to cause trouble for herself and declare she didn't agree with their decision. No officer - no soldier - in their right mind would go saying those things in front of their CO. For all she knew, this guy would be her boss for years to come. Besides, that kind of behaviour would have been borderline insubordinate, no matter how nicely worded. And Carter is nothing if not by-the-book.

Well said.

I'm completely puzzled at the Shades of Grey situation being used to say Sam doesn't care about her military rank. Because to me, her accepting the decision of her superiors without complaint shows that she has complete respect for the chain of command and her place in it. If she had voiced her disapproval like Daniel, then the Air Force would have noted her insubordination and that likely would have been a black mark on her record.

I agree that Sam loves science, and on a personal level it's probably her biggest passion. But that doesn't mean that she doesn't care at all about her military career. Because like I said earlier, if Sam did not care one iota about military advancement, I think she never would have joined the Air Force.

Secondly. How we see Carter is less relevant in the Carter vs Mitchell debate than the simple fact of experience and competence in regards to the job at hand. Carter was more competent in every way to lead SG-1. Mitchell wasn't, in any shape or form. The Air Force would have made their decision based on that.

Good point, wanting/not wanting the job matters far less than being qualified for it.

[Crazedwraith]

I'd like the point out that the vaunted 'training program' that Mitchell didn't go through was seen in all of one episode and as far as we saw was sole restricted to new recruits that came direct from the Air Force Academy.

It's also worth pointing out that in Children of the Gods, they created 9 SG teams. Two of those were commanded by O'Neill and Kowalski, the only two officers (discounting Ferreti who was out of action) with Gate experience. The other seven officers would have been appointed having no gate experience at all. I imagine the first time most of them saw the gate was right before they stepped through it on their first missions.

Of course that situation and Mitchell's appointment are completely different kettles of fish but it still makes you think...

---

Now something Duskofdeath said, that I most definitely did not agree with was that the Ori were needed because the goa'uld plot ended in 'Threads.' That's not really true, to use a real world example, that like's saying the War In Iraq ended the moment Saddam Hussein was captured.

Sure the System Lords were defeated. This would have thrown the galaxy into chaos with the free jaffa nations and other independent factions suddenly ballooning in size, power and territory and suddenly coming in to conflict with each other. And even with the System Lords defeated there must be hundreds of minor goa'uld still kicking about trying to survive. And lets not forget there's a massive population of goa'uld still around; In Jaffa pouches. Considering Earth is the only producer of tretonin that we know of there must be massive numbers of jaffa that don't or can't use. So there is a constant thread of a goa'uld return.

Even if they didn't go that route and wanted a new 'big bad' race. The Ori are still a terrible idea. "Terrible invaders from outside the galaxy!" Pretty much the epitome of cliche and shows that the writers don't comprehend just how big even a single galaxy is. Even the worlds we've seen in eight year should barely scratch the surface of what could be out there in the milky way.

The Orii also continue the terrible trend in stargate that everything has the be linked to either the ancient or the ascended plot lines. I'm so sick of them inventing another era on ancients when they want to introduce a new plot device.

What happened the Four great races eh? Why do we never find something the nox built when they were younger and did not always do as they were told? What dark secrets to the Asgard have? Can we please see some Furlings?

Heck, Furling baddies would be preferable to the Orii, at least that wouldn't reley in the ancients again. And it would introduce some nice conflict where the Asgard would be unable (or better still unwilling) to help us due to old Alliance obligations.

[suse]

Interestingly enough, I'm fairly inclined to think that being nasty was a part of Daniel's personality all along, going by his dream in Absolute Power and the fact that he can be incredibly narrow-minded and arrogant at times. The big difference for me was that in the early seasons he was always operating in a team of individuals who respected him, his space, and the job at hand. He got frustrated, snippy and downright rude at times, but he was never in a constant state of distress/panic/annoyance/frustration so his occassional jerkiness was balanced by the fact that he was, in normal situations, a pretty nice guy.

His dynamic with Vala was one that always had him at the edge of his patience so that occassional jerkiness that we had seen from him before became the defining aspect of his personality in those last seasons. I always thought it was odd TPTB went that direction with him because who roots for a character that is consistantly rude and belittling? So, yeah, I didn't think it came out of nowhere, but I did think that he lost most of his redeeming qualities when they chose to focus on the Daniel/Vala "we are the most immature people on the planet" playground dynamic.

Though, the physically aggressive aspect of his personality was both new and unwelcome.

Even is S1 he had the snark. Not to the degree that Jack did, but it was there. Different styles. In S6 when he descended (Full Circle) he was *quite* rude to Sam. No idea why. I just chalked it up to a cut scene. After listening tot he commentaries, that didn't seem to be the case though. It was there, just not all the time.

suse

[suse]

I am loving this discussion Duskofdead I totally agree with you 100% season 9 and 10 had their bad points but not more than the previous 8 seasons. Some of you do know me from other discussions we have had on this topic I have issues with what some of you say about Sam as someone who has female relatives who are scientists and engineers trust me when I tell you a female running a major research and development lab/base is a big deal. Was Sam a good soldier yes did she serve with honor yes but her science was always her passion what she was always assertive about her military/rank not so much only when it was an emergency. For example in Shades of Grey who questioned Sam not being the leader of SG-1 after Jack left it wasn't Sam it was Daniel the Air Force would notice stuff like that and it would be in her file she is not assertive when it comes to military stuff unlike her science stuff. I have to go I will pick this up tomorrow.

Just perhaps Sam didn't question it because she knew that a mere Major woudl never get the flagship team. So wouldn't even bother questioning it. But to not question why she didn't get the lead of *a* team, much less her old team *which she led before*, but got sent to exactly the same position she served in for 7 years before her promotion to lead? Not. A. Chance.

suse

[Skydiver]

a lot of daniel's compassion and empathy didn't descend with him

it's like they were trying so hard to make daniel tough and strong and 'manly' that they forgot that those personality traits don't equate with snark, rudeness and nastiness

daniel was, to me, mostly always manly. he just wasn't the 'oozing testosterone' manliness of teal'c. he was a nice guy.

but, imho, they tried so hard to make him 'tough' that they left out the special bits that made him daniel

[EvenstarSRV]

I'd like the point out that the vaunted 'training program' that Mitchell didn't go through was seen in all of one episode and as far as we saw was sole restricted to new recruits that came direct from the Air Force Academy.

It's also worth pointing out that in Children of the Gods, they created 9 SG teams. Two of those were commanded by O'Neill and Kowalski, the only two officers (discounting Ferreti who was out of action) with Gate experience. The other seven officers would have been appointed having no gate experience at all. I imagine the first time most of them saw the gate was right before they stepped through it on their first missions.

Of course that situation and Mitchell's appointment are completely different kettles of fish but it still makes you think...

Good points, but this was in the beginning of the program, so it makes sense that the leaders of all of the teams wouldn't have had gate experience, though they did make sure that the first two teams had the most experienced leaders.

The way I see this situation relating to Mitchell is that after the SGC had been running for so long, it didn't make sense to me to have an inexperienced-in-gate travel team leader, when the pool of experienced officers had expanded since COTG.

I do agree re the Ori and the Ancients. An idea I've toyed with is what if Ba'al had become the main villain in S9 and 10, with a better developed Lucian Alliance being the secondary enemy. Vala could have been a criminal SG-1 came across while undercover in Ba'al's territory, and she'd helped them at times and then leave to pursue her own agendas.

And the Lucian Alliance storyline could be tied more into the Jaffa Nation one, where they compete for control over previously Goa'uld occupied worlds, with the SGC perhaps debating if they should be meddling in their affairs but also wanting to help their Jaffa allies.

[Skydiver]

agreed

in the first 4-5 years of the show, dude extraterrestrial travel was new thus impossible for anyone to have any experience. but after 9 years? there should have been 20+ teams worth of officers ready to move up in the ranks that cam zoomed in front of.

If i'd replaced the Ori with someone, yeah, the Lucian Alliance, minor goa'uld and others would have featured. the death of the goa'uld left a huge power void and all sorts of unsavory folks would have zoomed in to take it. ba'al would never have been cloned and would have been ticked off at the sgc for some reason, thus reversing the 'reluctant allies' angle they took at the end of season 8. he'd go back to being cruel and mean and a real adversary. we'd have teh power hungry adn cruel lucian alliance, minor goa'ulds trying to take over planets, even a go'auld or two needing to be 'saved' as their peopel turned on them.

vala/qetesh would play a bigger role and not just be arm candy and a visual joke. she'd be a real player in this mess.

the ori were - in my opinion - a poorly contrived social commentary that was never fully developed adn got lost in the endless 'quest to find a quick fix' aspect teh show took in the later years

[Mr Prophet]

The advantage of the Lucian Alliance and the minor Goa'uld would be that you can increase the challenge without cranking the power levels up to 11. The SGC have always been able to take on the Goa'uld because, although they can't go toe-to-toe with any one Goa'uld's armies, each Goa'uld builds a personality cult which is vulnerable to assassination or similar black ops strikes.

The Lucian Alliance or a more scattered Goa'uld threat would take a lot more manpower to fight, requiring all that neat interstellar diplomacy they skated over with the Jaffa Council and their exciting slides from one side to another. It's a whole new ball game, without all that glowing and pseudo-divine wrath.

[Skydiver]

not to mention being incredibly 'human' in their battle techniques, devious, conniving, double crossing and, honestly, if they wanted to do an analogy to real world issues with fundamentalists and terrorists, etc, the lucian alliance et al would be a far more understandable foe than glow in the dark aliens sapping prayer power.

[jckfan55]

Interestingly enough, I'm fairly inclined to think that being nasty was a part of Daniel's personality all along, going by his dream in Absolute Power and the fact that he can be incredibly narrow-minded and arrogant at times. The big difference for me was that in the early seasons he was always operating in a team of individuals who respected him, his space, and the job at hand. He got frustrated, snippy and downright rude at times, but he was never in a constant state of distress/panic/annoyance/frustration so his occassional jerkiness was balanced by the fact that he was, in normal situations, a pretty nice guy.


Though, the physically aggressive aspect of his personality was both new and unwelcome.

Interesting. I can see your point there.

Interesting perspective on Daniel, looking at it this way does make his some of his behavior in S9-10 make a bit more sense for me. I think what maybe helped in earlier seasons was that Jack usually called him on it, and when he left no one else seemed to do so.

.

Also a good insight. there was more equal counterbalance among the team members, perhaps.

[jckfan55]

I am loving this discussion Duskofdead I totally agree with you 100% season 9 and 10 had their bad points but not more than the previous 8 seasons. Some of you do know me from other discussions we have had on this topic I have issues with what some of you say about Sam as someone who has female relatives who are scientists and engineers trust me when I tell you a female running a major research and development lab/base is a big deal. Was Sam a good soldier yes did she serve with honor yes but her science was always her passion what she was always assertive about her military/rank not so much only when it was an emergency. For example in Shades of Grey who questioned Sam not being the leader of SG-1 after Jack left it wasn't Sam it was Daniel the Air Force would notice stuff like that and it would be in her file she is not assertive when it comes to military stuff unlike her science stuff. I have to go I will pick this up tomorrow.

So whenever she corrected someone about her rank when she got promoted was what...? Her being embarrassed by being an officer? I distinctly remember her saying that she couldn't imagine not being in the AF, how is that not caring about her military side? In SoG she had the common sense to realize that she didn't fulfill the conditions required to be the leader of the premier team. Shame that can't be said about others ( like Landry and Mitchell). She didn't turn down the opportunity to lead SG1 in S8. Sure she doubted herself, but a little self-doubt keeps a person on their toes and alert, while someone who believes that they do everything right ends up getting himself and those around him/her in trouble (like OtG)

She wasn't chasing after increased ranks, but she sure seemed mighty pleased to me about every promotion. She didn't have to make an issue of her rank most of the time, but that doesn't mean she didn't care. She is a career officer.

[poundpuppy29]

Yes she was pleased and she served with honor but it was not her passion why I say this do you remember Spirits from season 2 when she led the team because Jack was hurt she did not impress me she was a fish out of water AT was wonderful she showed vulnerability that we had not seen with Sam she was unsure and uncomfortable Sam has never had that problem with her science stuff 48 hours, Chain Reaction I could go on. In Season 8 the episode Icon when Daniel was trapped on another planet Sam came back and reported to Jack she did not stay there and try to get him as a military leader she doesn't have the same presence as a scientific leader

The point I am trying to make is some of you give me the impression that that Sam was a AF officer who could do science but I think it was the other way around she was scientist who was also in the AF why do I say that as some one who lives with someone who is a scientist in training (my sister is a computer programmer still in college) they are a different than us normal humans it is a drive with them so for Sam to get her PH.D tells me that science is her passion why did she join the military well here in the U.S. the military is the largest college scholarship provider and when my sister was still in HS she had to take the military test and got a high score on some part of it that had to do with science and they heavily recruited her but she refused and when I say heavily recruited they tried several times to get her even when she was already in college they tried it was only when she told them off on the phone did they stop. Sam loved her country there is no doubt but I don't think she was screwed out of the SG-1 leader job because that was not her goal if she was just military person and not a scientist then yes she was screwed but that was not the case. I must go again hopefully I can do this tomorrow.

[Ashizuri]

The point I am trying to make is some of you give me the impression that that Sam was a AF officer who could do science but I think it was the other way around she was scientist who was also in the AF... <snip> ...I don't think she was screwed out of the SG-1 leader job because that was not her goal if she was just military person and not a scientist then yes she was screwed but that was not the case. I must go again hopefully I can do this tomorrow.

But if Sam was a scientist first, why did she not go back to R&D/Area 51 after the Ori threat was neutralized? Why did she take two different command positions (Altantis and the Hammond) over science?

On one hand, it could be because in the military you don't really get a choice, you go where you superiors send you; where they think you'll do the most good. Interesting then that Sam's superiors thought she had more to offer as a commander than a scientist...on the other, maybe it's because Sam is a career military officer who is proud of her rank and service and wants to continue to climb up the ladder...

Or maybe it's because TPTB had no idea what to do with the character aside from knowing they wanted her out of the way so the shiny new action hero could take command of the team.