S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Mandysg1]

Exactly. I mean even Sam could have been the leader of SG1 in one...oops, that would point out that Sam *had* been in command before & we wouldn't want to remind viewers...

Probably true.

Then again, having Jack there at all would make us want him and the original team saving the day, not the new guy and reconfigured (shadow of its former self) team.

Yea, you can't point out what everyone is missing, how badly the new team compares to the original

[suse]

Yea, you can't point out what everyone is missing, how badly the new team compares to the original

<<cracks up again>>

Not quite everyone, but enough.

Personally, I'm just happy that the last few seasons didn't tarnish what came before for me. Sometimes it's good to know that some of the old PTB left. Makes the differences easier to accept (or not, in this case ) and not have 'the good stuff' tarnished by knowing *my* favorite combinations of PTB didn't produce the what came later.

suse

[Duskofdead]

I think people underestimate how hard it probably was to keep going and invent a new storyline after RDA left the show. Sometimes it almost sounds as if people react to the PTB as if they wrote him out or killed him off because of a contract dispute or something; RDA had wanted to leave for years. I think that BB and CB were in sort of a no-win situation; no matter how well they were written, I still know PLENTY of people who watch a couple episodes of seasons 9-10 and just flatly state "Where's Jack?" and "This new guy sucks, I wish it still had Jack." Even if they only watch one episode. That's what happens when a show has run for 8 years with the same cast, you can't easily just substitute in new people.

I think all things considered it could have been a lot worse. They did a pretty good job with a situation that was really hard to work with, IMHO. And I think that finding some way to make the Goa'uld or past arcs still be the main storyline would have been worse than the Ori arc, since they'd repeatedly written "endings" for the Goa'uld and 8 felt pretty final IMHO.

[suse]

I think people underestimate how hard it probably was to keep going and invent a new storyline after RDA left the show. Sometimes it almost sounds as if people react to the PTB as if they wrote him out or killed him off because of a contract dispute or something; RDA had wanted to leave for years. I think that BB and CB were in sort of a no-win situation; no matter how well they were written, I still know PLENTY of people who watch a couple episodes of seasons 9-10 and just flatly state "Where's Jack?" and "This new guy sucks, I wish it still had Jack." Even if they only watch one episode. That's what happens when a show has run for 8 years with the same cast, you can't easily just substitute in new people.

I think all things considered it could have been a lot worse. They did a pretty good job with a situation that was really hard to work with, IMHO. And I think that finding some way to make the Goa'uld or past arcs still be the main storyline would have been worse than the Ori arc, since they'd repeatedly written "endings" for the Goa'uld and 8 felt pretty final IMHO.

Oh, I didn't have a problem with RDA going. Really. I was rather relieved that they no longer needed to work around his 3.5 day week with every 4th week off schedule. I thought the show would improve. No, I am NOT speaking ill of Rick. I like the guy. I was happy for him that he got to spend more time with the kid as well. Honestly. I didn't take into account his (and Michel Greenburg's) Exective Producing skills. If you listen to the earlier season's commentaries there are plenty of time one of them had them pulll back on things so they didn't go over the top.

I didn't have a problem with them needing a new bad guy. I did have a problem with these *particular* bad guys. I thought the idea was ill-conceived. It also doesn't help that I'm not a fan of the 'ascended beings meddling in the affairs of mortals' storyline.

What offended me was the (seeming) idea that because they now had a new (full-time) leading man as the star that HE was *required* to be the leader of the team. I don't see him as any more popular than the cast of SG-1 - in my experience, I had to tell half/more than half the people I personally know who watched SG-1 exactly who he was. What a lead male action hero star! I'm also not being mean about Ben. I was ready to like his character. Really.

What offended me was the need to sex up the show thru Vala, the need to dumb down the stories to the lowest common demoninator. The need to dumb down *Vala* when they realized in S10 that S9 Vala in untenable. The need to to get laughs thru one character sexually harassing another and having the other take it. Yuk-yuk-yuk.

What offended me was the need to add yet another Farscape lead to SG-1. Yes, I recognise the character is far different from Aeryn. But with Ben as series leader in name and Claudia mostly attached to Michael Shanks side getting the lion's share of the story in deed in early S9 and then in S10 - and TPTB not knowing 'what to do with Sam in S10', though they added Claudia on for 20 eps for S10... <grrrr>.

Overall, I found most of what they did to be much poorer than what came before. Sure, there was some bad stuff before, but it was much rarer. The reverse was the case for the last 2 seasons. Bad stuff with just enough good mixed in to give me hope of improvement. S10 *was* better than S9, but I still wouldn't call it good.

Understand, I don't fault the actors for taking jobs. I fault TPTB for how the actors were "integrated". Imo integrated = shoe-horned in.

Why was it necessary to recreate the show around the male lead? They didn't even 'get the team back together' <<gag>> until after Sam was back. No need for him to be lead.

suse

[Mandysg1]

Oh, I didn't have a problem with RDA going. Really. I was rather relieved that they no longer needed to work around his 3.5 day week with every 4th week off schedule. I thought the show would improve. No, I am NOT speaking ill of Rick. I like the guy. I was happy for him that he got to spend more time with the kid as well. Honestly. I didn't take into account his (and Michel Greenburg's) Exective Producing skills. If you listen to the earlier season's commentaries there are plenty of time one of them had them pulll back on things so they didn't go over the top.

I didn't have a problem with them needing a new bad guy. I did have a problem with these *particular* bad guys. I thought the idea was ill-conceived. It also doesn't help that I'm not a fan of the 'ascended beings meddling in the affairs of mortals' storyline.

What offended me was the (seeming) idea that because they now had a new (full-time) leading man as the star that HE was *required* to be the leader of the team. I don't see him as any more popular than the cast of SG-1 - in my experience, I had to tell half/more than half the people I personally know who watched SG-1 exactly who he was. What a lead male action hero star! I'm also not being mean about Ben. I was ready to like his character. Really.

What offended me was the need to sex up the show thru Vala, the need to dumb down the stories to the lowest common demoninator. The need to dumb down *Vala* when they realized in S10 that S9 Vala in untenable. The need to to get laughs thru one character sexually harassing another and having the other take it. Yuk-yuk-yuk.

What offended me was the need to add yet another Farscape lead to SG-1. Yes, I recognise the character is far different from Aeryn. But with Ben as series leader in name and Claudia mostly attached to Michael Shanks side getting the lion's share of the story in deed in early S9 and then in S10 - and TPTB not knowing 'what to do with Sam in S10', though they added Claudia on for 20 eps for S10... <grrrr>.

Overall, I found most of what they did to be much poorer than what came before. Sure, there was some bad stuff before, but it was much rarer. The reverse was the case for the last 2 seasons. Bad stuff with just enough good mixed in to give me hope of improvement. S10 *was* better than S9, but I still wouldn't call it good.

Understand, I don't fault the actors for taking jobs. I fault TPTB for how the actors were "integrated". Imo integrated = shoe-horned in.

Why was it necessary to recreate the show around the male lead? They didn't even 'get the team back together' <<gag>> until after Sam was back. No need for him to be lead.

suse

And I beleive that sums it up perfectly (for me at least)

[Duskofdead]

Well my point is kind of this: is there some obvious way they could have done all of those things better?

I think in hindsight we can speculate things we each would have subjectively preferred to see happen, but they could have just as easily really messed up some scenario where Sam was put in charge of SG-1, or similar alternate scenarios.

I guess my point is, you can't please everyone.

I agree the Ori were hokey at first, but I thought the Wraith were far worse, and the Wraith were supposed to be the key of an entire series, so I forgave the Ori for being sort of a *rolls eyes* sort of villain for 2 years. So I definitely saw there where "things could have been done much worse for SG-1." No offense to any Wraith lovers, I just thought they sprang full-grown from a graphic novel or "Underworld" or something that just didn't belong in Stargate.

I liked every episode dealing with ascension issues, because it brought the metaphysical issue of good and evil and the moral questions of how to use power responsibly into play. It put humans into perspective as a young, inexperienced race, as opposed to the masters of all who knew everything (which most Sci Fi tends to do with humanity.) And yes even after the Asgard "gift" humans are still young and inexperienced in the big cosmic picture. Though I understand not everyone liked the ascension related stuff, again I just feel many of the alternatives could have been worse. Some totally brand new alien shoehorned in to be the new Goa'uld/Wraith of the series would have been worse, IMHO. At least the Ori built on the existing storyline to a good degree.

[slurredspeech]

Well my point is kind of this: is there some obvious way they could have done all of those things better?

OMG YES. A thousand times, yes.

a) Drop the juvenile humor. It's not working. It's bad. No, really. No. Really.
b) Drop the 'sexy' humor. It's insulting to intelligence of everyone with 5 plus functioning brain cells. Actually, the whole sexying-up of the show? Yeah, lose it.
c) Make the new Hero interesting. Do this by giving him a plausible reason for being there and a strong background. Interesting and complex character traits. If you absolutely have to make him the Leader of SG-1, back it up with solid arguments. Do not, however, brush it off and hope no one will notice. Also, do not make him a weak cross between a White Male Hero of 95% of TV shows and Jack's one-liners.
d) Jack one-liners/ O'Neill-isms are called that for a reason. They're Jack's. This also implies they aren't an inherent trait of either Mitchell, Daniel or Landry, scene-allowing. CUT IT OUT.
e) Sam is military and she's an astrophisicist. Things she is not: dumb, slow, inert, incompetent, wallpaper, giggly, confused, a babysitter, a cheap plot device. Use her often and use her wisely.
f) Teal'c is a complex character with many discernable traits and moral turmoils. He is not a He-Man with a rare brain damage that makes him capable of only uttering two phrases per episode, and shooting a staff at whatever the Hero points at as shootable.
g) Both Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge are phenomenal actors with such a great scope of performing, it blows one's mind. USE THEM WISELY.
h) Claudia Black is capable of doing more than showing off her (admitedly nice) figure. Seriously. The sex? Cut it out.
i) Have I mentioned the lame humor? Just. Stop.
j) What on Earth have you done to Daniel?? (I've ranted about this at length just about everywhere, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice to say... Who the heck abducted Daniel and replaced him with this guy?)
k) Technological supremacy makes for massive fail in the suspense/caring department.
l) In creating the new enemy, give it some thought beyond 'false gods' and 'mighty weapons'.
m) Bounty? Family Ties? WTH?
n) Enough with the bad humor, please!

I guess my point is, you can't please everyone.

Certainly not. But I think, objectively, we can agree that the overall level of writing for those last two seasons was indeed sub par compared to previous seasons. And the ratings kind of prove this.

And I'm also one of the people who doesn't feel this way just because Jack left. I was honestly willing to give it a try. And had they done the transition to the new team, and the new plots, well I'd be all over it. However, sloppy writing and the disservice they had done to the characters (oh, the character assassination; oy ) turned me completely off. It was no longer the SG-1 I knew and loved. Again, not the original team SG-1. Just all the name stood for.

Oh, and my snark is in no way directed at you, I should point out. It's merely my coping mechanism. (How very... dramatic of me. Hah.)

[jasminaGo]

Well my point is kind of this: is there some obvious way they could have done all of those things better?

I think in hindsight we can speculate things we each would have subjectively preferred to see happen, but they could have just as easily really messed up some scenario where Sam was put in charge of SG-1, or similar alternate scenarios.

I guess my point is, you can't please everyone.

I agree the Ori were hokey at first, but I thought the Wraith were far worse, and the Wraith were supposed to be the key of an entire series, so I forgave the Ori for being sort of a *rolls eyes* sort of villain for 2 years. So I definitely saw there where "things could have been done much worse for SG-1." No offense to any Wraith lovers, I just thought they sprang full-grown from a graphic novel or "Underworld" or something that just didn't belong in Stargate.

I liked every episode dealing with ascension issues, because it brought the metaphysical issue of good and evil and the moral questions of how to use power responsibly into play. It put humans into perspective as a young, inexperienced race, as opposed to the masters of all who knew everything (which most Sci Fi tends to do with humanity.) And yes even after the Asgard "gift" humans are still young and inexperienced in the big cosmic picture. Though I understand not everyone liked the ascension related stuff, again I just feel many of the alternatives could have been worse. Some totally brand new alien shoehorned in to be the new Goa'uld/Wraith of the series would have been worse, IMHO. At least the Ori built on the existing storyline to a good degree.

And a lot of alternatives could have been a lot better. So why weren't they? I agree with you that there would always be someone who isn't pleased with how things are done for different reasons. For me it was just the downright drop in the quality of the show, the disregard of the established canon, the reduction of the science part of the show and the increase of the fiction part which in some cases even went into fantasy land, the side-tracking of certain characters in favor of others cause they weren't as fun, TPTB's desperate desire to show Mitchell as the hero, the man, the leader even though he hadn't even seen the Stargate (and don't even get me started on the whole MoH thing), even the humor dropped down to cheesy sexual innuendo and Spaceballs rip-offs. I could have enjoyed the Ori story but even that wasn't done right IMO. They didn't show anything new, that we haven't seen with the Goa'uld. They wanted to conquer the galaxy and everyone to worship them. The only difference was that they were in a different plane of existence and we never really saw them and we never even saw them defeated. We just heard about it. The way they were defeated I can only describe it as lazy story telling. The Ancients just happened to create all this really cool powerful gadgets that no one knows how they work cause they just do that were lying around waiting for SG-1 to find them all (and we get to the fantasy part of the story).

So to answer your first question, yes I think there was a way these season to be better. If TPTB respected the history of the show, if they respected the characters that held the viewer's attention for almost a decade and most of all if they respected the audience enough to at least try to do their scientific research in order to give them something better then few easy fixes masked behind special effects and big explosions. I understand that most of the people have been with the show since the beginning and there are only so many stories that can be told, but if they had trouble with coming up with new material they could have always get someone new, fresh blood, fresh ideas, instead of creating their 'boys club' where everyone gave eachother pats on the back and kept saying how awesome they are, while no one stopped and said 'wait this doesn't make any sense, make it better'. Something that was done in the earlier seasons while MG and RDA were around.


p.s. What SS said ^

[Ashizuri]

OMG YES. A thousand times, yes.

a) Drop the juvenile humor. It's not working. It's bad. No, really. No. Really.
b) Drop the 'sexy' humor. It's insulting to intelligence of everyone with 5 plus functioning brain cells. Actually, the whole sexying-up of the show? Yeah, lose it.
c) Make the new Hero interesting. Do this by giving him a plausible reason for being there and a strong background. Interesting and complex character traits. If you absolutely have to make him the Leader of SG-1, back it up with solid arguments. Do not, however, brush it off and hope no one will notice. Also, do not make him a weak cross between a White Male Hero of 95% of TV shows and Jack's one-liners.
d) Jack one-liners/ O'Neill-isms are called that for a reason. They're Jack's. This also implies they aren't an inherent trait of either Mitchell, Daniel or Landry, scene-allowing. CUT IT OUT.
e) Sam is military and she's an astrophisicist. Things she is not: dumb, slow, inert, wallpaper, giggly, confused, a babysitter, a cheap plot device. Use her often and use her wisely.
f) Teal'c is a complex character with many discernable traits and moral turmoils. He is not a He-Man with a rare brain damage that makes him capable of only uttering two phrases per episode.
g) Both Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge are phenomenal actors with such a great scope of preforming, it blows one's mind. USE THEM WISELY.
h) Claudia Black is capable of doing more than showing off her (admitedly nice) figure. Seriously. The sex? Cut it out.
i) Have I mentioned the lame humor? Just. Stop.
j) What on Earth have you done to Daniel?? (I've ranted about this at length just about everywhere, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice to say... Who the heck abducted Daniel and replaced him with this guy?)
k) Technological supremacy makes for massive fail in the suspense/caring department.
l) In creating the new enemy, give it some thought beyond 'false gods' and 'mighty weapons'.
m) Bounty? Family Ties? WTH?
n) Enough with the bad humor, please!

Have I told you lately that I adore you? Cause, this? It would have made me a happy girl.

Can I add: Make my hero's actually heroic please. Because lame-o plot devices in the form of mystical ancient tech gets frustrating real quick. How about some good old-fashioned human ingenuity. Sam and Daniel are master problem solvers, I mean c'mon, Sam blew up a sun. . .they don't need the quick ancient fix everytime. (Admittedly, this problem, for me, started earlier than season 9)

Also, teamwork. The whole "team gates somewhere then splits up and spends half the episode apart" thing was not great.

[slurredspeech]

Have I told you lately that I adore you?

As a matter of fact, you have not. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I've been feeling a bit neglected lately.

...

*tackles*

How about some good old-fashioned human ingenuity. Sam and Daniel are master problem solvers, I mean c'mon, Sam blew up a sun. . .they don't need the quick ancient fix everytime.

Yes, this. I miss the ingenuity. I miss eager!Carter and excited!Daniel and their busy busy minds. The A-HA moments. Oh how I miss those.

Lazy. The writers simply got lazy.

[hedwig]

OMG YES. A thousand times, yes.

a) Drop the juvenile humor. It's not working. It's bad. No, really. No. Really.
b) Drop the 'sexy' humor. It's insulting to intelligence of everyone with 5 plus functioning brain cells. Actually, the whole sexying-up of the show? Yeah, lose it.
c) Make the new Hero interesting. Do this by giving him a plausible reason for being there and a strong background. Interesting and complex character traits. If you absolutely have to make him the Leader of SG-1, back it up with solid arguments. Do not, however, brush it off and hope no one will notice. Also, do not make him a weak cross between a White Male Hero of 95% of TV shows and Jack's one-liners.
d) Jack one-liners/ O'Neill-isms are called that for a reason. They're Jack's. This also implies they aren't an inherent trait of either Mitchell, Daniel or Landry, scene-allowing. CUT IT OUT.
e) Sam is military and she's an astrophisicist. Things she is not: dumb, slow, inert, incompetent, wallpaper, giggly, confused, a babysitter, a cheap plot device. Use her often and use her wisely.
f) Teal'c is a complex character with many discernable traits and moral turmoils. He is not a He-Man with a rare brain damage that makes him capable of only uttering two phrases per episode, and shooting a staff at whatever the Hero points at as shootable.
g) Both Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge are phenomenal actors with such a great scope of performing, it blows one's mind. USE THEM WISELY.
h) Claudia Black is capable of doing more than showing off her (admitedly nice) figure. Seriously. The sex? Cut it out.
i) Have I mentioned the lame humor? Just. Stop.
j) What on Earth have you done to Daniel?? (I've ranted about this at length just about everywhere, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice to say... Who the heck abducted Daniel and replaced him with this guy?)
k) Technological supremacy makes for massive fail in the suspense/caring department.
l) In creating the new enemy, give it some thought beyond 'false gods' and 'mighty weapons'.
m) Bounty? Family Ties? WTH?
n) Enough with the bad humor, please!





Certainly not. But I think, objectively, we can agree that the overall level of writing for those last two seasons was indeed sub par compared to previous seasons. And the ratings kind of prove this.

And I'm also one of the people who doesn't feel this way just because Jack left. I was honestly willing to give it a try. And had they done the transition to the new team, and the new plots, well I'd be all over it. However, sloppy writing and the disservice they had done to the characters (oh, the character assassination; oy ) turned me completely off. It was no longer the SG-1 I knew and loved. Again, not the original team SG-1. Just all the name stood for.

Oh, and my snark is in no way directed at you, I should point out. It's merely my coping mechanism. (How very... dramatic of me. Hah.)

Applause. Applause. Standing ovation here! More applause. Excellent!

[jckfan55]

OMG YES. A thousand times, yes.

a) Drop the juvenile humor. It's not working. It's bad. No, really. No. Really.
b) Drop the 'sexy' humor. It's insulting to intelligence of everyone with 5 plus functioning brain cells. Actually, the whole sexying-up of the show? Yeah, lose it.
c) Make the new Hero interesting. Do this by giving him a plausible reason for being there and a strong background. Interesting and complex character traits. If you absolutely have to make him the Leader of SG-1, back it up with solid arguments. Do not, however, brush it off and hope no one will notice. Also, do not make him a weak cross between a White Male Hero of 95% of TV shows and Jack's one-liners.
d) Jack one-liners/ O'Neill-isms are called that for a reason. They're Jack's. This also implies they aren't an inherent trait of either Mitchell, Daniel or Landry, scene-allowing. CUT IT OUT.
e) Sam is military and she's an astrophisicist. Things she is not: dumb, slow, inert, incompetent, wallpaper, giggly, confused, a babysitter, a cheap plot device. Use her often and use her wisely.
f) Teal'c is a complex character with many discernable traits and moral turmoils. He is not a He-Man with a rare brain damage that makes him capable of only uttering two phrases per episode, and shooting a staff at whatever the Hero points at as shootable.
g) Both Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge are phenomenal actors with such a great scope of performing, it blows one's mind. USE THEM WISELY.
h) Claudia Black is capable of doing more than showing off her (admitedly nice) figure. Seriously. The sex? Cut it out.
i) Have I mentioned the lame humor? Just. Stop.
j) What on Earth have you done to Daniel?? (I've ranted about this at length just about everywhere, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice to say... Who the heck abducted Daniel and replaced him with this guy?)
k) Technological supremacy makes for massive fail in the suspense/caring department.
l) In creating the new enemy, give it some thought beyond 'false gods' and 'mighty weapons'.
m) Bounty? Family Ties? WTH?
n) Enough with the bad humor, please!

Excellent. I agree with every one. I also applaud suse,jasminago, Ashizuri & mandy's responses to Duskofdead. and I can't green any of you.

I do give you credit, Duskofdead, for venturing here and you do make a few valid points. Though I disagree with your ultimate conclusions.

1) it's hard to please everyone. Very true.

2) TPTB could have been in a tough spot with losing RDA. Also true. I happen to disagree that it was that much of a blow as far as viewers are concerned. And I love Jack. (at least re: his screen presence. As others have pointed out his and Greenburg's behind the scenes work seems to have been quite important). He was easing out for a while and the other three had been carrying a lot of the show. capitalize on that while adding and integrating a new member of the team.

don't add 4 new characters--(Mitchell, Vala, Landry, Lam) I would actually say focus your energy--except I think they did--just not in a direction I liked.

[Skydiver]

how about instead of telling us in exquisite detail how wonderful the new guy is, just show us.

save the lines of dialogue and simply let his actions speak for him

[Ashizuri]

As a matter of fact, you have not. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I've been feeling a bit neglected lately.

...

*tackles*

*is tackled*

Very sorry for the neglect, it wont happen again!

Yes, this. I miss the ingenuity. I miss eager!Carter and excited!Daniel and their busy busy minds. The A-HA moments. Oh how I miss those.

The Sam and Daniel "together we can solve anything" friendship of the early seasons is something I seriously missed.

... TPTB's desperate desire to show Mitchell as the hero, the man, the leader even though he hadn't even seen the Stargate (and don't even get me started on the whole MoH thing)...

*Resists urge to throw something*

It's been a while, but were we ever actually told why Mitchell got the CMoH? Because all I remember of Avalon was him crashing an F302 and getting the dream job offer, no outstanding heroics or anything that set him apart, just following orders like the rest of the pilots.

GAH! If anyone deserved that award it was Jack or Hammond, both of whom willingly put their lives on the line for the rest of humanity without being told to.

/tangential rant.

[hedwig]

*is tackled*

Very sorry for the neglect, it wont happen again!



The Sam and Daniel "together we can solve anything" friendship of the early seasons is something I seriously missed.



*Resists urge to throw something*

It's been a while, but were we ever actually told why Mitchell got the CMoH? Because all I remember of Avalon was him crashing an F302 and getting the dream job offer, no outstanding heroics or anything that set him apart, just following orders like the rest of the pilots.

GAH! If anyone deserved that award it was Jack or Hammond, both of whom willingly put their lives on the line for the rest of humanity without being told to.

/tangential rant.

The bolded part was apparently why he got the MoH, and in doing so it evidently saved SG1, whilst all the other pilots in their F302's and the Prometheus were watching the whole thing, yawning in boredom, and checking their watches to see if it was time to go home yet. Oh, and apparently he did shoot down one alkesh.