S10: Critique & Contemplation

[VSS]

you ever hear of Wernher Von Braun? the so-called "father of the us space program" was a Nazi who used Jews as slave labor in his work for the Nazis. He and other rocket scientists from germany were brought to the us and even given citizenship because of what they knew....who cared about the Nazi ties, atleast they weren't commies! the US military has a history of ignoring who/what a person did in order to take advantage of what they knew. vala as a former host, then mother of the orici would ahve been considered another Von Braun by the us military.

Okay, I buy that, but the "old" team would have put up a fuss at someone so unscrupulous being put on their team. Maybourne was another officer who thought the end justified the means, but it was abundantly clear that SG-1 had no use for the likes of him.

[slurredspeech]

With Entity, I don't quite see how a computer virus could pick up or understand human emotions like that...

I can actually get behind this reasoning as well (even if I choose my little Path of Joy more often). We don't know how perceptive and intelligent this thing was and it is entirely possible it was the pure practicality you pointed out in the rest of your comment.
S4 being how it was (and, also, Path of Joy being... joyous) methinks the writers were implying certain things in that infirmary scene. Again! Just how I saw it. Doesn't mean squat, except in my own little world... of joy.

OOOH LOOKIE! I can now post freely! *does a little dance*

[slurredspeech]

vala as a former host, then mother of the orici would ahve been considered another Von Braun by the us military.

Perhaps. But would she be put on Earth's flagship team, as an equal unsupervised member? I beg to differ.

[Ashizuri]

you ever hear of Wernher Von Braun? the so-called "father of the us space program" was a Nazi who used Jews as slave labor in his work for the Nazis. He and other rocket scientists from germany were brought to the us and even given citizenship because of what they knew....who cared about the Nazi ties, atleast they weren't commies! the US military has a history of ignoring who/what a person did in order to take advantage of what they knew. vala as a former host, then mother of the orici would ahve been considered another Von Braun by the us military.

I get the argument that you're trying to make, but it just doesn't work for me.

What Vala brought to the table was inconsequential (particularly the host aspect), what Von Braun brought changed the face of the world. One could also argue Von Braun's ideological commitment to the NSDAP, though his involvement if irrefutable.

My point being that just because the US military has done it before doesn't make it right and though I would consider Vala to be far, far less terrible than Nazis I would also consider her to be far less useful than Von Braun.

[EvenstarSRV]

you ever hear of Wernher Von Braun? the so-called "father of the us space program" was a Nazi who used Jews as slave labor in his work for the Nazis. He and other rocket scientists from germany were brought to the us and even given citizenship because of what they knew....who cared about the Nazi ties, atleast they weren't commies! the US military has a history of ignoring who/what a person did in order to take advantage of what they knew. vala as a former host, then mother of the orici would ahve been considered another Von Braun by the us military.

I think I'd buy this argument more if those traits of Vala's had been significant in fighting the Ori, but from what I remember the 'mother of the orici' connection didn't pan out at all, and being a former Goa'uld host is probably not much help when fighting the Ori. They did make good use of her black market connections in Company of Thieves, but that seemed to be the only time.

I can actually get behind this reasoning as well (even if I choose my little Path of Joy more often). We don't know how perceptive and intelligent this thing was and it is entirely possible it was the pure practicality you pointed out in the rest of your comment.
S4 being how it was (and, also, Path of Joy being... joyous) methinks the writers were implying certain things in that infirmary scene. Again! Just how I saw it. Doesn't mean squat, except in my own little world... of joy.

This is where I'm sometimes really glad I saw most of SG-1 completely out of order and without knowing any of the behind the scenes stuff. I had my own little path of joy.

[hedwig]

With Entity, I don't quite see how a computer virus could pick up or understand human emotions like that, in the limited time it was in the SGC, unless Jack and Sam were doing something obvious to display their feelings.

From what I remember from the episode, it saw Sam talking with Hammond and Jack in the control room, read her file, saw that she was their technical expert and perhaps reasoned that she was the most likely person on base to stop it. Then it saw her use the keyboard and realized that was how it could jump into her.

Exactly my thoughts, and thank you for stating them. There are shippers who insist that the Entity jumped into Sam for the very reason that Jack cared so much about her, and figured he wouldn't do anything to harm her, but I've never been able to understand how they got that from what we saw (never understood how that entity could have picked up on anybody's feelings for anybody else, since it certainly wouldn't have been in the record system). I think what the entity meant was that Sam was very important to everyone because of her expertise and knowledge and therefore nobody would harm her ... not specifically that Jack wouldn't hurt her. But then, what do I know. (I guess this makes me a very bad shipper.)

[slurredspeech]

but I've never been able to understand how they got that from what we saw

Armstrong said it best when discussing the Jack/Mayborne ship:

One small step for some shippers, one GIANT LEAP for... everyone else.

(I guess this makes me a very bad shipper.)

Pshaw! No such thing.

[Allie_Kreek]

Tequila is not my friend. One margarita and I'm giggling stupidly and confusing cats for kangaroos (true story).

er... i hope you live in Oz otherwise I shake my head at you!

[Ashizuri]

er... i hope you live in Oz otherwise I shake my head at you!

If by Oz you mean northern California, then yes! I live in Oz.

[slurredspeech]

If by Oz you mean northern California, then yes! I live in Oz.

This is preferable. Ozzies should know their kangaroo anatomies. N Californians, however,... should not be thinking there are kangaroos hopping around. You sure that was a margarita?

[Ashizuri]

This is preferable. Ozzies should know their kangaroo anatomies. N Californians, however,... should not be thinking there are kangaroos hopping around. You sure that was a margarita?

It was one of those moments where my brain was yelling "don't say that you fool!" but my mouth was already engaged. Happens quite a bit actually, as I say some rediculous things.

[suse]

you ever hear of Wernher Von Braun? the so-called "father of the us space program" was a Nazi who used Jews as slave labor in his work for the Nazis. He and other rocket scientists from germany were brought to the us and even given citizenship because of what they knew....who cared about the Nazi ties, atleast they weren't commies! the US military has a history of ignoring who/what a person did in order to take advantage of what they knew. vala as a former host, then mother of the orici would ahve been considered another Von Braun by the us military.

Yeah, the US has had dirty hands in a lot of things. One would hope we've learned.

I still say allowing a known thief/kidnapper/con artist access to vital world security secrets is not what would be done

Okay, I buy that, but the "old" team would have put up a fuss at someone so unscrupulous being put on their team. Maybourne was another officer who thought the end justified the means, but it was abundantly clear that SG-1 had no use for the likes of him.

Exactly.


suse

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah they used Von Braun's knowledge. They didn't give him a gun and them to watch their six.

[Rac80]

Yeah they used Von Braun's knowledge. They didn't give him a gun and them to watch their six.

nope they simply gave him access to top secret us knowledge and oh yes, citizenship. A little more sensitive positions I would think.
I have seen that there are times within the military/us/any government that "the ends justify the means". and we haven't even discussed what happened to the japanese war criminals! (as in nothing.... didn't want the chinese commies getting them!)

[Ashizuri]

nope they simply gave him access to top secret us knowledge and oh yes, citizenship. A little more sensitive positions I would think.
I have seen that there are times within the military/us/any government that "the ends justify the means". and we haven't even discussed what happened to the japanese war criminals! (as in nothing.... didn't want the chinese commies getting them!)

I think what most of us are getting at is that Vala was a big risk with negligible gains, whereas Von Braun was a huge risk and we got far more than we could have ever imagined. The end didn't justify the means where she was concerned because many of us felt that in the grand scheme of things she contributed almost nothing of value to the program.

It's like comparing apples to oranges.

As for Japanese war criminals, weren't many of them prosecuted/hung? I have a very limited scope of knowledge regarding WWII, but wasn't there a big kerfluffle a few years ago about the USA trying to justify using water-boarding at Gitmo when we had tried and convicted many Japanese for doing it during WWII? Though, it is true that a few Japanese war criminals were absorbed into the biochemical warfare type reasearch in America and they were likely viewed in the same way as Von Braun, but again, I'm sure what they contributed was of far greater value than anything we got out of Vala. (Seriously, putting "biochemical warfare" and "greater value" in the same sentence kind of hurts. )

Forgive my lack of knowledge...it's been a while since I took a history course...which is in no way a valid excuse for not knowing my own history...

EDIT: Hung? Shot? I have no idea how criminal execution was handled then...