S10: Critique & Contemplation

[RealmOfX]

I thought relationships between enlisted personnel and officers were verboten as well.

Where's JenniferJF when you need her?

Personal relationships - generally yes, there are exceptions. I get what Nightspore is talking about but that example shouldn't have been an enlisted person, substitute an Officer and it would be correct.

I agree with most of what Nightspore is saying, though I'd nitpick on a few items, but the basic intent I do agree on. The regs in this case aren't hard and fast they are policy and guidlines designed to keep good order and discipline and not adversely affect morale. There is a lot of wriggle room in them so long as it doesn't adversely affect the Air Force however once a relationship has been deemed inappropriate and people have been ordered to cease the relationship then it is clear cut, disobey the order and your a### is grass!

[RealmOfX]

Wow, great discussion guys.

On a bit of a tangent, I've wondered if the regs that are cited against Sam/Jack would also apply to the civilians on the team, like Daniel, Teal'c, Jonas and Vala. I've always thought that, as employees of the Air Force, they had to follow the same rules as military officers, only they couldn't be court martialed if they broke them. But then I've never read the regs, so I could be completely off-base.

They do apply, Civilian Employees and Government Contractor Personnel are specifically mentioned in the Air Force instructions for Professional and Uprofessional Relationships, though these are aimed at the military personnel. The work contracts for the civilians would hold similar themed parts in their work agreements.

[Ashizuri]

And as some of you have previously noted Jack never actually endorsed Mitchell.

I think I'll take 200 to be my guide as to how Jack feels about Mitchell.

MITCHELL: Yup, it's good to be here.

O'NEILL: (offended) You weren't there!

Obviously, Jack is a big fan of the awesomeness that is Mitchell.

I thought relationships between enlisted personnel and officers were verboten as well.

For the most part it is, but there are always going to be exceptions to the rules. I spoilered the actual text cause it's long.

According to Air Force Instruction 36-2909, Professional and Unprofessional Relationships:

Spoiler:

Fraternization, as defined by the Manual for Courts-martial, is a personal relationship between an officer and an enlisted member that violates the customary bounds of acceptable behavior in the Air Force and prejudices good order and discipline, discredits the armed services, or operates to the personal disgrace or dishonor of the officer involved. The custom recognizes that officers will not form personal relationships with enlisted members on terms of military equality, whether on or off-duty. Although the custom originated in an all male military, it is gender neutral.

The rules regarding personal relationships must be somewhat elastic to accommodate differing conditions and operational necessities; however, the underlying standard is that Air Force members are expected to avoid those relationships...

@ Evenstar: on civilian employees.

Spoiler:

Relationships with Civilian Employees and Government Contractor Personnel. Civilian employees and contractor personnel are an integral part of the Air Force. They contribute directly to readiness and mission accomplishment. Consequently, military members of all grades must maintain professional relationships with civilian employees and government contractor personnel, particularly those whom they supervise or direct, and must avoid relationships that adversely affect or reasonably can adversely affect morale, discipline and respect for authority or that violate law or regulation.

EDIT: what RealmOfX said.

[Nightspore]

I thought relationships between enlisted personnel and officers were verboten as well.

Where's JenniferJF when you need her?

For me, talking about the military regs which apply to the real U.S military member/enlisted personnel/officers, etc. is one discussion – and an area where I'm certainly not an expert. JenniferJF may popup and cite certain regs which will straight out say that ALL relationships between enlisted personnel and officers in any kind of situation are forbidden, and give her interpretation to specific situations. I was told that in the real world military in a situation roughly comparable to that of Sam and Jack, they would now be free to have a relationship since she is no longer in his direct chain of command. I have no doubt that 10 people with military experience might give 10 different interpretations of specific regulations.

As I said before, what is allowed in the real world military does not (for me) transfer to what should be allowed in a fictional TV show; it is not a valid comparison in my opinion because the very existence of SG-1 goes against any real world military reality, and so many other things that occurred on the show would never be allowed in the real military. But yes, the S/J issue seems to really bother some people who don't otherwise care about all the other behaviors we witnessed which were against military regulations.


Season 10: I watched it once the first time, but don't bother to watch any re-runs and would never purchase the DVD for any amount of money. I loved Ben and Claudia on Farscape - loved the acting, writing and the characters. For me, Vala and Mitchell were poorly written and didn't fit into the SG-1 that I'd come to know and love. And Vala managed to make me like Daniel less, whereas I loved him before she showed up. Not my cup of tea...

[EvenstarSRV]

They do apply, Civilian Employees and Government Contractor Personnel are specifically mentioned in the Air Force instructions for Professional and Uprofessional Relationships, though these are aimed at the military personnel. The work contracts for the civilians would hold similar themed parts in their work agreements.

@ Evenstar: on civilian employees.

Spoiler:

Relationships with Civilian Employees and Government Contractor Personnel. Civilian employees and contractor personnel are an integral part of the Air Force. They contribute directly to readiness and mission accomplishment. Consequently, military members of all grades must maintain professional relationships with civilian employees and government contractor personnel, particularly those whom they supervise or direct, and must avoid relationships that adversely affect or reasonably can adversely affect morale, discipline and respect for authority or that violate law or regulation.

EDIT: what RealmOfX said.

Thanks guys! That's along the lines what I thought, but since entering fandom, I've seen the 'but they're civilian' argument used so many times that I started wondering.

Especially when it seemed liked it was supported in canon with Mitchell saying in Uninvited, I think, that he didn't really command Daniel or Teal'c because they were civilians. That line just confused me, because I didn't think it was ever a question that Jack could command Daniel and Teal'c (and Jonas) when he was SG-1 CO.

Season 10: I watched it once the first time, but don't bother to watch any re-runs and would never purchase the DVD for any amount of money. I loved Ben and Claudia on Farscape - loved the acting, writing and the characters. For me, Vala and Mitchell were poorly written and didn't fit into the SG-1 that I'd come to know and love. And Vala managed to make me like Daniel less, whereas I loved him before she showed up. Not my cup of tea...

One thing that saddens me about seasons 9-10 is how I felt the Daniel character changed from what I'd seen in the previous seasons. Daniel had quickly become one of my favorite characters when I started watching, and what I probably liked best about him was his sincerity, empathy, and ability to forgive. I felt like we saw little of that in S9-10, and it did feel like quite of bit of that was in reaction to Vala. It wasn't my cup of tea either.

[KatG]

I think that had Sam not been involved with the Stargate program (and SG1) she would have been highly annoyed with her father for getting her to the front of the astronaut line (without at least talking to her first - shows how little the two communicated with each other that Jacob didn't realize this or else figured she'd overlook it since it was what she supposedly wanted), even though she probably would still have been interested in that program. She wanted to make it on her own, without anyone else's intervention, and I think she would have been highly annoyed with Jacob. The only reason she wasn't interested in the astronaut program (as we all know) was because she had a much better job by then, ... and it had to be terribly frustrating to not be able to tell him at that point.

I don't think she would like Jacob interfering either. She went out of her way to keep anyone in the Stargate program from knowing that her father was a general in the AF, so much so that Jack didn't have a clue when he first met him.

The issue of Jacob, getting her a spot at NASA, wasn't made a big deal, because Sam had no intention of taking it in the first place. I'd have to go back and watch it, but she did say something to the effect "you did this without asking me?", so she wasn't pleased.

[suse]

That's Sam. Just because she didn't want to get somewhere *not on her own merits*, doesn't mean she wasn't ambitious and not leadership material.

suse

[Skydiver]

chain of command doesn't really matter as long as there's a buffer between them.

it's DIRECT chain of command, jack being her direct CO.

For the shippers, once he moved to homeland security, he and sam could have a relationship, as long as Landry knew and, if Landry had any issues with Sam, those issues were dealt with anyone but Jack.

FOr example, when it came to Atlantis, the prez and others would have to know that Sam was his girlfriend/wife, so they could know that when he made any decisions about her, or jack should recuse himself from those issues.

now, one loophole, if i'm right, is, duriing season 9 and 10 jack and sam got together, even got married, that'd be fine by the regs. and as long as full disclosure of their marriage was made after she got atlantis and he was more her boss again, then it's fine.

a pre-existing marriage isn't breaking the frat regs. the co just needs to know and sign off on it.

[Skydiver]

Wow, great discussion guys.

On a bit of a tangent, I've wondered if the regs that are cited against Sam/Jack would also apply to the civilians on the team, like Daniel, Teal'c, Jonas and Vala. I've always thought that, as employees of the Air Force, they had to follow the same rules as military officers, only they couldn't be court martialed if they broke them. But then I've never read the regs, so I could be completely off-base.

they very much apply. as others have said.

jack giving sam a ride to work on a daily basis is just as inappropriate as if he gave daniel a ride to work every day.

It always cracked me up when i'd see slash fans using the regs to say why sam and jack is bad and evil but say that daniel is exempt from the regs, no, he's not. He's just as subject to them as she is.

the only difference is, jack and sam could both be courtmartialed but if it was jack and daniel, jack would be courtmartialed and daniel would just be fired and lose his security clearance

[Allie_Kreek]

One thing that saddens me about seasons 9-10 is how I felt the Daniel character changed from what I'd seen in the previous seasons. Daniel had quickly become one of my favorite characters when I started watching, and what I probably liked best about him was his sincerity, empathy, and ability to forgive. I felt like we saw little of that in S9-10, and it did feel like quite of bit of that was in reaction to Vala. It wasn't my cup of tea either.

I really didn't like S10 Daniel. He was so up himself and they tried to make him a little more O'Neill-like and it just came across as annoying and mean. Sometimes the interaction between Daniel and Vala was good but most of the time it was just mind-numbing and puke-worthy. I think Vala could have been a very good character (as I said before) but turning her into a space bimbo was insulting. In fact the interactions between all the characters started to get silly - the Mitchell hero worship (*shakes head*), the idea that Sam and Vala have girlie shopping days, Daniel's snarky comments to people... it was annoying.

On a happier note Sam punching Ba'al was fun.

[scifithinker]

they very much apply. as others have said.

jack giving sam a ride to work on a daily basis is just as inappropriate as if he gave daniel a ride to work every day.

It always cracked me up when i'd see slash fans using the regs to say why sam and jack is bad and evil but say that daniel is exempt from the regs, no, he's not. He's just as subject to them as she is.

the only difference is, jack and sam could both be courtmartialed but if it was jack and daniel, jack would be courtmartialed and daniel would just be fired and lose his security clearance

Carpooling breaks the regs?!?!

[suse]

Carpooling breaks the regs?!?!

If it's *just* them? I can see it. Relationships (and I don't means "ships") develop during that time. It just doesn't look good. Now if several of them did it? Safety in numbers...

Is it a written rule? I doubt it, but it would come down to spending non-work time together.

Someone call JenniferJF.

suse

[slurredspeech]

Is it a written rule? I doubt it, but it would come down to spending non-work time together.

And yet, soldiers do, all the time. They grab drinks together, hang out after hours and, especially if they're in a regiment, form very close bonds and friendships. It's definitely a guideline and, methinks, depends a lot on the particularities of that working environment (most of all, people).

[EvenstarSRV]

I really didn't like S10 Daniel. He was so up himself and they tried to make him a little more O'Neill-like and it just came across as annoying and mean. Sometimes the interaction between Daniel and Vala was good but most of the time it was just mind-numbing and puke-worthy. I think Vala could have been a very good character (as I said before) but turning her into a space bimbo was insulting. In fact the interactions between all the characters started to get silly - the Mitchell hero worship (*shakes head*), the idea that Sam and Vala have girlie shopping days, Daniel's snarky comments to people... it was annoying.

I think Daniel's always had a sarcastic side, like the 'which end to the bullets go in again?' stuff, but I never felt it was dominant part of his personality like it kinda became in the later seasons. I can understand becoming more cynical after all the hardships, but what I'd liked about Daniel was his resistance to that tendency.

What annoyed me more were things like him not forgiving Woolsey in Prototype, his attitude in the Shroud and Bad Guys, and his treatment towards Vala in Company of Thieves, Family Ties, and especially Unending.

On a happier note Sam punching Ba'al was fun.

Heh, that was quite fun, as were their expressions after Teal'c's comment that they worked well together.

And yet, soldiers do, all the time. They grab drinks together, hang out after hours and, especially if they're in a regiment, form very close bonds. It's definitely of a guideline and, methinks, depends a lot on the particularities of that working environment (most of all, people).

It's likely a group vs. individuals thing, where hanging out as a group fosters team bonding and such, but a pair of teammates constantly hanging out together could become an issue.

[slurredspeech]

It's likely a group vs. individuals thing, where hanging out as a group fosters team bonding and such, but a pair of teammates constantly hanging out together could become an issue.

I agree, at least in principle of what you're trying to say. But then again, it depends on the particular situation. Is it two girls? Best buddies? Even if it's a male-female dynamic, there's still no rule saying they can't go for drinks after work. Whether that will stir up rumors or not is another issue altogether and would be dealt with by the superior officer should they get out of hand. That's what I meant by the quality of the working environment. But frat regs don't forbid friendships.