S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Mandysg1]

Don't worry, I don't think you're being rude at all. Discussion is why we're here right?

Anyway, can you see my point that it could be seen as a bit dodgy?

Jack does have pull at the SGC; Doctor Lam for example specifically mentions Jack as the person that offered the SGC job. Although I admit the later we get the fuzzier things get with the IOA's authority.

I think this little phrase, describes very well season 9 and 10's military command, and how the characters got their postions

[Ashizuri]

I can see your point Crazedwraith and if Jack does have a lot of direct power over the day to day at the SGC it could be a problem.

I blame all this confusion on TPTB not having given us a clear picture of how the SGC, HWS, the IOA, NID and Area 51 are all interconnected or what the power structure within these organizations is.

[VSS]

Don't worry, I don't think you're being rude at all. Discussion is why we're here right?

Anyway, can you see my point that it could be seen as a bit dodgy?

Jack does have pull at the SGC; Doctor Lam for example specifically mentions Jack as the person that offered the SGC job. Although I admit the later we get the fuzzier things get with the IOA's authority.

He wanted Cam to lead SG-1 and no one thought that was the least bit dodgy, though he had personal reasons for doing that, too. If you want to preclude personal ties, then no one on SG-1 should ever be in Jack's chain of command again.

That's because having pull isn't really the issue- that happens no matter what and he could just as easily pull strings for Daniel- although one could argue that Jack's close ties with him actually hurt Daniel's career because Jack wouldn't let him go to Atlantis. These kinds of things happen all the time- the best that can be done is to avoid the worst kinds. Which they did.

The issue is, to use the lingo- "preservation of morale, good order and discipline." If there's no obvious abuse of power there's not a problem at this point in the series.

Edit: It's one thing to have pull- it's another thing entirely to actually use it.

[Ashizuri]

If you want to preclude personal ties, then no one on SG-1 should ever be in Jack's chain of command again.

This is actually a very good point. The entire team was technically too close.

If we're precluding personal ties, it also should have prevented Sam from serving under Mitchell because she was his good friend.

Then again, as other people have stated, we don't really know what it is Jack does exactly. He could be planning world domination, for all we've been told in the last couple of seasons.

[slurredspeech]

He wanted Cam to lead SG-1 and no one thought that was the least bit dodgy, though he had personal reasons for doing that, too.

Ah, but he knew Mitchell the Hero wanted to be on SG-1; what was the guy to do? Deny Cameron Mitchell something? Just because he wasn't competent enough? THE HORROR.
See, in some ways, SG-1 kept up the continuity set up beginning of S9. /snark

But, yeah, word to your post. Favorism is, unfortunately, a matter of every-day life, civilian or otherwise, and happening on all levels for myriad of reasons. Heck, bosses/CO's will promote one person over another with same skills because that person is just more likeable. It's how life works, simple as that.

[VSS]

This is actually a very good point. The entire team was technically too close.

People who know these things say there's no way that SG-1 would have been left intact for as long as it was in RL because they would all have been far too close.

Ah, but he knew Mitchell the Hero wanted to be on SG-1; what was the guy to do? Deny Cameron Mitchell something? Just because he wasn't competent enough? THE HORROR.
See, in some ways, SG-1 kept up the continuity set up beginning of S9. /snark.

But wasn't that just another way to inform the audience that we should all love Mitchell because Jack told him he could have any assignment he wanted? It's kind of interesting that a lot of these characters showed up with Jack's seal of approval, when in earlier seasons they just showed up.

But, yeah, word to your post. Favorism is, unfortunately, a matter of every-day life, civilian or otherwise, and happening on all levels for myriad of reasons. Heck, bosses/CO's will promote one person over another with same skills because that person is just more likeable. It's how life works, simple as that.

Yes it is- remember Jacob getting Sam to the front of the line to be an astronaut? Sam didn't bat an eye at that- she just didn't want to be an astronaut. But later, AT specifically asked them to cut a line from Reunion where the script read that Jack had put in a good word for Sam to be the commander of Atlantis. Because if you do have ties to someone who has pull, you go out of your way to avoid any appearance of favoritism. You want to do it on your own!

[slurredspeech]

But wasn't that just another way to inform the audience that we should all love Mitchell because Jack told him he could have any assignment he wanted? It's kind of interesting that a lot of these characters showed up with Jack's seal of approval, when in earlier seasons they just showed up.

ANOTHER PROOF OF JACK'S PLANS OF WORLD DOMINATION!11! Wait 'till he starts calling in all those favors. IT'S ALL BEEN LEADING UP TO THIS AND WE JUST CRACKED THE PLOT OF THE NEW MOVIE.

Amirite?

Jokes aside, ayup, it's all a part of tell don't show that was the last two seasons.

'Why am I appointing this rookie to be the leader of SG-1?'
'Jack said so.'
'But, in S8 he didn't want to appoint that Russian Guy because he had no Gate exp--'
'DO NOT QUESTION THE JACK.'
'I repent. I shall now cut off my arm in punishment for thinking logically.'

[hedwig]

(**snipped**)
Yes it is- remember Jacob getting Sam to the front of the line to be an astronaut? Sam didn't bat an eye at that- she just didn't want to be an astronaut. But later, AT specifically asked them to cut a line from Reunion where the script read that Jack had put in a good word for Sam to be the commander of Atlantis. Because if you do have ties to someone who has pull, you go out of your way to avoid any appearance of favoritism. You want to do it on your own!

I think that had Sam not been involved with the Stargate program (and SG1) she would have been highly annoyed with her father for getting her to the front of the astronaut line (without at least talking to her first - shows how little the two communicated with each other that Jacob didn't realize this or else figured she'd overlook it since it was what she supposedly wanted), even though she probably would still have been interested in that program. She wanted to make it on her own, without anyone else's intervention, and I think she would have been highly annoyed with Jacob. The only reason she wasn't interested in the astronaut program (as we all know) was because she had a much better job by then, ... and it had to be terribly frustrating to not be able to tell him at that point.

[suse]

But wasn't that just another way to inform the audience that we should all love Mitchell because Jack told him he could have any assignment he wanted? It's kind of interesting that a lot of these characters showed up with Jack's seal of approval, when in earlier seasons they just showed up.

Yep, it's the "Woo-hoo!! O'Neill loves the guy and the rest of the team is soooo grateful to him - he's such a hero for saving their behinds along with at least 20 other pilots, but they aren't important that they'd be willing to follow him thru fog and fire to just have the chance to work under him! Our HEEEEERRRRROOOOOOOO!"

It's enough to gag a maggot.

suse

[hedwig]

Yep, it's the "Woo-hoo!! O'Neill loves the guy and the rest of the team is soooo grateful to him - he's such a hero for saving their behinds along with at least 20 other pilots, but they aren't important that they'd be willing to follow him thru fog and fire to just have the chance to work under him! Our HEEEEERRRRROOOOOOOO!"

It's enough to gag a maggot.

suse

[RealmOfX]

Yep, it's the "Woo-hoo!! O'Neill loves the guy and the rest of the team is soooo grateful to him - he's such a hero for saving their behinds along with at least 20 other pilots, but they aren't important that they'd be willing to follow him thru fog and fire to just have the chance to work under him! Our HEEEEERRRRROOOOOOOO!"

It's enough to gag a maggot.

suse

<snerk> poor maggots

*uses suse's post as an entre to my Mitchell comments on lack of...

well EVERYTHING!*



Actually when Jack said Mitchell could have any job he wanted he said "within reason"

Leading SG-1 wasn't reasonable Even being on a team wasn't reasonable for Mitchell coming off extended medical leave (remember how bad he was supposedly hurt) and having no training. It so went against established canon to let a noob like that in, let alone lead

And as some of you have previously noted Jack never actually endorsed Mitchell. TPTB tried to give that impression but Jack never said a word to Mitchell saying that he (Jack) endorsed Mitchell in that position or encouraged him. That scene in the cockpit, the supposed pasing the baton schickt, he said Landry thought etc not I thought. I thought that was a bit strange but then during S9&10 TPTB excelled at telling us one thing but showing us another

[Mandysg1]

I think the one thing they kept in continuity for Cam was him being a hot shot pilot. Too bad that kind of thing doesn't work on a covert military ground team

[Nightspore]

I'm sorry, Nightspore. I'm working off a very general idea of military regs but you seem to be suggesting that Jack & Sam can't date when they're together on a team because of the direct chain of command but when Jack is in fact in charge of the entire program that Sam is in and is a position to make appointments and so forth it would be ok?

If they were in a relationship with Sam at SGC and Jack at HWS then Jack could lean on Landry to get Sam better assignments, more responsibilities etc. If Landry left, Jack would be in a position to appoint her head of the SGC over the top of more senior personnel if he liked.

So if that is not against the letter of the regs, it still would certainly seem to be against the spirit of the regs. As Sam could use the relationship to gain favourable treatment.

Not at all. For example, The Chief of Staff of the Air Force is the senior uniformed officer in United States Air Force and is a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. (It used to be General Jumper, who appeared on the show back in the day). He heads the Air Staff and He is responsible for the organization, training, and equipping of more than 700,000 active-duty, National Guard, Reserve, and civilian forces serving in the United States and overseas. So, pretend the Chief of Staff is not married and meets an enlisted woman who works for a person who is under his command. By your logic, it would be against the spirit of the regs for them to date and she could use her relationship to gain favorable treatment. But that's NOT how it works in the real world. These 2 people are free to have a relationship. It IS about direct chain of command as in people serving on units/teams together.

I think it is also important to remember that in almost EVERY single instance on the show, TPTB have taken creative license to make things more interesting/dramatic/fun, etc....this show does not, and never has, followed the letter of law of "regulations" of the real world military. TV entertainment shows always use dramatic license and in this case the military regs were more a guideline than a strict reality. They did decide not to let S/J actually have a relationship, but beyond that they followed strict military regs very seldom.

I've never been able to understand the logic behind people saying "it wouldn't happen that way in the military/that isn't allowed/that is a disgrace," etc. Of course it wouldn't happen this way. It's a TV show, not a documentary and I don't believe things can be compared. Anyway, in the real world HWS is NOT in charge of any kind of military installations or operations, so the comparison should not even be made, IMO.

As someone said, the very idea that SG-1 would be together for 5 years (before Daniel leaving in year 6) is something that would NEVER EVER happen in the real world military. If you (generic) accept that premise, why anyone would have an issue with other situations where "real world" military regulations aren't applied, is a mystery to me.

If someone doesn't like S/J because they think it's a cliché for the leading man to be coupled with the leading female, fine. If they don't like the pairing because they feel it makes Sam Carter seem like a weak character or if they don't like how she behaves because of her feelings for Jack, that's fine. If they'd rather see the J/D friendship as opposed to any kind of S/J ship, fine. I have no issues with someone not liking S/J...EXCEPT when it comes to the "They cannot be together, it's against the regs" meme. I see it as intellectually dishonest and inconsistently applied logic.

[scifithinker]

Not at all. For example, The Chief of Staff of the Air Force is the senior uniformed officer in United States Air Force and is a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. (It used to be General Jumper, who appeared on the show back in the day). He heads the Air Staff and He is responsible for the organization, training, and equipping of more than 700,000 active-duty, National Guard, Reserve, and civilian forces serving in the United States and overseas. So, pretend the Chief of Staff is not married and meets an enlisted woman who works for a person who is under his command. By your logic, it would be against the spirit of the regs for them to date and she could use her relationship to gain favorable treatment. But that's NOT how it works in the real world. These 2 people are free to have a relationship. It IS about direct chain of command as in people serving on units/teams together.

I thought relationships between enlisted personnel and officers were verboten as well.

Where's JenniferJF when you need her?

[EvenstarSRV]

Wow, great discussion guys.

On a bit of a tangent, I've wondered if the regs that are cited against Sam/Jack would also apply to the civilians on the team, like Daniel, Teal'c, Jonas and Vala. I've always thought that, as employees of the Air Force, they had to follow the same rules as military officers, only they couldn't be court martialed if they broke them. But then I've never read the regs, so I could be completely off-base.