S10: Critique & Contemplation

[scifithinker]

I didn't mind the character; I did mind the outfit. Now, with Vala, I minded both the outfit and the character.

[jckfan55]

^ Except for that one uncomfortable scene w/ Jack in Divide and Conquer, Anise was not in her character behaving like "sexy alien of the week."

IMHO, Vala, rather than being a complex character simply suffered from a writer imposed multiple personality disorder. She veered from clever to sex obsessed to serious to idiot from episode to episode and even within episodes.
Though RCC had final approval of the scripts & has been said to rewrite chunks, do you think some of that was b/c of different writers' ideas of who she was/could be?

Has anyone ever gone through and seen who wrote which Vala in which episodes?
too lazy to do it myself.

[scifithinker]

Vala was so over the top in season 9 that there was no logical way to integrate into the team. As a result, they really needed to shoehorn her in. It made the character untenable. The question then became how much of the character had to be rewritten in order to make her fit in. She's full of contradictions because she fundamentally never fit in.

As soon as I found out that they planned on bringing Vala in full-time for season 10, I knew the show would be canceled. Mitchell had all sorts of continuity problems. Compound that with those of Vala, and it was a death sentence. There were just too many people who would no longer accept the changes.

And jckfan, I'm not going to try to figure that one out.

[hedwig]

^ Except for that one uncomfortable scene w/ Jack in Divide and Conquer, Anise was not in her character behaving like "sexy alien of the week."

IMHO, Vala, rather than being a complex character simply suffered from a writer imposed multiple personality disorder. She veered from clever to sex obsessed to serious to idiot from episode to episode and even within episodes.
Though RCC had final approval of the scripts & has been said to rewrite chunks, do you think some of that was b/c of different writers' ideas of who she was/could be?

Has anyone ever gone through and seen who wrote which Vala in which episodes?
too lazy to do it myself.

My curiosity got the better of me:

Prometheus Unbound by Damian Kindler w/Rob Cooper editing
Avalon, p1 - Brad Wright & Robert Cooper
Avalon, p2 -Robert Cooper
Origin -Rob Cooper
Ties That Bind -Joseph Mallozzi & Paul Mullie
Powers That Be -Martin Gero
Beachhead -Brad Wright
***
Crusade -Rob Cooper
Camelot -Joseph Mallozzi & Paul Mullie

Flesh and Blood -Robert Cooper
Morpheus -Joseph Mallozzi & Paul Mullie
Pegasus Project -Brad Wright
Insiders -Allan McCullough
Uninvited -Damian Kindler
200 -Wright/Cooper/Mallozzi/Mullie/Binder/Gero/McCullough
Counterstrike -Mallozzi & Mullie
Memento Mori -Mallozzi & Mullie
Co. of Thieves -McCullough
The Quest, 1 -Mallozzi & Mullie
The Quest, 2 -Mallozzi & Mullie
Line in the Sand -McCullough
Road Not Taken -McCullough
The Shroud -Cooper & Wright
Bounty -Rob Cooper & Ron Wilkerson
Bad Guys -Ben Browder & Martin Gero
Talion -Damian Kindler
Family Ties -Mallozzi & Mullie
Dominion -Alex Levine & Allan McCullough
Unending -Robert Cooper

I sense a pattern there.

[slurredspeech]

Just popping my head in to let you guys know that reading you has been keeping me sane through the cluster**** that was watching Seasons 9 and 10, and more importantly, amused where the show so desperately tried and miserably failed.

I'm not really hands-on in this particular fandom (fandoms if you count SGA as being a separate one), mainly for lack of time and initial run-in's with some extremes on both sides of the spectrum. Since I usually lay somewhere in between the 'SQUEE IT'S ALL SO PERFECT OMG! PINK! RAINBOW! FLOWER!' and the 'ZOMG I HATE HIM/HER/IT, SOOO STOOOPID, I WONT EXPLAIN WHY THEYRE FAT!ELEVEN!', it's nice to read honest debates on some of the big issues.

And snicker! I can't leave out the Importance of the Snicker.

So yeah. Thought it only fair to join and show my appreciation for this thread.

Cheers!

[Ashizuri]

@ Hedwig:

Interestingly enough, the two episodes I actually really liked Vala in (Line in the Sand and the Road Not Taken) were both written by the same person and the ones I was able to mostly tolerate her were written by BW.

Just popping my head in to let you guys know that reading you has been keeping me sane through the cluster**** that was watching Seasons 9 and 10, and more importantly, amused where the show so desperately tried and miserably failed.

I'm not really hands-on in this particular fandom (fandoms if you count SGA as being a separate one), mainly for lack of time and initial run-in's with some extremes on both sides of the spectrum. Since I usually lay somewhere in between the 'SQUEE IT'S ALL SO PERFECT OMG! PINK! RAINBOW! FLOWER!' and the 'ZOMG I HATE HIM/HER/IT, SOOO STOOOPID, I WONT EXPLAIN WHY THEYRE FAT!ELEVEN!', it's nice to read honest debates on some of the big issues.

And snicker! I can't leave out the Importance of the Snicker.

So yeah. Thought it only fair to join and show my appreciation for this thread.

Cheers!

Welcome to the thread!

[Ashizuri]

Vala was so over the top in season 9 that there was no logical way to integrate into the team. As a result, they really needed to shoehorn her in. It made the character untenable. The question then became how much of the character had to be rewritten in order to make her fit in. She's full of contradictions because she fundamentally never fit in.

As soon as I found out that they planned on bringing Vala in full-time for season 10, I knew the show would be canceled. Mitchell had all sorts of continuity problems. Compound that with those of Vala, and it was a death sentence. There were just too many people who would no longer accept the changes.

And jckfan, I'm not going to try to figure that one out.

Virtual GREEN since I can't give you the real thing. I was nodding my head in agreement the entire time I was reading this post.

[Rogue]

*comes in and dusts off thread* "Achoooo", oops excuse me

I noticed on GW's home page, Darren listed his top five character intros, well I thought I'd give a bit of a different list

Top 5 Worst characters (according to me )

5. Anise, she was a character that came in to fill the 7 of 9, alien in skin tight out fit spot, that was forced upon TPTB by Skiffy Showtime.

4. Vala Mal Doran, she was a character that came in wearing a dominatrix outfit (s9), that was forced(?) upon TPTB by Skiffy. (I sense a theme here )
*although I'm quite sure Cooper wanted her on the show full time too*

3. Dr. Lam, were there any good things about this character? I beleive even Lexa mentioned that Lam was such a cold character, she didn't like her
(Correct me if I am wrong)

2. General Landry, he was supposed to be a seasoned general, but he kept making terrible decisions. Making an inexperienced rookie leader of SG1 is just one of those

1. Cam Mitchell, Cam 'Shaft' Mitchell, yep he gave us the shaft all right, with his inexperienced enthusiam put into a leader of the number 1 team This is the leader who doesn't know not to push the button, doesn't listen to his experienced team and runs straight into trouble (taking his team with him)...because you know, it's what SG1 does

Yep, except I would replace Anise with Pete. Yeah her nickname was Boobaleous but at least her character belonged in the stargate universe.

[slurredspeech]

Ah! Thank you to people for those pointy-points-thingies and a welcome. I have no idea how to respond to them or the people on my user page so I'm doing it here. That being OT which would make me a less than upstanding newbie (and perhaps a bit dense), I'll just have to add my two cents to the latest conversation development.

My least favorite character? S9/10 version of Jackson. Mitchell may have been brought in in the worst way imaginable and went downhill from there (which I thought impossible after his introduction but I guess that's what 'Powers' in TPTB stands for) and Vala may have been an atrocious caricature of a woman but they were both brought in that way and changed little over the course of two years. Somehow, seeing a once well-rounded loveable character reduced to a shadow of -- not even his former self, no, that's wrong. Making him a sum of all the obnoxious traits, a one-dimensional smart-a** with superiority complex. Don't get me wrong, I have a very soft spot for smart-a**'s, when they can pull it off; he couldn't nor did it make sense Daniel Jackson should.

It seemed to me he has become a very flat punchline to a horrible Vaniel joke and the fact that this was the original character I once liked made it all the more painful to watch.

*tune in tomorrow for a Very Special Soap Box Edition of slurredspeech on Carter: Where Has All the Competence Gone?*

(Though I can't quite bring myself to dislike her all that much because... gah! Carter! *pained*)

[Crazedwraith]

You know I was going to post a question to the people posting about Pete: Do you hate Pete as a character or just the "Carter's love life" sub-plot ? Because I can't remember Pete being all that objectionable.

Then I actually remember Pete's first episode. *Shudders* And how he pretty much ended up stalking her until he got his ass lasered off by Osiris. But I'm reasonably sure he got better in later episodes.

So this brought me around to the thought, no matter how much we trash talk about S9/10 there were just as many complaints about season 7 ruining SG-1 and the franchise and generally being a very weak season. And probably similar things were said about season 6 if only because of the whole Jackson/Quinn wars.

[Mandysg1]

You know I was going to post a question to the people posting about Pete: Do you hate Pete as a character or just the "Carter's love life" sub-plot ? Because I can't remember Pete being all that objectionable.

Then I actually remember Pete's first episode. *Shudders* And how he pretty much ended up stalking her until he got his ass lasered off by Osiris. But I'm reasonably sure he got better in later episodes.

So this brought me around to the thought, no matter how much we trash talk about S9/10 there were just as many complaints about season 7 ruining SG-1 and the franchise and generally being a very weak season. And probably similar things were said about season 6 if only because of the whole Jackson/Quinn wars.

I don't hate Pete, but I never saw him as a well rounded character. If they wanted to give Sam a boyfriend (that didn't die ) they could have done so much more with him. The thing that turned me off from the character was his 'hissy fit' when Sam told him she couldn't tell him what she did. Think about it, Pete was a cop and should have understood what top secret meant. To me it looked like they wanted to show hims as the "Hey, my girlfriend is a super hero" guy.

One thing about s7 being a weak season, is that was when RCC took over as show runner. and I think it showed.

And as much as there have been complaints about other seasons (there always will be) I think there were more for S9/10, and for me, there were more bad episodes than good episodes in the seasons than the other seasons.

[jckfan55]

^for me the earlier seasons all had a few episodes I didn't particularly like, but they had good points. The meh ones were the exception. For me in S9/10 the *good* ones were the exception.

[silly sally]

I don't hate Pete, but I never saw him as a well rounded character. If they wanted to give Sam a boyfriend (that didn't die ) they could have done so much more with him. The thing that turned me off from the character was his 'hissy fit' when Sam told him she couldn't tell him what she did. Think about it, Pete was a cop and should have understood what top secret meant. To me it looked like they wanted to show hims as the "Hey, my girlfriend is a super hero" guy.

One thing about s7 being a weak season, is that was when RCC took over as show runner. and I think it showed.

And as much as there have been complaints about other seasons (there always will be) I think there were more for S9/10, and for me, there were more bad episodes than good episodes in the seasons than the other seasons.

Come on, Season 7 a weak season???? "Grace", "Death Knell", "Heroes", not to mention "Lost City" the best piece of Stargate program ever...

[scifithinker]

Interestingly enough, the two episodes I actually really liked Vala in (Line in the Sand and the Road Not Taken) were both written by the same person and the ones I was able to mostly tolerate her were written by BW.

I'm glad you pointed that out since Alan McCullough was the one hired by the Sanctuary crew. It's nice to be able to distinguish him from the rest of the writers.

You know I was going to post a question to the people posting about Pete: Do you hate Pete as a character or just the "Carter's love life" sub-plot ? Because I can't remember Pete being all that objectionable.

Then I actually remember Pete's first episode. *Shudders* And how he pretty much ended up stalking her until he got his ass lasered off by Osiris. But I'm reasonably sure he got better in later episodes.

So this brought me around to the thought, no matter how much we trash talk about S9/10 there were just as many complaints about season 7 ruining SG-1 and the franchise and generally being a very weak season. And probably similar things were said about season 6 if only because of the whole Jackson/Quinn wars.

I think the idea of a boyfriend for Carter was sound, but the execution was lacking. What kills me is the continuity problem. There is no way an outsider would have been briefed on the stargate simply because of what he had seen and his relationship with Carter. And Carter wouldn't have continued the relationship once she knew how Pete responded to the knowledge her job was classified. She's too professional to risk the program that way. It's a case of sacrificing continuity for plot, and it didn't work. It also foreshadowed things to come.

I had no problem with season 6. MS chose to leave, so the show had to evolve. The transition to Jonas and the lack of Daniel led to significant growing pains, and I thought it was far more realistic than the introduction of Mitchell after RDA chose to leave.

^for me the earlier seasons all had a few episodes I didn't particularly like, but they had good points. The meh ones were the exception. For me in S9/10 the *good* ones were the exception.

Jckfan, you summed it up well. I kept watching, hoping for occasional flashes of what the show had been earlier. There were a few, but not many.

[slurredspeech]

I had no problem whatsoever with Jonas, nor the idea of Pete for that matter. Execution with the latter though... a fiasco. (And on the side note, what on earth was he turned into in Threads? He might not have been brilliant in Chimera or emotionally perceptive in Affinity but did they have to turn him into a blithering simpleton just for the sake of plot?)

The way I see it, most regular viewers of any show - big fans especially - love shows for characters. The plot may lure in, but characters make one stay. Which doesn't necessarily equal them being in the forefront of everything all the time. They live the story, possibly even lead it at times, but don't have to be the story themselves in each episode, if that makes sense. The plot will change the, mold them, affect them, and they will grow through it. But their evolvment can't happen in and of itself, as a stand-alone.
The scene that pops into my head (one of many) is Jack and Teal'c in Lost City, at the rings. Now that, that's character golden moment, IMO.

IMHO, this is where S9/10 (perhaps even 8?) went wrong - ruining the characters. Besides the obvious in-your-face forcing of the two newly introduced, any continuity that the other three might have had went down the drain. And not just to fit the new storylines. I'm sure SG-1 would have been able to fight the Ori just as well with the more sensitive Daniel, competent and strong Carter, and Teal'c who didn't immediately trust the new leader of the group solely for participating in a battle his job required him to take part in.
The point would, I guess be, there may have been some bumps along the road in earlier seasons, but I cared about those people and what happened to them. I was emotionally invested in their endeavours, even if some weren't as appealing as others. Ascended and Jaffa were never my absolute favorites but they were overall well done and important to the people I fell in love with over the years. I wasn't head over heels for Martouf but it pained me because Carter had to shoot him. Abyss I found far from great but Ba'al was exceptional and gosh! Jack! And the conflict of Daniel's situation!
That sort of thing.

Except for Carter and Teal'c in the last two seasons, I couldn't care less whether any of them lived or died. The fact that they made it hard for them to get so much as a scraped knee all the more accentuated that sentiment.

Okay. That was... longer than I intended. Apologies.