S10: Critique & Contemplation

[silly sally]

But how do you tell the difference? I've seen people here post the same arguments, the same tired complaints over and over and over for year after year after year. Tell me how this is okay. And it's not just the Mitchell thing I complained about. I see with other things too. At what point have these arguments been done to death?

That's not for you to decide! If you feel something is against GW rules go ahead and report the poster and the mods will decide!

[Mandysg1]

Could you take this to PM with Tame please.

[TameFarrar]

But how do you tell the difference? I've seen people here post the same arguments, the same tired complaints over and over and over for year after year after year. Tell me how this is okay. And it's not just the Mitchell thing I complained about. I see with other things too. At what point have these arguments been done to death?

Could you take this to PM with Tame please.

Shards I am going to agree with both posts after yours...first it is not up to you...if you feel it breaks the rules in some way report it and second...Mandy has made an excellent point, if you feel this deserves further discussion please PM me so I can further answer your personal issue with it and folks can get on with the topics in the thread.

[jckfan55]

I agree to a certain extent. One of the many things that irritated me about the beginning of Season 9 was the lack of character development for Cam after Avalon Pt. 1. I was really excited about Ben being on the show and although I had problems with the way Cam was introduced, I still believed they needed to spend more time and effort establishing the character.

However, I think waiting until Babylon was too little, too late. They needed to have a more Cam-centric episode within the first few eps. Instead, they decided to focus almost exclusively on the Ori, Vala, and Daniel. I know they wanted to set up the new bad guys and new big story arc, but they needed to take more time to develop all of the characters as well. Unfortunately for most of the first few eps, Cam really felt almost like a tag-a-long. If Ben was supposed to be the new star of the show and Cam the new leader of the team, the writers needed to do a better job setting up the character in the first three or four eps.

And I didn’t feel we learned much about Cam in Babylon. We learned that he has strength and perseverance and that he can take care of himself on his own, but we had already learned that from Avalon Pt.1. It would have been nice to see another aspect of the character. I also think it would have been nice if he had been stuck with one of the other team members. That way they would have been able to establish a growing bond between Cam and at least one of the other characters. So often in Season 9, Cam seemed to be off on his own. It wasn’t really until the second half of the season that we got to see more of his relationship with Sam especially, but we didn’t get much of that in the first half. That bond between all of the characters was something that was really missing for me.

So I agree that Cam really needed his own focus-episode. I just don't think Babylon did the job all that well.

Well said. I'm with you on this. I think we needed more of Cam bonding with the team than we got. I'm all about team.

[jckfan55]

That's a very good point about letting Vala join SG-1. And it's a point of contention I have with Cam leading SG-1. With Sam gone, there should have been plenty of people to choose from to lead SG-1, I mean we've got what at least 17 teams if not more. Why not bring in Reynolds or Dixon as leader? Let Cam work with them, learn the ropes. Or since they both already have their teams, why not bring in anyone who had been going through the gate for awhile, even make Cam one of those people instead. It just wasn't right and didn't fit with what we had already seen as the standard for placing people on SG-1.

They could have even had a line from Landry or Teal'c early on commenting that Dixon or Reynolds were pleased with Mitchell's work. Or Daniel could have said to him when they met "Yeah, I heard your off world training with SG3 went well and they were giving you your own team." Something.

[KatG]

Exactly. It wouldn't have taken much to make it fit canon. Just a line or two acknowledging that he had experience would have made all the difference in the world.

[jasminaGo]

They could have even had a line from Landry or Teal'c early on commenting that Dixon or Reynolds were pleased with Mitchell's work. Or Daniel could have said to him when they met "Yeah, I heard your off world training with SG3 went well and they were giving you your own team." Something.

But then they would have had to get rid of the ever so dramatic first meeting between Mitchell and the Gate, and the hushed conversations between Walter and whomever about "Mitchell... The Mitchell". It all went wrong right there at the beginning, and instead of improving it just kept sinking to the point where nothing could have brought the show back to the surface.

[suse]

But then they would have had to get rid of the ever so dramatic first meeting between Mitchell and the Gate, and the hushed conversations between Walter and whomever about "Mitchell... The Mitchell". It all went wrong right there at the beginning, and instead of improving it just kept sinking to the point where nothing could have brought the show back to the surface.

You slay me, Jasmina.

suse

[HPMom]

Actually, it was S8, with Jack as General and the Russian Colonel that was taken over by Anubis. Jack wouldn't even let him go through the gate until he had gone through training and even then, wasn't willing to let him join SG-1 with no gate experience and this was when SG-1 was still a three man team.

I knew I heard that somewhere. I really don't mind the character of Cam, I think they did a good job of making him likable, but the back story should have been more convincing as to why he should be in SG1 and/or be the leader.

I also felt as though the writers thought they had to go to great lengths to fill Jack's shoes, even to the extreme of getting 2 actors from a previously successful SciFi show. That offended me a bit because Sam, Daniel and Teal'c are strong enough characters to carry the show on their own. I feel like they thought we needed some kind of gimmick to keep us watching, but SG1 lovers only needed the 3 of them and the 4th could have been BB or CB or some other actor and a 5th wasn't even needed. I know a lot of people won't agree with that, that's just how I feel.

[Mandysg1]

I knew I heard that somewhere. I really don't mind the character of Cam, I think they did a good job of making him likable, but the back story should have been more convincing as to why he should be in SG1 and/or be the leader.

I also felt as though the writers thought they had to go to great lengths to fill Jack's shoes, even to the extreme of getting 2 actors from a previously successful SciFi show. That offended me a bit because Sam, Daniel and Teal'c are strong enough characters to carry the show on their own. I feel like they thought we needed some kind of gimmick to keep us watching, but SG1 lovers only needed the 3 of them and the 4th could have been BB or CB or some other actor and a 5th wasn't even needed. I know a lot of people won't agree with that, that's just how I feel.

They did well adding a new character in S6 when MS left. They let fans slowly get used to him, not pushing him on the team at first...they actually had Jack reluctant to have Jonas on the team. They could have done something similar with Cam, ease him into the team, let the viewers get to know him through interactions with Sam, Daniel and Teal'c. And if they needed him to be the 'guy in awe of the gate' and 'first time seeing the gate', they shouldn't have made him leader of SG1.

With Sam's absence from the show for the first few episodes, they could have had him training with Daneil and Teal'c under another commander until she was able to return (there could have been so many better possibilities for her absence). In Shades of Grey, when Jack 'retired' they put Col Makepeace in charge of SG1, because Hammond said they needed the most experienced leader for the flag ship team and Sam had just gotten her promotion to Major, but wasn't ready to lead a team yet. That's the type of continuity that was sadly misssing from s9 and 10.

[EvenstarSRV]

I thought Sam just seemed to be along for the ride. Between them trying to fit Cam in and give him a personality and Daniel and Vala bickering like school children that Sam's character got a bit side lined. Plus in some of the episodes they made Daniel really juvenile. In the past Jack and Daniel would spar, but not to the point Daniel did in season 9 and 10. I think the humorous/seriousness is a balancing act on the show, go too much in one direction and it doesn't work. In S9 & 10 they went way too much to the humorous side.

Well put. The humor in Stargate is something I've always enjoyed, but I really liked that it was, for the most part, used to embellish a scene or relationship rather than define it. Jack and Daniel often had their banter, but it didn't define their relationship, IMO, because it was balanced with more serious moments.

With the Daniel and Vala relationship, it felt like the topics they argued over were trivial by comparison, mostly Vala bugging him about treasure and Daniel shutting her down. It felt like the opportunities for the characters to have a serious discussion were all to often sacrificed for a laugh.

[Petra]

Good example, esp since the episode was supposed to be a Teal'c episode, but as to what happened from conception to the final product, I doubt we'll ever know.

Can I ask how do we know it? I've heard it many times, but can someone point me to the source? I'm just curious.

Another lack of continuity, was lack of Jack. Not him on the show, but the characters never mentioning him. When Daniel died, in the opening of S6 they were still mourning and mentioning him. Jack had been with Sam, Daniel and Teal'c for 8 years (1 less for Daniel) and they never mention him

Oh boy, don't get me started on this! It's one of the things I hate the most in season 9 & 10. Daniel had been on the team for 5 years prior to his ascension. Then we got the last episode of season 5 showing how the team was grieving and then we got constant mentions of him (not to mention 3 episodes where he played a big part, not pathetic little cameos Jack had in Avalon, Origin and 200) throughout season 6 - to the point when I started to think it wasn't really fair to the Jonas character. (yeah, I'm a Jonas fan, so sue me )

If Jack got half of this attention in seasons 9-10 I'd be quite happy. Hell, I'd be content if they said on show exactly what happened to him, cos the way it played out? In the last episode of season 8 Jack was in charge of the SGC and in the first episode of season 9 there's a new general and Jack's nowhere to be seen. Nobody asks about him, nobody explains what happened, we just get one small scene where we learn he sold his house and bike. And that's it. We are left in the dark. My mom who also watches SG-1 - she's seen all the episodes - but isn't involved on-line kept asking me what happened to Jack, why isn't he at the SGC, why no one remebers him? She, a casual viewer, was totally confused.

But of course that's not an end, because for the rest of the series TPTB do everything in their power to make us forget that Jack ever existed. He isn't mentioned at all in passing or in reference to something, and is blatantly left out of the scenes where he should be included, like in TRNT when Sam asks about EVERYBODY except Jack or Unending..am I really supposed to believe Jack's best friends for 8 (9 in Daniel's case) years wouldn't mention his name even once in 50 years?! This episode left such a sour taste in my mouth that I can't even find the words to describe it.

Come to think about it, Jack was ignored only in season 10, while in season 9 they mentioned him, but always in insulting (to me) way, like when Landry said Jack hadn't opened his desk drawer even once in the whole year he'd commanded the whole freaking SGC. What? I know he's being a general was mostly played for laughs - which is a crying shame - but come on, that's ridiculous! Or when Teal'c says Mitchell reminds him of O'Neill. Huh? Or when Landry invites everybody to Jack's cabin (which mysteriously moved from Minnesota to Colorado) even though we know Jack's a very private man and he invites over just his closest friends (which excludes Landry, Mitchell and Vala)

Oops..looks like I've gone on a bit of the rant here, sorry guys I really needed to get it off my chest though.

[silly sally]

Can I ask how do we know it? I've heard it many times, but can someone point me to the source? I'm just curious.



Oh boy, don't get me started on this! It's one of the things I hate the most in season 9 & 10. Daniel had been on the team for 5 years prior to his ascension. Then we got the last episode of season 5 showing how the team was grieving and then we got constant mentions of him (not to mention 3 episodes where he played a big part, not pathetic little cameos Jack had in Avalon, Origin and 200) throughout season 6 - to the point when I started to think it wasn't really fair to the Jonas character. (yeah, I'm a Jonas fan, so sue me )

If Jack got half of this attention in seasons 9-10 I'd be quite happy. Hell, I'd be content if they said on show exactly what happened to him, cos the way it played out? In the last episode of season 8 Jack was in charge of the SGC and in the first episode of season 9 there's a new general and Jack's nowhere to be seen. Nobody asks about him, nobody explains what happened, we just get one small scene where we learn he sold his house and bike. And that's it. We are left in the dark. My mom who also watches SG-1 - she's seen all the episodes - but isn't involved on-line kept asking me what happened to Jack, why isn't he at the SGC, why no one remebers him? She, a casual viewer, was totally confused.

But of course that's not an end, because for the rest of the series TPTB do everything in their power to make us forget that Jack ever existed. He isn't mentioned at all in passing or in reference to something, and is blatantly left out of the scenes where he should be included, like in TRNT when Sam asks about EVERYBODY except Jack or Unending..am I really supposed to believe Jack's best friends for 8 (9 in Daniel's case) years wouldn't mention his name even once in 50 years?! This episode left such a sour taste in my mouth that I can't even find the words to describe it.

Come to think about it, Jack was ignored only in season 10, while in season 9 they mentioned him, but always in insulting (to me) way, like when Landry said Jack hadn't opened his desk drawer even once in the whole year he'd commanded the whole freaking SGC. What? I know he's being a general was mostly played for laughs - which is a crying shame - but come on, that's ridiculous! Or when Teal'c says Mitchell reminds him of O'Neill. Huh? Or when Landry invites everybody to Jack's cabin (which mysteriously moved from Minnesota to Colorado) even though we know Jack's a very private man and he invites over just his closest friends (which excludes Landry, Mitchell and Vala)

Oops..looks like I've gone on a bit of the rant here, sorry guys I really needed to get it off my chest though.

I agree that Coop treated Jack like crap in S9-10. Heck he was treated far better in Atlantis (meaty roles, several mentions including in Atlantis finale!)

[jckfan55]

Can I ask how do we know it? I've heard it many times, but can someone point me to the source? I'm just curious.



Oh boy, don't get me started on this! It's one of the things I hate the most in season 9 & 10. Daniel had been on the team for 5 years prior to his ascension. Then we got the last episode of season 5 showing how the team was grieving and then we got constant mentions of him (not to mention 3 episodes where he played a big part, not pathetic little cameos Jack had in Avalon, Origin and 200) throughout season 6 - to the point when I started to think it wasn't really fair to the Jonas character. (yeah, I'm a Jonas fan, so sue me )

If Jack got half of this attention in seasons 9-10 I'd be quite happy. Hell, I'd be content if they said on show exactly what happened to him, cos the way it played out? In the last episode of season 8 Jack was in charge of the SGC and in the first episode of season 9 there's a new general and Jack's nowhere to be seen. Nobody asks about him, nobody explains what happened, we just get one small scene where we learn he sold his house and bike. And that's it. We are left in the dark. My mom who also watches SG-1 - she's seen all the episodes - but isn't involved on-line kept asking me what happened to Jack, why isn't he at the SGC, why no one remebers him? She, a casual viewer, was totally confused.

But of course that's not an end, because for the rest of the series TPTB do everything in their power to make us forget that Jack ever existed. He isn't mentioned at all in passing or in reference to something, and is blatantly left out of the scenes where he should be included, like in TRNT when Sam asks about EVERYBODY except Jack or Unending..am I really supposed to believe Jack's best friends for 8 (9 in Daniel's case) years wouldn't mention his name even once in 50 years?! This episode left such a sour taste in my mouth that I can't even find the words to describe it.

Come to think about it, Jack was ignored only in season 10, while in season 9 they mentioned him, but always in insulting (to me) way, like when Landry said Jack hadn't opened his desk drawer even once in the whole year he'd commanded the whole freaking SGC. What? I know he's being a general was mostly played for laughs - which is a crying shame - but come on, that's ridiculous! Or when Teal'c says Mitchell reminds him of O'Neill. Huh? Or when Landry invites everybody to Jack's cabin (which mysteriously moved from Minnesota to Colorado) even though we know Jack's a very private man and he invites over just his closest friends (which excludes Landry, Mitchell and Vala)

Oops..looks like I've gone on a bit of the rant here, sorry guys I really needed to get it off my chest though.

I'm so with you (though I'm not as big a Jonas fan as you are). You're spot on with all of the above.

[leiasky]

I didn't quote all of Col Aga's post but I'll just add here that I completely agree with you.

I agree that Coop treated Jack like crap in S9-10. Heck he was treated far better in Atlantis (meaty roles, several mentions including in Atlantis finale!)

Atlantis had different showrunners. Not the best, in my opinion, especially in the last two seasons, but better than RCC in most instances as far as continuity and keeping past characters that made a huge impact on the Stargate program in the minds of the characters that were still front and center.