S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Callista]

That's the thing. He put up with it for two years! It seems very strange that he would snap now. The argument can be made that it was stress of being trapped on the ship, but, it still seemed a bit odd to me. I think the actors intended it to be odd though, in that it was a function of the situation that caused confrontation, leading them to, uh... behave in a way that they wouldn't have at the SGC.

Yeah, I think that's what they were going for. I suppose since they only had 45 minutes to tell the whole story that the "being stuck here with these same people for years and years" thing didn't get driven home as much as it could have if it were longer. Of course, if it were longer, most of the viewers probably would have gone just as stir-crazy as SG-1 did.

For me, though, I can completely believe that being stuck out there in space with only a few people...even if they're people you really like...for years and years would make me act in completely unusual ways. Especially if you have a nice big view of the thing that will eventually kill you right outside the window. I think I would eventually let all my pent up emotions pour out. And man, Daniel had to have had a lot of pent up emotions on that subject!

[Khentkawes]

Oops! I didn't even see the other thread until you guys mentioned it. I guess I thought the two original threads got merged together or something. I was looking for a general discussion thread with people able to represent both positive and negative opinions as well as just picking up insights that might enhance my viewing of the show. So far this thread seems fine for that, although maybe both of them are?

Yes, that's my understanding. The mods decided to leave both threads open, but both are open for all respectful discussion.

This is probably a function of the fact that both actors objected to the scene, which they thought was out of character for both. They decided that the only way they could make it work is if both characters were out of character in the scene. That's why Daniel is so mean, and Vala is so open.

That's not quite the way I heard it. I heard that Claudia and Michael objected to the way it was originally written, and they sat down with RCC, after which the scene was re-written, and that rewrite is what we saw. I believe I heard a co-goer say that Michael asked an audience at a con for a raise of hands of how many people thought it was OOC for Daniel and how many people thought it was in-character, and got about a 50/50 response.
I have heard MS give his take on it in interviews, and he explains why he thinks Daniel acted this way and why he doesn't see Daniel's behavior as OOC. Which is not to say that fans can't find it OOC, because that's a valid response. It just sounded like you were implying that the actors didn't like the scene either, which is not quite what I've heard. But if I misunderstood your comment, I apologize.

I think I'm one of the only people that actually liked that scene. I didn't see Daniel as being mean at all. If anything I was surprised it took him that long to tell her off!

Well, you're not the only one. Because I liked it too.

[EvenstarSRV]

I never found that scene shockin, just sensible. I was surprised when I found out that I was in the minority on that. I figured, hey, they're Goa'uld. They're going to be put into Jaffa to enslave them and them into hosts. 2 enslavements for each larval Goa'uld... If anything, I was surprised that Sam was so shortsighted.

I was just watching Bloodlines the other day (finally got my hands on the season 1 DVDs ) and I wouldn't say Sam was shortsighted but more prioritizing the security of the mission over killing a few Goa'uld, since they were undercover on Chulak and Daniel's actions likely alerted the Jaffa to their presence.

Now to keep this post from being too off-topic...

And I never saw Mitchell as a commander either, just an addition member to the team. IMO, they didn't need a formal commander, and that's why they made decisions by committee, or by consensus in most cases.

The Ethon and Off the Grid were the first season 9 episodes I saw, which is probably why I still have issues with the Mitchell character based on that first impression.

What struck me in OTG was that the decision for Mitchell to pose as a drug dealer was not made by committee or consensus, but because Mitchell seemed to ignore the advice of 3 SG-1 veterans and did what he wanted to do with nearly lethal consequences. Not the best first impression for the character I'm suppose to believe deserves to call himself SG-1 leader.

And then in Ethon, SG-1 trying to decide whether or not to destroy the Ori satellite was sort of done by committee/consensus, with Pendergast urging them to make up their minds quickly, and I think that their hesitance in making an decision contributed to the Prometheus's destruction.

That introduction to season 9's SG-1 really made me feel that the team did need an experienced formal commander like it had in seasons 1-8. The idea of an elite front-line military unit like SG-1 not having a definitive chain of command just felt odd to me.

[amconway]

I have heard MS give his take on it in interviews, and he explains why he thinks Daniel acted this way and why he doesn't see Daniel's behavior as OOC. Which is not to say that fans can't find it OOC, because that's a valid response. It just sounded like you were implying that the actors didn't like the scene either, which is not quite what I've heard. But if I misunderstood your comment, I apologize.

I must have seen their take on the original scene--I hadn't realized it was rewritten. *is appalled imagining what the initial scene must have been like.*

I might not care for the writing choices in the scene, but I think the actors handled it very well. I'm of two minds about it really. When I first saw it, I was rather shocked, but really, given being trapped there and all the water under the bridge, I can see him really letting the pissed off out. It's not like we don't know that Daniel has a temper and haven't seen it in action before This did seem a little different, though, although I can't seem to pin down how...

[Melora]

Daniel could only function as an archeologist if Vala stayed to the sideline, otherwise he wouldn't be able to work. Likewise, when the scene was about Vala's antics, he also couldn't function in any meaningful way without her interfering. Both of these characters were only able to actually do something if the writers weren't doing the 'Daniel/Vala' dynamic.

Very good point. By the end of S10, I felt the characters were not really good for each other and this only reinforces that. If one has to take a backseat so the other can do his or her thing, it isn't really a complementary relationship or dynamic. No matter what you think about the Jack/Sam relationship (or lack thereof), they both were always able to do their jobs and work together in a complementary way. I never felt one character had to play a passive role in order for the other to play an active role in an ep.

I tended to like Vala more when she was not interacting with Daniel. I thought she was a terrific character in LITS and I really liked her interaction with Teal'c in "Uninvited." Whenever she was around Daniel, I just got the impression she was trying too hard to get to him. Their bickering got annoying really quickly. I also have to admit that I didn't like Daniel much when he was around Vala. I don't mind angry/passionate Daniel (like he was in S5) but I didn't like snarky/annoyed Daniel in S9 and 10. Part of that is me selfishly not wanting him to change so much and become so jaded. It might have been a natural progression for the character, but it was a progression I didn't really care for.

This is probably a function of the fact that both actors objected to the scene, which they thought was out of character for both. They decided that the only way they could make it work is if both characters were out of character in the scene. That's why Daniel is so mean, and Vala is so open.

Don't let it change your opinion of the characters. Remember, it never happened!

That's true, that part of the ep never happened. I like to pretend the rest of the episode never happened as well. ((()))

[amconway]

Whenever she was around Daniel, I just got the impression she was trying too hard to get to him. Their bickering got annoying really quickly. I also have to admit that I didn't like Daniel much when he was around Vala. I don't mind angry/passionate Daniel (like he was in S5) but I didn't like snarky/annoyed Daniel in S9 and 10. Part of that is me selfishly not wanting him to change so much and become so jaded. It might have been a natural progression for the character, but it was a progression I didn't really care for.

Heh, I didn't see it so much as a character progression as a temporary thing. Since my reaction to Vala's behavior was pretty much the same, I really couldn't call him down for it. Especially since he was so much nicer about it than I would have been.

[jasminaGo]

When did they make him grumpy? He started to take things in stride, but he's still pretty upbeat. Can't agree with you about the character. I don't think it was a bad idea to bring in a character who could be excited about the program.

Being excited about the Stargate program is the only thing they did right with Mitchell's character, IMHO. It would have been good to see the galaxy through fresh eyes. It kinda reminded me of the first time Sam saw an open wormhole, bringing back some of the wonder of the program.

However the problem was in the fact that the new excited kid on the block was made in charge of the levelheaded and experienced team members. Many times on this thread it was mentioned that it would have been better to have the character of Mitchell brought in as a Major, and have Amanda's maternity leave explained in a different way (Sam is still the leader of SG1, but away on some mission/project that needs her expertise, and since the leave of Teal'c and Daniel she didn't have the time to pick out a new team yet). Had they did this it would have solved few problems, like the whole "co-command" thing they tried to put up (especially since there is no such thing as co-command in the military, there is a "chain of command" with clear hierarchy ), and second it would have given some sort of absolution of Mitchell rash actions. Cause honestly a lot of the time he was acting like a 2nd Lt, instead of a Lt. Colonel.


On the Daniel/Vala thing, I gotta say I only enjoyed the characters when they were far away from each other.

What pains me the most is that Vala had the basis of being a wonderfully complex character. She was a host for years suffering through things one can only imagine, freed and then dumped out on the street by the Tok'ra, and can't go back home. So she learns to survive by any means, if the galaxy wasn't nice to her why should she be nice to the galaxy? Instead of growing and adding on that experience, 95% of the time Vala was used as nothing more then a pretty prop, lashing out sexual innuendos and throwing herself at Daniel. *sigh*

[Gregorius]

Small remark: The "Action!Jackson" nickname. From what I can recall it's been in use for a long time and it's not even a derogatory nickname, it's more of a shorthand for "Daniel S7 and beyond". Alternatives include <mod snip>and plain Jackson.

[Crazedwraith]

I must have seen their take on the original scene--I hadn't realized it was rewritten. *is appalled imagining what the initial scene must have been like.*

IIRC, originally there was no scene between them and we find out they hooked up solely from shot where Vala's coming out of Daniel's room as Cam runs past.

I might not care for the writing choices in the scene, but I think the actors handled it very well. I'm of two minds about it really. When I first saw it, I was rather shocked, but really, given being trapped there and all the water under the bridge, I can see him really letting the pissed off out. It's not like we don't know that Daniel has a temper and haven't seen it in action before This did seem a little different, though, although I can't seem to pin down how...

I didn't have a problem with Daniel's explosion and little rant at Vala. Which we wre probably meant to feel was out of line and over the top and far too mean to poor perfect Vala, whereas I thought it was a pretty much bang on description of past events.

What I dislike was the depiction of Vala being totally genuine and innocent and emotionally hurt and then Daniel relents.

[jckfan55]

One example of how I think Daniel's behavior was for the worse around Vala. Remember in the episode where the Lucien alliance captures the Odyssey(?) ? Sam comes up with the idea of beaming out. Vala has to do the beaming. While she's trying to get a lock, get things set up--whatever--he's at her elbow nagging--"ready yet? Hurry up" or words to that effect. Not only is that annoying, but he could have gotten Sam killed that way (good thing she decided to beam the bad guy out instead of Sam as planned).

[suse]

I was just watching Bloodlines the other day (finally got my hands on the season 1 DVDs ) and I wouldn't say Sam was shortsighted but more prioritizing the security of the mission over killing a few Goa'uld, since they were undercover on Chulak and Daniel's actions likely alerted the Jaffa to their presence.

Me too. Though I totally understood where Daniel was coming from...

EvenstarSRV said:
The Ethon and Off the Grid were the first season 9 episodes I saw, which is probably why I still have issues with the Mitchell character based on that first impression.

What struck me in OTG was that the decision for Mitchell to pose as a drug dealer was not made by committee or consensus, but because Mitchell seemed to ignore the advice of 3 SG-1 veterans and did what he wanted to do with nearly lethal consequences. Not the best first impression for the character I'm suppose to believe deserves to call himself SG-1 leader.

And then in Ethon, SG-1 trying to decide whether or not to destroy the Ori satellite was sort of done by committee/consensus, with Pendergast urging them to make up their minds quickly, and I think that their hesitance in making an decision contributed to the Prometheus's destruction.

That introduction to season 9's SG-1 really made me feel that the team did need an experienced formal commander like it had in seasons 1-8. The idea of an elite front-line military unit like SG-1 not having a definitive chain of command just felt odd to me.

I agree it was an weakness in Ethon that they had to commune to decide what to do. It's why I think the 'co-leader' thing was such a... less than stellar idea. Ethon was one of the two eps I liked for the *whole* season though.

Mitchell also showed his.. less than cool under pressure ... command abilities in Stronghold. Stronghold and Off The Grid were the end of me even trying to like the character. He joined the team the one SAM was leading rescuing Teal'c and decided he - the guy who had never been on a Goauld ship before - would be the one to rescue Teal'c. Because:

CARTER: If we all go, we could be caught up with no way of getting back off the ship. (beat) You go, we got your back.

She opens the control panel, exposing the crystals within.

MITCHELL: Are you sure about that?

CARTER: (pointedly) Am I going to be able to stop you?

MITCHELL: I don't think so -- I'm in a bad mood today.

We got what I thought was a decent ep (Ethon) the next week and then the disaster that was Off the Grid -yet another demonstration of Mitchell's *awesome* readiness for the Stargate SG team leadership and patience.

suse

[EvenstarSRV]

One example of how I think Daniel's behavior was for the worse around Vala. Remember in the episode where the Lucien alliance captures the Odyssey(?) ? Sam comes up with the idea of beaming out. Vala has to do the beaming. While she's trying to get a lock, get things set up--whatever--he's at her elbow nagging--"ready yet? Hurry up" or words to that effect. Not only is that annoying, but he could have gotten Sam killed that way (good thing she decided to beam the bad guy out instead of Sam as planned).

I remember finding Daniel's behavior in that episode rather odd as well. Though the scene that really bothered me was where Daniel seemed to be accusing Vala of keeping some of the money they gave her to get that ship. It just seemed like an odd attitude for him to have towards her after Momento Mori when Vala had become part of the team.

[suse]

I remember finding Daniel's behavior in that episode rather odd as well. Though the scene that really bothered me was where Daniel seemed to be accusing Vala of keeping some of the money they gave her to get that ship. It just seemed like an odd attitude for him to have towards her after Momento Mori when Vala had become part of the team.

Doesn't mean she had changed all her spots. Imo she's the type to keep a "stash" so she can go quickly (and alone) if needed. I understand why she's be that way, but I also understand why Daniel wouldn't put it past her.

suse

[EvenstarSRV]

Doesn't mean she had changed all her spots. Imo she's the type to keep a "stash" so she can go quickly (and alone) if needed. I understand why she's be that way, but I also understand why Daniel wouldn't put it past her.

suse

Very true, Vala's history does go against her trustworthiness, but they seemed to make such a deal of her being accepted onto SG-1 in the previous episode, that I presumed in doing so they trusted her to be a contributing teammate and not someone who would bail on them.

So it felt odd to me that she was not at least given the benefit of doubt in Company of Thieves when she got them the ship. Why would Daniel, and the rest of SG-1 for that matter, have accepted Vala onto the team in Momento Mori if they didn't trust her to put the team before herself?

[suse]

Very true, Vala's history does go against her trustworthiness, but they seemed to make such a deal of her being accepted onto SG-1 in the previous episode, that I presumed in doing so they trusted her to be a contributing teammate and not someone who would bail on them.

So it felt odd to me that she was not at least given the benefit of doubt in Company of Thieves when she got them the ship. Why would Daniel, and the rest of SG-1 for that matter, have accepted Vala onto the team in Momento Mori if they didn't trust her to put the team before herself?

Consistency is not a strong point off the latter seasons.

suse