S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Callista]

And about Action Jackson, I have no problem with him because to me he was AJ since the movie and early season...I never saw him as the naive or pacifist one...Look at The Movie or Broca Divide when the Touched were raping Melosha and he suggested to do nothing, or Bloodline, or Serpent Song, or the no consequences suggestion to Jack and Teal'c in WoO, The Beast Of Burden where he armed the Unas...I think I saw Daniel to do his job in season 9 and 10 more than in the previous seasons...

There was also Blood Ties - that was a crucial episode, and a rather shocking scene in a lot of ways, for Daniel's character, where he shoots the tank full of larval goa'uld. Sam wasn't going to, but Daniel didn't hesitate. All he saw were more hosts like Sha're, not a tankful of defenceless young.

I agree with both of you on that point. (EDIT: Make that: I agree with all three of you since amconway's post got up there ahead of mine.) I don't see Daniel as being any more "action" oriented in the late seasons than I do in the early seasons....except for his physical appearance.

I agree especially with you, madaboutdanny, in that he's better at the rest of his job (not just his scientific/language/negotiating skills) in the later seasons. Frankly, I would think Jack would have kicked him right off the team in the first couple of seasons for putting everyone else in danger all the time. By season 10, he's able to comport himself in a manner fitting for a front-line team.

I do think that he is more jaded, though, by season 10. But I don't see that as happening all of the sudden. I see it as a gradual progression over the years. (EDIT AGAIN: I'm going to change my mind about this. Upon further reflection, I think he was more jaded overall in season 5. I think in season 10 he's more just weary of the ancients/ascended beings.)

As to Vala and the sexual harrassment: Thanks, Greg, for the references you found. In particular the line stating that the harrasser may not realize that what they're doing constitutes sexual harrassment. I can understand Vala not understanding why her behavior is so inappropriate since she comes from an entirely alien background. Just like the example of Daniel accepting the behavior of the guys on Melosha's planet....it's just the way their society does things. Maybe Vala is used to a society that behaves in that manner. What bugs me is that apparently no one else ever took her aside and told her that it is completely unacceptable in the SGC. I think the closest we ever got to that was Cam telling her not to take advantage of actually inhabiting Daniel's body in "Crusade" because Daniel wasn't there to defend himself. And I have a hard time accepting that they let her officially join the team in season 10 without making it clear to her what type of behavior would be acceptable and what wouldn't. (Although I guess if I'm being fair, most of that behavior was exhibited before she joined the team and not so much afterwards.)

Other than that aspect of her character I quite like Vala, pigtails and all. (Says the 41-year-old lady who wears pigtails when she's cleaning the house or working out. )

[GermanAstra]

Frankly, I would think Jack would have kicked him right off the team in the first couple of seasons for putting everyone else in danger all the time.

Your sentence just reminded me onto the episode "Prototype". While I actually liked this one very much, I think the way things started at the beginning is just wrong. It is wrong on so many levels when Daniel (Daniel of all people!) is the one that has to tell Cam (the leader!), that he shall not touch any things.

They really should have found a different way. Especially with this scene I couldn't help thinking that it never would have happened if Jack still was the leader. I understand we don't want to compare Cam and Jack at all, but this was a point where I automatically did.

[AGateFan]

Your sentence just reminded me onto the episode "Prototype". While I actually liked this one very much, I think the way things started at the beginning is just wrong. It is wrong on so many levels when Daniel (Daniel of all people!) is the one that has to tell Cam (the leader!), that he shall not touch any things.

They really should have found a different way. Especially with this scene I couldn't help thinking that it never would have happened if Jack still was the leader. I understand we don't want to compare Cam and Jack at all, but this was a point where I automatically did.

It wouldn’t have happened had they put a seasoned commander in charge of SG-1. It’s the fundamental flaw of making the new guy an actual newbie and then pretending like he can be in charge of people who have been in the field for 8 years.

So no, it wouldn’t have happened with Jack, it wouldn’t have happened with Carter, it wouldn’t have happened with Col Dixon or Makepeace or even the Sergeant from the earlier seasons whose name escapes me. I wouldn’t happen with any experienced gate team leaders. But for a newbie like Cam it is completely reasonable especially given his less then professional and more then childish behavior in several circumstances.

It was a poorly conceived character who was not helped by the writers until they decided to make him grumpy and that really didn’t do him any good either since it’s basically the same character arch as John Crichton.

Vala shouldn’t have even been on the team seeing how she is an unrepentant slaver/thief/kidnapper/attempted murder. But at least it was a different character then her farscape character. Too bad her farscape character would have been a much better fit as an SG team member.

[Crazedwraith]

Unless Cam was very slowing going massively insane from the stress of being on SG-1, its not the same arc as Chriton at all.

[amconway]

Your sentence just reminded me onto the episode "Prototype". While I actually liked this one very much, I think the way things started at the beginning is just wrong. It is wrong on so many levels when Daniel (Daniel of all people!) is the one that has to tell Cam (the leader!), that he shall not touch any things.

They really should have found a different way. Especially with this scene I couldn't help thinking that it never would have happened if Jack still was the leader. I understand we don't want to compare Cam and Jack at all, but this was a point where I automatically did.

I thought this was a very important episode character-wise. It showed that while Cam knew a lot about what he had experience with, he had tons to learn and he better learn it fast. It showed that he was in much the same position that Daniel had been--knowing a lot about somethings, but not realizing the danger of seemingly small things.

It also showed that Daniel had gone from a man who did not always see the trouble a situation might present to a man who had a clearer vision of that than many of the people around. It also gave a hint as to the toll that takes on him.

[jckfan55]

My problem with Vala, besides her behavior, is that they made her superficial and paired way too much with Daniel. She's an ex-host, a renowned thief, she took over Prommie, and apparantly is smart, but the moment she gets into the vicinity of [Daniel] .... and paired her less with Daniel she might've been a nice character instead of the annoying one, especially with the background they've given her.

I think that is one of my main problems with Vala. There were times where she showed herself to be smart & have some depth, and then the next thing you knew if was back to the immature behavior. Now many have said that such behavior was a cover or coping mechanism—maybe, but that point was never developed. And we barely got any but the most superficial interaction between Vala and anyone but Daniel.

[amconway]

It was a poorly conceived character who was not helped by the writers until they decided to make him grumpy and that really didnt do him any good either since its basically the same character arch as John Crighton.

When did they make him grumpy? He started to take things in stride, but he's still pretty upbeat. Can't agree with you about the character. I don't think it was a bad idea to bring in a character who could be excited about the program.

[Callista]

As much as I like Cam, I've got to admit that he did some pretty hot-headed, poorly thought out things at the beginning. I do like that he brought back some of the excitement of the early seasons because Sam, Teal'c, and Daniel had seen too much to be all gung-ho about everything after all their experience. However, it might have been nice if he'd listened to their advice on occasion.

I do think by season 10 he'd changed, though. I like the scene in Quest, part 2 where he's going to run out to blow up the dragon and Teal'c comes up to let him know that the better person for the job was Teal'c and Cam acknowledges that...even if it did take a few seconds. I think maybe that's why he's the one who tells Vala that being part of the team isn't about being the big hero yourself all the time, it's about understanding that each member of the team has their own strengths and that a true team-player will allow their team-mates to take the job that best suits them, even if it is risky. I think he had only really realized that recently himself so it was more poignant for him to be the one to clue her in.

Maybe I have a different perspective on the two of them because I've never seen Farscape. I tried once, but I could only make it through about ten minutes of the first episode.

I have a question as a newbie to this thread: Is it strictly season 10 or is it kind of 9 and 10 discussion? I ask because none of the other seasons seem to have a "whole season" discussion thread, just discussions for individual episodes.

[amconway]

As much as I like Cam, I've got to admit that he did some pretty hot-headed, poorly thought out things at the beginning. I do like that he brought back some of the excitement of the early seasons because Sam, Teal'c, and Daniel had seen too much to be all gung-ho about everything after all their experience. However, it might have been nice if he'd listened to their advice on occasion.

I do think by season 10 he'd changed, though. I like the scene in Quest, part 2 where he's going to run out to blow up the dragon and Teal'c comes up to let him know that the better person for the job was Teal'c and Cam acknowledges that...even if it did take a few seconds. I think maybe that's why he's the one who tells Vala that being part of the team isn't about being the big hero yourself all the time, it's about understanding that each member of the team has their own strengths and that a true team-player will allow their team-mates to take the job that best suits them, even if it is risky. I think he had only really realized that recently himself so it was more poignant for him to be the one to clue her in.

You make some good points about Cam. I didn't mind that he screwed up at the beginning. It gave the character somwhere to go. I'd never thought about what that scene with Cam and Vala really meant in terms of Cam's character, but you are absolutely correct.

(I'm not sure about what exactly this thread covers as things changed after the vision statement was implemented. Initially, there was both love and hatred of seasons 9 and 10, so two threads were created specifically to serve both camps. That kind of divided discussion is no longer required, so the names were changed)

[suse]

@GateGipsy: From the definition of sexual harassment everything Vala does to Daniel does constitute sexual harassment.


Notice how from the definition the "holding power over" isn't required.



I emphasised the most important part and underlined the parts I think apply to Vala.

As you can see, and was stated before by others and myself, what Vala does does constitute sexual harassment as it's unwanted behavior of a sexual nature. And even if it's not sexual harassment it's close to, if not, stalking. Then again, there does exist something, like Callista noticed, as double standard as to these situations (Well that, and Daniel's always the buttmonkey in these cases, see the episode Hathor where he was basically raped).

Anyway, I disgress from the topic, so I'll head back to S10: My problem with Vala, besides her behavior, is that they made her superficial and paired way too much with Daniel. She's an ex-host, a renowned thief, she took over Prommie, and apparantly is smart, but the moment she gets into the vicinity of Action!Jackson (Or the downed Anubis as character wise he's nothing like S1-6 Daniel) she degrades into the creepy schoolgirl with a crush who can't think for herself. Had they removed or at least toned down the creepy schoogirl part and paired her less with Daniel she might've been a nice character instead of the annoying one, especially with the background they've given her.

Agreed about the sexual harassment. *I* certainly thought it was offensive. Daniel certainly didn't seem to enjoy it (or it wouldn't have been harassment of him.)


The creepy schoolgirl thing was an attempt to tone down the OTT harassment/innuendo of S9. Oy. Let's not forget she specifically came looking for Daniel to force in (literally on pain of death - equals slavery to me) to help her look for "treasure". And we're supposed to respect this character?

This supposedly smart thief was too mouthy to keep her mouth shut in a hostile/unknown situation with unknown but based on the culyure as they knew it, likely not good results. It got her burned to death. *I* don't call that too bright. YMMV.

She was acceptable without Daniel (for the most part). She was great with Tomin.

I actually like large bits of Vala after she settled down a bit. I still have this kneejerk "GAAAAKKKKK!!" reaction every time I hear her name though. *Then* I remember she wasn't terrible in S10. I could have forgiven PU () as a one-shot. It's S9 that destroyed the character for me. After that much reenforcement.... S10 was wayyyyyy too late.

suse

[amconway]

There was also Blood Ties - that was a crucial episode, and a rather shocking scene in a lot of ways, for Daniel's character, where he shoots the tank full of larval goa'uld. Sam wasn't going to, but Daniel didn't hesitate. All he saw were more hosts like Sha're, not a tankful of defenceless young.

I never found that scene shockin, just sensible. I was surprised when I found out that I was in the minority on that. I figured, hey, they're Goa'uld. They're going to be put into Jaffa to enslave them and them into hosts. 2 enslavements for each larval Goa'uld... If anything, I was surprised that Sam was so shortsighted.

I don't mind that people might have a criticism of the character of Daniel they wish to express, but I do mind that he's given a derogatory nickname and I don't believe that is in the spirt of the VS. I will, however, leave this to the other mods to decide on as I am not impartial in this.

I agree. I don't care for derisive name calling and it doesn't further debate at all.

[AGateFan]

Agreed about the sexual harassment. *I* certainly thought it was offensive. Daniel certainly didn't seem to enjoy it (or it wouldn't have been harassment of him.)


The creepy schoolgirl thing was an attempt to tone down the OTT harassment/innuendo of S9. Oy. Let's not forget she specifically came looking for Daniel to force in (literally on pain of death - equals slavery to me) to help her look for "treasure". And we're supposed to respect this character?

This supposedly smart thief was too mouthy to keep her mouth shut in a hostile/unknown situation with unknown but based on the culyure as they knew it, likely not good results. It got her burned to death. *I* don't call that too bright. YMMV.

She was acceptable without Daniel (for the most part). She was great with Tomin.

I actually like large bits of Vala after she settled down a bit. I still have this kneejerk "GAAAAKKKKK!!" reaction every time I hear her name though. *Then* I remember she wasn't terrible in S10. I could have forgiven PU () as a one-shot. It's S9 that destroyed the character for me. After that much reenforcement.... S10 was wayyyyyy too late.

suse

Having taken the sexual harassment training in the USAF and other companies I have worked in over the years I can assure you her behavior was unacceptable. Of course since she already attempted to murder both Gen Hammond and the entire crew of the promethus by leaving them shipwrecked deep in space (where the most likely "rescue" would come from an enemy that would torture them before murdering them). Then ofcourse she basically took Daniel hostage by force of death to steal some money after she enslaved an entire planet of people to steal their money. So I guess when you take that into consideration her sexual harrassment is the last thing they should have been worried about. The character as written was better suited for jail or as a recurring anti-hero like Maybourn or Todd (like all theives/slavers/murders she is a parasidic leach after all).

[AGateFan]

I never found that scene shockin, just sensible. I was surprised when I found out that I was in the minority on that. I figured, hey, they're Goa'uld. They're going to be put into Jaffa to enslave them and them into hosts. 2 enslavements for each larval Goa'uld... If anything, I was surprised that Sam was so shortsighted.



I agree. I don't care for derisive name calling and it doesn't further debate at all.

So can we call Todd, "Todd" is a derisive name for that fictional character, after all.

[Melora]

I have a question as a newbie to this thread: Is it strictly season 10 or is it kind of 9 and 10 discussion? I ask because none of the other seasons seem to have a "whole season" discussion thread, just discussions for individual episodes.

(I'm not sure about what exactly this thread covers as things changed after the vision statement was inmplemented. Initially, there was both love and hatred of seasons 9 and 10, so two threads were created specifically to serve both camps. That kind of divided discussion is no longer required, so the names were changed)

I'm not a newbie on this thread, but I’ve been away for a little bit. I, too, am a little confused about what is and is not on topic for this thread now that the VS has gone into effect. Perhaps a mod could clarify the ground rules a bit more.

Do all posts have to include some sort of critique about Season 10 as is implied in the thread title? Or are posts that completely praise the season with no hint of criticism now considered okay? If we are now allowed to have 100% positive posts as well as 100% negative posts in this thread, what purpose does the “nostalgia, new viewers, and the progression of SG1” thread serve? I would also like to know if it is kosher for people who hated those seasons to go into the nostalgia thread and discuss why they disliked them without mentioning any redeeming features of those seasons? If this is the case, isn't having two threads rather redundant?

I just wanted to add that it is nice to see new posters with differing points of view in here. Seeing so many positive comments will definitely take a little getting used to though. LOL.

[amconway]

So can we call Todd, "Todd" is a derisive name for that fictional character, after all.

Yes. The name 'Todd' was established in the show and is not used to diminish the character or irritate fans of the character.