S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ses110]

I think SciFi wanted to make up for cancelling Farscape. I'm just surprised the whole crew was not brought in to Stargate. I saw trouble coming as soon as I heard BB and CB coming to Stargate. It has nothing to do with the actors. i thought it would be to drastic a change to a show that did not need drastic changes. You bring back a Jonas or Haley or even a Cassie and bring in someone better than the Bori and this show may still be on.

[Skydiver]

Nah. They wanted Ben for Shep. They wanted Ben for Pete. He was busy both times. I have no doubt they wanted him. not sure why they didn't use him effectively, maybe they knew how badly they had blundered with Mitchell even if they couldn't admit it publicly. Though that doesn't explain Vala, even with the change.

suse

ah, but wanting him on atlantis, or wanting him for a recurring role is one thing. Wanting him to be the star??? I don't think that was in coop's plan personally

[Skydiver]

More like finding fools gold

yep, a lump o pyrite. looks pretty from a distance, but get close enough and it's just good for a doorstop

[jasminaGo]

on both counts. I'm sure many of us have mentioned the Peter principle on this thread. RCC's picture would be next to the definition in the dictionary.

And I agree--Threads was had the feel of a natural series ender.
Although I enjoyed certain parts of Moebius on an entertainment level, I'm one of the (few?) ones who didn't like it & my feelings of it as a season ender are even stronger.

I enjoy Moebius (I have a fangirl thing for geek Sam ), but overall that two parter was nothing more than an easy way out for Atlantis season 2. Like Jack said in "200", everything after fishing would be pointless. *looks at seasons 9 and 10* *nods*

[Gregorius]

ah, but wanting him on atlantis, or wanting him for a recurring role is one thing. Wanting him to be the star??? I don't think that was in coop's plan personally

Even if it wasn't his plan, he could've expected SciFi to pull such a stunt as Showtime did it before them with Anise.

The moment he had to write for Ben, he should've taken Farscape into account and given him a different type of character then Crichton to play, as Mitchell was basically Crichton without the wit, intelligence and charm.

But instead they went the Mary Sue road and stopped, well, thinking about how to properly introduce him into the show. It's almost as if they had to justify the character to be likable to themselves and in doing that they screwed up, seriously.

And of course then there were Vala and Action Jackson, two of the worst mistakes ever. Vala's on par with the poorly executed Bori arc, both had potential if properly executed but they were messed up.

And Action Jackson...He tops Vala and Mitchell in annoyance. It's the prime example of how to do a 180 degree turn on a character.

S9 and S10 were prime examples of interesting concepts and piss poor execution due to either a lack of imagination, or foresight, but mostly due to a lack of background stories.

A war between "higher" beings? It's interesting but you need to write it properly to pull it off without people going "Boring, overpowered" or "It looks way too similar to B5's Shadows vs Vorlons or Doctor Who's Time Lords vs Daleks.". If the Goa'uld turned out to be weapons engineered by the Ancients to make humans more powerful in combat against the Bori, or the Asgard's problems being caused by the Ancients giving them advanced technology to help fight the Bori, or the Nox being pacifists because of the bloodshed when the alliance fought against the Bori; that would've made things so much more interesting: Two powerful civilization manipulating lesser beings to fight and drain power of on the lower planes while they go all out on the higher planes.

And with Anubis as a wildcard, it would've been so much more amusing, especially if Vala turned out to be Oma in a moral form to keep tabs on him while he tricks humanity into fighting for him.

Anyway, as I said, a lot of missed opportunities. Same goes for Atlantis basically after season 1: Lots of Deus Ex Machina solutions, and actions that make you question what the writers were on when they wrote it.

[ses110]

I always thought SciFi's influence was a major problem. I always got the feeling that Gekko was in charge of the show and Showtime pretty much stayed out. That's not to say the current TPTB did not cause their share of problems. Even after RDA left SG-1 still had the Sam Daniel and Teal'c characters. I just did not see the need to go the drastic change route. SG-1 was not built on having big SciFi stars from another show being part of the cast. Leaving Sam in charge of SG-1 and bringing in a familar face from the show might have been better. To me, Season 9 and 10 just did not seem like SG-1 at all.

[Skydiver]

Anyway, as I said, a lot of missed opportunities. Same goes for Atlantis basically after season 1: Lots of Deus Ex Machina solutions, and actions that make you question what the writers were on when they wrote it.

which is why, as part of the reasons, i'm not all that attached to atlantis. It's not a bad show, yet the magic, the spark that made sg1 so special, just isn't there. It's just a scifi show that follows the templates and forumulas and cranks out safe, comfortable and predictible stuff

[Gregorius]

I always thought SciFi's influence was a major problem. I always got the feeling that Gekko was in charge of the show and Showtime pretty much stayed out.

It probably is. I guess it's comparable to the STS (Space Shuttle) design and the Challenger disaster. The influence of the Air Force, politicians and ill-informed managers caused a lot of problems.

Basically it's people who don't have any idea what they're talking about having power to command people who do know what they're talking about to do as they want them to do.

I just did not see the need to go the drastic change route. SG-1 was not built on having big SciFi stars from another show being part of the cast.

There was no need to do that either. SG-1 could've easily handled the introduction of Mitchell and Vala had they done it properly, as in writing them properly and not using them as Mary Sue and shipping material.

"The appointed to his position Cam" storyline that's been brought up here so often is one example of how they should've handled it. Same goes for the "Vala as untrustworthy thief" story, had they introduced her like that with her constantly screwing SG-1 over she would've been accepted.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that if they did those two arcs instead of the arcs they actually used they'd have had gold in their hands and this thread probably wouldn't even exist. A rogue-ish main character and a political appointment as main character, that would've created tension and stories that would've done justice to the actors and would've written themselves.

which is why, as part of the reasons, i'm not all that attached to atlantis. It's not a bad show, yet the magic, the spark that made sg1 so special, just isn't there. It's just a scifi show that follows the templates and forumulas and cranks out safe, comfortable and predictible stuff

Sounds like Star Trek: Voyager.

Anyway, the thing with Atlantis is that instead of having the team grow and stand on their own (Sheppard being stuck not going on away missions due him being the CO would be a great departure from SG-1, especially if he's at odd with Weir all the time) we got SG-1 light which slowly turned into The Sheppard and McKay Show: 1h of "comedy" with a deus-ex-machina solution by McKay or Sheppard to save the day.

Add to that all the major plot holes throughout each season and the bipolar disorder all the characters seem to have, and you get a good picture of why Atlantis fails to get the spark that the original SG-1 had.

[suse]

I always thought SciFi's influence was a major problem. I always got the feeling that Gekko was in charge of the show and Showtime pretty much stayed out. That's not to say the current TPTB did not cause their share of problems. Even after RDA left SG-1 still had the Sam Daniel and Teal'c characters. I just did not see the need to go the drastic change route. SG-1 was not built on having big SciFi stars from another show being part of the cast. Leaving Sam in charge of SG-1 and bringing in a familar face from the show might have been better. To me, Season 9 and 10 just did not seem like SG-1 at all.

One star from another show was bad enough. Two stars (lead no less, from the same show)? No. Add in writing one as the team lead when we already had one (AT being gone for 5 eps holds no water as an excuse, they knew she was coming back) and the other written as, as, as inappropriate for the type of show SG-1 used to be (PU and S9 Vala GAHHHHH! though s9 was much worse)... When did *overt* sexual harassment become okay? When did hostage-taking, thievery and slavery become "sexy" and "fun"?

Hard to believe I was actually looking forward to S9 at one time, that I ever thought SG-1 might be better without RDA and the network's need to have him there so much. ((RDA)) ((Michael Greenberg)) Gekko was the most glaring behind-the-scenes empty slot. I've never settled on exactly how much Brad Wright The Science Guy focusing on Atlantis weakened SG-1. I just know it did.

suse

[Jackie]

I wonder if the bi-polar or OoC acting of the characters is a result of having different directors all the time or the writing. I know tptb tend to cycle the responsibility about.

On the blog of doom, JM will talk about how...he wrote this ep and such and such directed that ep.

I get the impression there are way to many chiefs behind the scene, none of the them have a shared vision of just how the show should be, and the shipping is off the charts. (3 way coming for SGA)

[ses110]

I always though that TPTB should have had Mitcheel as either being a by the book solider who caused tension for SG-1 or Mitchell working for the NID. I think you needed to go complete opposite of Jack with Mitchell. It's almost like Mash with Blake and Potter. Mash really handled characters changes to perfection. They never missed a beat and made sure the characters fit the show and not the other way around. I just got the sense with Mitchell and Vala that they overpowered the show and brought the Daniel character with them.

[ses110]

Good point Jackie. Do we know if Gekko had multiple directors and writers as well? I think the big difference was Gekko could have had Lucas or Spielberg and Gekko would have made sure the Show followed their lead.

[ses110]

TPTB saw RDA was cutting back on his time. It was not something out of the blue. It was pretty much a big neon sign. How about instead of killing of Janet you could have had Janet on SG-1 with Sam Daniel and Teal'c? You have Reynolds fill in until AT gets back in Season 9. I would have been happy with AU Janet and you bring Cassie in for some episodes and you have the Janet and Cassie dynamic.I think having Janet gives you someone who was very popular with the fanbase. I still think TPTB was shocked at getting a season 9. JM always said no RDA no new seasons. TPTB still should have planned for a season 9 and beyond. Having a season 9 was such a waste when we could have had a couple more movies by now. RDA wanted to cut back on the weekly appearances and was looking forward to SG-1 movies.

[suse]

I wonder if the bi-polar or OoC acting of the characters is a result of having different directors all the time or the writing. I know tptb tend to cycle the responsibility about.

On the blog of doom, JM will talk about how...he wrote this ep and such and such directed that ep.

I get the impression there are way to many chiefs behind the scene, none of the them have a shared vision of just how the show should be, and the shipping is off the charts. (3 way coming for SGA)

Oh no. Different writers and directors is totally normal. What isn't is using the same writers (with only a small addition) to do double the episodes. Same with directing. They were overworked. By choice, but still overworked.

In his last interview Brad said he likes the additional time to polish scripts, a chance he was not afforded when both shows were on. And of course last year he and Coop were doing the Sg-1 movies.

Well, if time is needed to polish scripts but there is no time, what happens? Quality suffers. It's details - some larger than others - that make or break a show. Guess we know what happened in Stargate's case.

suse

[suse]

TPTB saw RDA was cutting back on his time. It was not something out of the blue. It was pretty much a big neon sign. How about instead of killing of Janet you could have had Janet on SG-1 with Sam Daniel and Teal'c? You have Reynolds fill in until AT gets back in Season 9. I would have been happy with AU Janet and you bring Cassie in for some episodes and you have the Janet and Cassie dynamic.I think having Janet gives you someone who was very popular with the fanbase. I still think TPTB was shocked at getting a season 9. JM always said no RDA no new seasons. TPTB still should have planned for a season 9 and beyond. Having a season 9 was such a waste when we could have had a couple more movies by now. RDA wanted to cut back on the weekly appearances and was looking forward to SG-1 movies.

Sci-Fi wanted both shows. Look how high the ratings were! Too bad the SG-1 many wanted was destroyed in the quest to add to the fan base the might/might not leave with RDA.

suse