S10: nostalgia, new viewers & the progression of SG1

[amconway]

I think part of the reason why some people dislike him so much is because of a) he left Vala chained up for, what, three days? b) he killed hundreds and/or thousands of people c) he hit his wife

I had to laugh about this because I actually was more pissed off that the left Vala chained up for three days than the he led the Ori army across 2 galaxies. Oh, my... As for the hitting thing, I wanted to hit Vala so many times, I suppose that didn't affect me as much. And anyone but Daniel would have put her through a wall.

I took the chained thing as showing his fear and utter obiedience to the Ori, even when his instincts tell him that it's wrong. At that point we know that if they have that kind of control over Tomin, there are none of their followers who can be swayed.

Some people only started warming to her character as S10 progressed, so I'd have been interested in seeing what the overall feeling would have been had she been in S11 and evolved even further (and interacted more with the rest of the team).

Yep. This was me. I still can't believe that they cancelled it. At the same time, if it had gone another season, the opportunity to do the movies might not have happened, or tha actors might have wanted to do something else. It's hard to guess how that would have worked out. Still disappointed, though.

[Stef]

I had to laugh about this because I actually was more pissed off that the left Vala chained up for three days than the he led the Ori army across 2 galaxies. Oh, my... As for the hitting thing, I wanted to hit Vala so many times, I suppose that didn't affect me as much. And anyone but Daniel would have put her through a wall.

LOL. Yeah, funny how we get more upset by him hurting his wife than him murdering hundreds of people Personally, I don't think I was ever annoyed with his character. More than anything, I was shocked at a few of his actions - like when he hit Vala in LITS - which I think we were supposed to be (as shocked as Vala). In the back of my mind I always kind of felt sorry for him because he wasn't an evil person - he didn't enjoy what he was doing - and you see later in LITS that there is a line even his faith can't push him to cross. I think I've always just seen him as a tragic character - someone who is inherently good but moved into doing evil deeds. Not saying that's a good thing, but it is what it is.

-Stef

[amconway]

LOL. Yeah, funny how we get more upset by him hurting his wife than him murdering hundreds of people Personally, I don't think I was ever annoyed with his character. More than anything, I was shocked at a few of his actions - like when he hit Vala in LITS - which I think we were supposed to be (as shocked as Vala). In the back of my mind I always kind of felt sorry for him because he wasn't an evil person - he didn't enjoy what he was doing - and you see later in LITS that there is a line even his faith can't push him to cross. I think I've always just seen him as a tragic character - someone who is inherently good but moved into doing evil deeds. Not saying that's a good thing, but it is what it is.

I agree. He was really the personal face of the corruption of faith (by that I mean his faith was corrupted, not that faith corrupts).

[madaboutdanny]

I don't like Tomin, and not just because he hit Vala. I really liked him in Crusade but after he killed 2 Vala's friends in front of her and threated to kill her too...well I hated him. And BTW you find funny a man that beat a woman?
And I don't like that line in LITS, when she says that she loves him, simply because I don't think that a woman like Vala can love a man like Tomin, in a romantic way. Pity, simpathy, certainly not love, that is my problem with Tomin, not his road to redemption.

[GateGipsy]

who said that they find Tomin funny? I've looked but I can't see that reference to his character anywhere.

I didn't like Tomin, but that is part of what makes his character so good in terms of dramatic quality. He was a deeply complex character, a person who would have been so very different if he hadn't been warped by a lifetime of adherence to the Ori.

Yeah, funny how we get more upset by him hurting his wife than him murdering hundreds of people

It is understandable - we didn't see all those people, but we did see him hurt Vala.

[Stef]

It is understandable - we didn't see all those people, but we did see him hurt Vala.

Yeah, that was my point. Sorry if I offended anyone I never meant to imply any of Tomin's actions were funny, just that it's odd how people get angrier at him for hurting one or two people rather than killing hundreds. But you're right, it's most likely due to the fact that we have a personal connection with Vala (as well as the two people he killed in 'Crusade'). We're also witnesses to his violence in those instances...whereas we're normally just told about the people he's killed. Nameless faces have less of an impact than the people we know and actions we see.

-Stef

[madaboutdanny]

Yeah, that was my point. Sorry if I offended anyone I never meant to imply any of Tomin's actions were funny, just that it's odd how people get angrier at him for hurting one or two people rather than killing hundreds. But you're right, it's most likely due to the fact that we have a personal connection with Vala (as well as the two people he killed in 'Crusade'). We're also witnesses to his violence in those instances...whereas we're normally just told about the people he's killed. Nameless faces have less of an impact than the people we know.

-Stef

No need to be sorry, but I dislike Tomin so much that sometimes I overeacted and that scene in LITS pissed me off very very much!

[KatG]

To me Tomin was one of the most interesting characters in S10. It was interesting seeing his development, from a "blind faith" type of follower, to one who began to question his faith, to one who finally took a stand against what he realized was wrong.

The scene with Teal'c, when he finally realized the enormity of the things he had done, and Teal'c shared his background was really, really powerful.

[Iawen]

To me Tomin was one of the most interesting characters in S10. It was interesting seeing his development, from a "blind faith" type of follower, to one who began to question his faith, to one who finally took a stand against what he realized was wrong.

The scene with Teal'c, when he finally realized the enormity of the things he had done, and Teal'c shared his background was really, really powerful.

I'd agree with that. I liked Tomin--the saddest part about his character was that he really truly thought he was doing what was right. He was a very interesting character and they wrote him very well. It bothers me that he left Vala out there for three days, but that was a tough position to be in and at least he did finally go out there and get her.

[Stef]

I'd agree with that. I liked Tomin--the saddest part about his character was that he really truly thought he was doing what was right. He was a very interesting character and they wrote him very well. It bothers me that he left Vala out there for three days, but that was a tough position to be in and at least he did finally go out there and get her.

Very true, but I think RCC did a nice job of allowing Tomin's inaction to be seen in a somewhat sympathetic light (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with me ). I specifically like the shot of Vala chained at night and then the pan to the window of Tomin's house where we see him just sitting on the floor. I think that was a great moment - one that established that Tomin wasn't going on with his life as per usual, that he was genuinly conflicted and constantly debating with himself what to do.

It was a smart move to show Tomin at the beginning of the episode being this very meak social outcast of a character. It made his inability to rush to action believable, and his eventual decision to buck authority more powerful. It's interesting to watch 'Crusade' Tomin and then AOT Tomin. They seem so different (in both look and attitude). That character REALLY changed over the course of the two seasons.

-Stef

[Iawen]

I agree with you, Stef. I liked the progression of his character. There are things he does that frustrate me, like his willingness to kill once he finally becomes a soldier, but at least he questions and does so out of his knowledge. I think Tomin was supposed to be the set up to the fact that not everyone who followed Origin was a bad person. They needed someone like that on the show because all we got aside from him were the Ori, Adria, the Doci, and the Priors.

[GermanAstra]

I don't understand why some fans didn't like the Ori arc.

I'll try to explain why I personally did not like it. It has to do with my whole disliking of all things that are "magic". For the same reason I don't like Harry Potter, either.

I was never a science fiction fan to begin with, actually. "Stargate" felt different to me, because they had ordinary, nowadays weapons, and not futuristic ones. But the whole Ori arc was about magical power, without any scientific explanations. You just had to believe it. And I just can't do that. I only believe in things I can see and touch and explain.

So I felt very uncomfortable when I had to see, for example, the team going into a cave and behind them "magically" a wall appears, not letting them out anymore. If it was an ordinary force field that trapped them, Sam always could fiddle with the controling console, pulling out cables, changing crystals, whatever. But how are you supposed to fight magic? There is nothing you can do about it when you don't have magic powers yourself, and it makes me feeling powerless.

So, in a nutshell, I did not like to see the team powerless. As a resolution they had to go and find another "magically", even more powerful weapon. So every episode only was about searching for this one weapon, which became boring after a while. It would have been nice to see more exploration of the galaxy and meeting people from all kind of races and nations, just for the fun of getting to know them and making friends. Not only 'walk into a village, ask for any Ancient things, walk out (or rather get beamed out) with said Ancient things'.

Therefore, the episodes I enjoyed most were standalone stories that had nothing to do with the Ori, like the one with the class meeting or when they came out in the museum, or when Cam was a supposed murderer (sorry, I'm terrible with episode names). Even if some of them might have been silly at least it was a different story for one evening, and they felt more believable to me.

[amconway]

I was never a science fiction fan to begin with, actually. "Stargate" felt different to me, because they had ordinary, nowadays weapons, and not futuristic ones. But the whole Ori arc was about magical power, without any scientific explanations. You just had to believe it. And I just can't do that. I only believe in things I can see and touch and explain.

Did you feel the same way about the Ancients? I'm guessing that you didn't like 'Maternal Instinct' or the episodes when Daniel is ascended either... What about ones that are kind of in between like 'Forever in a Day' and 'Absolute Power'?

[madaboutdanny]

So I felt very uncomfortable when I had to see, for example, the team going into a cave and behind them "magically" a wall appears, not letting them out anymore. If it was an ordinary force field that trapped them, Sam always could fiddle with the controling console, pulling out cables, changing crystals, whatever. But how are you supposed to fight magic? There is nothing you can do about it when you don't have magic powers yourself, and it makes me feeling powerless.

I disagree, that was magic for the people that didn't know the reality. Sg1 found a way to desable the Prior's power with the antiprior device and Daniel said that all their power wasn't magic but better scientific and technological knowledge. And Sam was able to fly a Ori ship without the Prior. We know, almost from the beginning, that all their magic isn't magic at all.

[Khentkawes]

I'll try to explain why I personally did not like it. It has to do with my whole disliking of all things that are "magic". For the same reason I don't like Harry Potter, either.

I was never a science fiction fan to begin with, actually. "Stargate" felt different to me, because they had ordinary, nowadays weapons, and not futuristic ones. But the whole Ori arc was about magical power, without any scientific explanations. You just had to believe it. And I just can't do that. I only believe in things I can see and touch and explain.

So I felt very uncomfortable when I had to see, for example, the team going into a cave and behind them "magically" a wall appears, not letting them out anymore. If it was an ordinary force field that trapped them, Sam always could fiddle with the controling console, pulling out cables, changing crystals, whatever. But how are you supposed to fight magic? There is nothing you can do about it when you don't have magic powers yourself, and it makes me feeling powerless.

Actually, I get that. It doesn't bother me personally, because I feel like some of the advanced technology they use is pretty magical (because it's so advanced that we could never really understand it anyway... and sometimes it seems like SG-1's ability to miraculously understand this new advanced technology that they've never seen before is pretty magical and definitely stretches my suspense of disbelief.. and I'm getting off-topic here), but I can definitely understand where you're coming from.

So while it doesn't personally bother me, I totally understand why you might not like the "magical" quality of it. And I have heard other fans who disliked the way the Ori seemed unstoppable in the beginning and how SG-1 seemed so helpless. I can understand that criticism too, even though I felt like it added a nice sense of peril.

And I do agree that one of the cool things about the early seasons of SG-1 was how modern it was, in the sense of modern weapons and no advanced technology. That was a very cool element of SG-1 and I was sad to see it go, but for me, that really started to disappear in season 6 when they introduced the Prometheus.

So what I'm saying here is... I'm really glad you gave me a logical reason why you disliked the Ori storyline. I respect that, and it does make sense to me, even if I don't completely agree with it.