Daniel Jackson/Vala Mal Doran Ship/Discussion/Appreciation Thread

[graculus]

Maybe if we twitter on long enough, Daniel will take his shirt off again...

Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

Or Vala will take it off for him.

Paybacks are hell!

[graculus]

Oooh, Daniel's getting his payback right now...

[Margaret]

Even if the Refugee story turns out to be untrue, I don't think we can rule out that Vala has a rational reason for wanting the ship (or rather the naquada she intended to trade it for). Maybe it was even for a weapon to fight the goa'uld?

I agree. Further, after reading Hacheter's post,
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....02&postcount=1
I think it would be possible to explain most of Vala's behavior as "mission-related."

I love the psychological and moral problem this creates for Daniel.

I like it because it raises interesting questions. 'What is the value of kindness in a cruel world?'

'Does it make sense to be decent to someone who will stab you in the back first chance she gets?'

I'd love to find out that Vala can match Daniel IQ point for IQ point, too.

I'd be fine with that.

[graculus]

Hacheter's post,
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....02&postcount=1
I think it would be possible to explain most of Vala's behavior as "mission-related."

That was an interesting post, and Hacheter is right that Vala resorted to just about every tactic in the Rumsfield's Secret Memo. I don't hold it against her any more than I would hold it against a male mercenary character, though.

I like it because it raises interesting questions. 'What is the value of kindness in a cruel world?'

A question I always like to ponder, but I'm eternally depressed by the results of such pondering. ::sigh::

'Does it make sense to be decent to someone who will stab you in the back first chance she gets?'

No, but I'm sure Daniel will try to be decent anyway. We may have to reconsider who is rational here. And whether rationality is moral.

I think I like being 'sex-obsessed' better.

Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

Hey, maybe Vala's people really are pirates, scooped up from the high seas and transplanted by the Goa'uld?

Piracy usually crops up where there is a power vacuum. In a Stargate setting, you might expect to see it where the Goa'uld have abandoned a territory, or where the Goa'uld have been thrown out, but the local government is not strong enough to enforce order.

If the Goa'uld have abandoned the territory, it may be because the naquada mines have run out. Hence Vala's need to trade for the stuff.

If the Goa'uld were driven out, then it is at least possible that there is some truth to Vala's story.

If Vala is a *former* host, then she probably isn't working with Goa'uld, she'd be very unpopular with them. Sort of a traitor.

It's possible that Vala is *still* a goa'uld, but she'd have to be a very unusual one like the one in Fallout.

If Vala's people are pirates, like a tribe of pirates, then they are probably a very isolated group that regards the rest of humanity as . . . basically milch cows to be exploited for whatever profit they might yield. In this case, Vala's ethics would be based on personal or tribal loyalty rather than on universal principles. However, that would not explain why she trasported everyone to the Al-Kesh instead of shoving them out the airlock.

[Margaret]

If the Goa'uld were driven out, then it is at least possible that there is some truth to Vala's story.

My understanding is that the Tok'ra strategy is not to overthrow the Goa'uld piecemeal, one at a time, but to infiltrate and wait for the time when it is possible to bring them all down at once.

If this is so, then it is unlikely that a Tok'ra operative instigated a rebellion.

[graculus]

Piracy usually crops up where there is a power vacuum.

Or rival states pay for privateers to harass enemy ships...

If the Goa'uld have abandoned the territory, it may be because the naquada mines have run out. Hence Vala's need to trade for the stuff.

If the Goa'uld were driven out, then it is at least possible that there is some truth to Vala's story.

If Vala is a *former* host, then she probably isn't working with Goa'uld, she'd be very unpopular with them. Sort of a traitor.

It's possible that Vala is *still* a goa'uld, but she'd have to be a very unusual one like the one in Fallout.

I'm getting more and more interested in what Vala's history as a Goa'uld mean to her. Also, her memories and skills could be important to the SGC. It seems to me Daniel needed to leave the door open to winning Vala over in the future. If that was the case, the final zat-blast was self-indulgent and counter-productive to Earth's interests. Daniel should be making as nice to her as he can without getting kicked in the head.

If Vala's people are pirates, like a tribe of pirates, then they are probably a very isolated group that regards the rest of humanity as . . . basically milch cows to be exploited for whatever profit they might yield. In this case, Vala's ethics would be based on personal or tribal loyalty rather than on universal principles.

But pirates are still people, so there's always hope that there is some humanitarian sentiment going on. Or at least a squeamishness about doing truly horrible things.

However, that would not explain why she trasported everyone to the Al-Kesh instead of shoving them out the airlock.

I think there's good in her that Daniel will see and/or possibly draw out.

Or he could be attracted to the lusty and carefree pirate lifestyle. Military life can be rather conformist and confining.

[graculus]

then it is unlikely that a Tok'ra operative instigated a rebellion.

I was going to say good point, but then I realized that the Tok'ra would not necessarily have to reveal him/herself to foment rebellion. He/she could just gripe at the local tavern until the native leaders took up the cause.

Since Vala had a vested interest in messing with Daniel's head, I agree that we can't assume anything from what she told Daniel. The fact she can use goa'uld technology suggests she's at least telling the truth about being a former goa'uld, though. I really hope she isn't a current one.


Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

That was an interesting post, and Hacheter is right that Vala resorted to just about every tactic in the Rumsfield's Secret Memo. I don't hold it against her any more than I would hold it against a male mercenary character, though.

I would certainly hold it against the male mercenary character, and I'd be happy to hold it against Vala, too.

The difference it makes to me is that it makes it possible to see apparently wild, random and nutty behavior as purposeful, calculated and ruthless.

But if you at least know that a person's behavior is goal-driven, then you have some clue about what they're going to do and how to deal with them.

[Margaret]

I was going to say good point, but then I realized that the Tok'ra would not necessarily have to reveal him/herself to foment rebellion. He/she could just gripe at the local tavern until the native leaders took up the cause.

Of course he could, but why would he want to? That is not the Tok'ra agenda.

[graculus]

I would certainly hold it against the male mercenary character, and I'd be happy to hold it against Vala, too.

For me, it would depend on the context and the history. It's always easy to say someone else is doing something wrong. But that other person is the one who had to work with limited options. In my book, when a starving person steals food, then society erred by not providing alternative access to food. If Vala's people have been cornered on some moon with no supplies and nothing to trade, then they have to get everything by stealing. If you think about it, that's preferable to them deciding that they are a superior race and have the right to commit genocide in order to get lesser beings out of the way.

I also think it's easier to understand anti-social behavior if a person's problems are being caused by the bad behavior of other people. As you observed, why should a person be moral when everyone else around them has no compunction about causing pain. If Vala is from a desperate refugee society, she was probably fending off predators right and left. Under those circumstances, it's difficult to meet new situations from a position of trust.

Later,
Graculus

[graculus]

why would he want to? That is not the Tok'ra agenda.

The Tok'ra take advantage of opportunities, such as testing the symbiote poison to wipe out the system lords. If it wasn't going to expose the Tok'ra or interfere with their plans, they might think "why not". Or it could be a rogue Tok'ra of some sort.

Later,
Graculus

[courser]

I think it's likely that there is a kernel of truth to the story Vala told. Since she can use goa'uld technology, then it's probably true that she was possessed by a goa'uld at some point. In which case it's plausible that she was horribly used and abused, both by the goa'uld itself and probably the people who rose up against her. Her actions were based on her own life experience, though it didn't really matter what she did - Daniel was never going to let her take the ship.

I agree that it's likely that she's some form of space pirate, either out of need or necessity and obviously her claim that she was taking the ship to 'help her people' wasn't entirely true. Or at least not directly true. It's always possible that while that's the ultimate goal there were a number of steps that she didn't share with Daniel. I think there's a lot more to the story than we're aware of. After all, she really has no reason to trust Daniel, especially if her life experiences have taught her that being honest causes her nothing but grief.

I really don't know if I would classify her as truly 'ruthless'. She didn't shove the crew out the airlock or harm them in any way and left them with a ship that was at least repairable. She said that she sabotaged it herself at one point and it would have been easy to ensure that they never went anywhere ever. And despite smacking Daniel around a bit, she also didn't resort to anything truly nasty in trying to get information from him. Basically, she really didn't do anything that, say, Jack hasn't done (though granted, he never used sex as a manipulative device as far as we know) in order to get what she wanted/needed. I know that argument had people up in arms before, but I think it's a valid argument. Not pretty, but black ops rarely is.

I think what we might see when Daniel and Vala meet up again is that she really was on a humanitarian mission of sorts. She simply didn't fill him in on all the details. Her failure to get a ship has caused her serious grief and Daniel feels a bit guilty for his part in that. As a result, he convinces the rest of the team to aid her in achieving a goal, whatever that might be. But her inability to tell the truth and be honest will complicate matters. While her goals may be admirable, her methods for achieving them are questionable.

I like this scenario because it redeems her somewhat, yet still allows her character to be intriguing and mysterious. You never know if she's telling the truth, and even if she is, if it's the whole truth. I think you can count on Vala to *never* tell the whole truth. I think a storyline like this would be fresh and interesting to watch. It would also give us some insights into BB's character - a good way for him to 'show his colors' and bring us up to speed on his philosophies.

Cripes, did I need to put that in spoiler space? Dunno and it's too late to change it. I'm going to be late for work... no big thing, I feel yucky anyway.

Peace out
Courser

[graculus]

But her inability to tell the truth and be honest will complicate matters.

What is this thing called truth? I wander in the world and have yet to find it...

It would also give us some insights into BB's character - a good way for him to 'show his colors' and bring us up to speed on his philosophies.

That's a great point!

Cripes, did I need to put that in spoiler space?

This thread is in the Season 8 folder, and the whole thing is a spoiler for those who haven't seen Prometheus Unbound, so I think it's okay. No one has asked me to change it. But I had to bench my sigs this morning, though.