Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Akamaimom]

Sadly, I don't think there is.

We should have a Neck Nuzzle celebration at Shipsgiving to make up for it. Icons, banners, art, and fics celebrating the neck nuzzle.

For those that are unaware, Shipsgiving is our next big Shipping holiday. It takes place around about the American Thanksgiving time.

AU Sams

I tend to think AU TBFTGOG Sam is very like our own Sam except that she never joined the military, and that's why she's still very "Sam". I tend to think for all the differences, the reality was still close enough on their personalities that Sam comes across as Sam.

POV Sam, on the other hand, I think was quite different under all the surface similarity. She's much more defensive about her choices, and while I think some of it came from the fact that she felt she had failed in her universe, I think some of that defensiveness was ingrained and had to do with the choices she'd made, the path not taken from a career perspective. I don't mind AU POV Sam. I put a lot of the clash she had with our Sam, and her neediness toward our Jack down to her grief.

I think there are more stories with the latter because she's still alive and the Asgard are helping their Earth rebuild at the end of the episode whereas in the TBFTGOG universe, everyone is dead.

I didn't have a problem with the watery-ness of that Sam. She had, after all, just lost the love of her life suddenly and cruelly and then she finds herself in another universe where he-but-not-him is still alive? I'd probably be doing the same thing. I actually thought she held herself together quite well, over all, given the circumstances.

About "watery" AU POV Samantha. (Great term, Midwife--love that!). I know that she's just lost her Jack and that she's dealing with issues of inadequacy and all--she just annoys me. ::shrug:: I'm not certain that she's supposed to be as likable as "our" Sam. AT played her very differently.

It's interesting to consider a few things. First of all, her willingness to argue with Jack is definitely indicative of the facts that she hasn't had a military aspect to her life, that she's MUCH more familiar with Jack than our Sam, and that she's more in tune with her feelings and emotions that Sam. She's also playing some cards there that are interesting. She's playing the "female" card--something that Sam would NEVER do at this stage in her life. And she's in defensive mode, while our Sam is normally on the offense, or asking apologies. I think that in a odd sense, Samantha is more self-aware and more confident than Sam. Emotionally, she's more in touch.

But she's also needier than Sam. (Thanks, Rachel!) But then, this aspect of her character is also indicative of the fact that she knows what she needs and is able to go for it. Sam wouldn't do those things (demand comfort of Jack, criticizing Sam's hair, arguing with Sam) without a deeper familiarity of the people she's asking things from. Sam's a little more circumspect and inward-searching, as indicated by her making a joke of Jack's offer of comfort ("Do you have a couple of hours?) She's deflecting the issue instead of confronting it.

Also, Samantha just kind of uses Jack at the end--the kiss is an experiment for her. What would she have done had he reciprocated and the kiss been awesome? Would she have asked him to stay, thus giving up his reality? I really don't see the point of the kiss, other than her grasping at straws. I think it was kind of manipulative in purpose, even though it didn't work out the way she wanted it to.

I guess what I'm saying is that she bugs me, but she's also an interesting look into what Sam might have been, had those choices not been made. (And I know that's the point of the episode, so work with me--I'm not too bright.) And so even though it makes the angst factor high, I'm appreciative that Sam is who she is.

(Samantha kind of reminds me of Lara in 100 Days, by the way. Why is that? They're both widows, in touch with what they want, and they both try to manipulate Jack? I don't know. . .)

But loves and loves and they're living happily ever after.

[Rachel500]

<snip>.

Also, Samantha just kind of uses Jack at the end--the kiss is an experiment for her. What would she have done had he reciprocated and the kiss been awesome? Would she have asked him to stay, thus giving up his reality? I really don't see the point of the kiss, other than her grasping at straws. I think it was kind of manipulative in purpose, even though it didn't work out the way she wanted it to.

I guess what I'm saying is that she bugs me, but she's also an interesting look into what Sam might have been, had those choices not been made. (And I know that's the point of the episode, so work with me--I'm not too bright.) And so even though it makes the angst factor high, I'm appreciative that Sam is who she is.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. I think AT did play Samantha very differently in POV than she did Dr Carter in TBFTGOG. And I do think script-wise/story-wise the difference is meant to be jarring; that we're meant to sympathise with *our* Sam in comparison to AU Samantha (just as we're meant to sympathise with Sam over Laira).

And I would agree that I think Samantha is much more comfortable and has more confidence in herself as woman and with Jack than our Sam is at this point. Unsurprisingly because our Sam is used to repressing "the woman" side of herself in favour of "the soldier." But I agree that I think Samantha is much more willing to use the fact that she is a woman and her knowledge of Jack as a way of getting what she wants in a way that I don't think our Sam would ever do with our Jack even when they're happily together and Sam has more confidence in herself as a woman.

And yes the kiss. It is the one kiss which I've come to just not like because essentially it is our Jack kissing the wrong Sam. From a character perspective, I do think she saw it as a way of getting the goodbye she didn't get with her own Jack, that in a way she hoped to pretend for a moment that it was the man she loved so she could have that in the days ahead so I don't think she ever thought it would go anywhere. But in the end she doesn't even get what she wants because although Jack acquiesces easily enough to the kiss (which I tend to think is because he wants to kiss *our* Sam and this lets him kiss *a* Sam), the intimacy of it and the lack of connection in that means it drives home that he isn't Jack. Just as I think it drives it home for Jack too that he's kissing the wrong Sam.

[Cagranosalis]

I would like to state for the record that i am not a gay basher. My first job I had a manager who was homosexual and I didn't say anything cause that was his choice. I was just stating an opinion about the authors story. I didn't mean for it to cause a big out roar and for that I am sorry.

*trips over shovel that's been left lying around*

You best put that to use.

Beyond the fact that I personally find it morally offensive, the author has taken an established character that was demonstrably hetrosexual on the show (she had a boyfriend in Rite of Passage) and made her gay out of pure personal indulgence. Additionally, there is no character or story reason for it. So I do have a problem with that.

Otherwise, it was a nice little story.

Well...

Half spoilered for be half off topic but kind of on topic too:

Spoiler:

Willow from Buffy The Vampire Slayer? Take one fiercely heterosexual character, with established patterns of liking/dating boys and make her gay for the last couple of seasons. And, actually, it suited her character to be gay, I thought. Although I will concede it's a bad "only in the soaps" example becuase, to me, it didn't make much sense that she became gay after being soo straight before that, and it was such a sudden switch. A little more thought into her character direction from ealier on would have laid more of a foundation and made it more believable.
Much worse though, is when you have a clearly established gay character who suddenly turns heterosexual to suit the whim of plot devices... or, in one case I saw (UK tv show from many moons ago) a lesbian couple, one of whom goes off to have sex with this guy so her and her girlfriend could have a baby... then she leaves girlfriend for sperm donor when she falls in love with him... uh, does not compute.

Anyway, from a character perspective, I take (and agree) with your point about character suddenly having a major personality change just for the sake of it suiting a plot. And, maybe this is why I'm a Sam/Jack shipper and not a Sam/Jan or Jack/Dan slasher, or a Sam/Dan shipper (and deliberately no mention of Teal'c since I'm not opening that can of worms again...oh no! .
End of the day, Sam and Jack have established, in canon feelings for each other. Jack is clearly, in canon, heterosexual, as is Sam, Daniel and Teal'c. Past history and ongoing interactions with members of the opposite sex during the run of the series reinforce that. And, while I don't object to homosexual relationships in fanfic (and some of it is amazingly well written) between main cast members, it constitutes a major out of characterness to me. Minor characters? Well, not so much since we never really know enough about them to call it (Artie's fic being a perfectly demonstrated case in point).

Yes, one might think it's an author's indulgence to make a character gay to suit the story, but, heck, I made Sam pregnant ( and didn't gag - ugh I hate baby fic) in one of mine, I had them married with a kid in another, just got married in another...and, gosh, you should see what a bunch of filthy soansos I turned them all into in one fic that shall likely never ever leave my hard drive... none of which is established in canon so they are all indulgences. That's really the whole point of fic; write what you know and write what you want to show.


Apart from that...


*hands out peace pipes full of broccoli and sits down for some peace luvvin hippy sit in.. *

Spoiler:

*puffs broccoli smoke around the thread*



Ahem... back on topic...

I agree with a lot of what you say here. I think AT did play Samantha very differently in POV than she did Dr Carter in TBFTGOG. And I do think script-wise/story-wise the difference is meant to be jarring; that we're meant to sympathise with *our* Sam in comparison to AU Samantha (just as we're meant to sympathise with Sam over Laira).

I agree but do you really think we're supposed to sympathise with our Sam over AU Samantha? I never looked at it that way before.
Picking up on Aka's comment about Laira being manipulative, see that's not how I see Laira and certainly not how I see AU Samantha. I just see her (AU Sam) as a woman who has grown up with very different influences in her life, who has taken different paths and who has suffered a hidious loss, the likes of which I can't begin to comprehend. I think that she is different from Our Sam but I love that she is.

Actually, there's a neat comparison between Au Samantha and our Sam in POV, and our Sam in the AU world in Contiinuum. I think their reactions highlight the differences in them quite nicely, but also adequately demonstrate that people don't always act in character at times of great stress.

And yes the kiss. It is the one kiss which I've come to just not like because essentially it is our Jack kissing the wrong Sam. From a character perspective, I do think she saw it as a way of getting the goodbye she didn't get with her own Jack, that in a way she hoped to pretend for a moment that it was the man she loved so she could have that in the days ahead so I don't think she ever thought it would go anywhere. But in the end she doesn't even get what she wants because although Jack acquiesces easily enough to the kiss (which I tend to think is because he wants to kiss *our* Sam and this lets him kiss *a* Sam), the intimacy of it and the lack of connection in that means it drives home that he isn't Jack. Just as I think it drives it home for Jack too that he's kissing the wrong Sam.

Also not my favourite of kisses. To me, she's essentially using our Jack to say goodbye to her Jack. I really do think, up to that point, she does have difficulty differentiating between the two. The... lack of passion/spark/whatever in the kiss was what seals it for her. But I also think for Jack it almost has an opposite effect. He, while obviously a bit surprised to be kissing her, certainly isn't a completely passive partner in it all. True he kind of pulls back and stops it going further but I always thought that was for his own protection (because he really quite likes kissing Sam) than anything.
Either way, this is a pivotal moment for Jack. He's been faced with the reality that there could be a workable relationship between a Jack and a Sam (who for all that's different, aren't really *that* different from him and Sam) and he's allowed her (and himself) a little indulgence of exploring that.

I have more to add but after supper; haggis doesn't cook itself y'know.

[Pol]

RE: AU Sam and Jack's kiss thereof (or would that be "whomof"?)

I think Jack had already shown in the ep (by being willing to listen if Sam (our Sam) wanted to talk about the "twin thing") that he was deeply effected by the AU, and the idea that somewhere, he and Sam had a relationship.

So, when faced with someone who both was and was not *his* Sam, and who was so obviously in pain, he needed to offer comfort.

Imagine how he must hurt seeing any version of Sam Carter in pain.

Hmmm....did I miss a Campfire opportunity?

[hlndncr]

I had a boyfriend when I was a freshman in college, and at forty I've been partnered with a woman for fifteen years. Having had a boyfriend in college does not make one proven heterosexual. For that matter, I didn't say she was gay. Perhaps she's bi? Like thousands and thousands of women in fandom.

OT:

Spoiler:

My point is evidence. The evidence supports one point of view. The rest is speculation and placing your own personal biases onto the character. We all do it to a certain extent, but when it contradicts or goes beyond cannon it should be labeled AU.

And personally, I would prefer the courtsey of labeling when there is indication of homosexual behavior (even though it be minor) in a fic because I do find it morally offensive and would prefer not to read it. And please note, it's not that I find you as a person offensive; I just strongly disagree with your actions and choices on moral grounds.

Back on topic:

Guess the shippy moment?

[Rachel500]

*<snip>

I agree but do you really think we're supposed to sympathise with our Sam over AU Samantha? I never looked at it that way before.

I do mainly because of the cut back to Sam when Jack's kissing AU Sam. I don't think we're meant not to sympathise with AU Sam at all (as she has lost Jack and her world and is a *Sam*) but I think we're definitely meant to see AU Sam as not ours and therefore to favour our own version more.

Picking up on Aka's comment about Laira being manipulative, see that's not how I see Laira and certainly not how I see AU Samantha. I just see her (AU Sam) as a woman who has grown up with very different influences in her life, who has taken different paths and who has suffered a hidious loss, the likes of which I can't begin to comprehend. I think that she is different from Our Sam but I love that she is.

I think Laira is manipulative to a degree (the I want your baby-don't care you'll still hunger for own world a little-let me chuck out all your old clothes so you can prove you want me-let me delay telling you about the radio beats). I don't think she's consciously manipulative as she is subconsciously trying to keep Jack (and who wouldn't) but it just comes across as a little too stalkerish.

Whereas I don't see AU Sam as manipulative as such in the same way as able to use her feminine wiles to get her way without having any issue with that. For instance, I can see AU Sam suggesting the libidinous solution to solve Hathor rather than having Janet do it.

Also not my favourite of kisses. To me, she's essentially using our Jack to say goodbye to her Jack. I really do think, up to that point, she does have difficulty differentiating between the two. The... lack of passion/spark/whatever in the kiss was what seals it for her. But I also think for Jack it almost has an opposite effect. He, while obviously a bit surprised to be kissing her, certainly isn't a completely passive partner in it all. True he kind of pulls back and stops it going further but I always thought that was for his own protection (because he really quite likes kissing Sam) than anything.
Either way, this is a pivotal moment for Jack. He's been faced with the reality that there could be a workable relationship between a Jack and a Sam (who for all that's different, aren't really *that* different from him and Sam) and he's allowed her (and himself) a little indulgence of exploring that.

I agree Jack wanted to kiss AU Sam and wasn't passive - as I said; I think he wanted to kiss *Sam* and in his head this was as close as he was going to get. But I do think he pulls back because just as it lacks a connection for her, he realises it lacks a connection for him too (he had kissed our Sam in BD after all so had something to compare it to).

[JackandSamAddict]

RE: AU Sam and Jack's kiss thereof (or would that be "whomof"?)

I think Jack had already shown in the ep (by being willing to listen if Sam (our Sam) wanted to talk about the "twin thing") that he was deeply effected by the AU, and the idea that somewhere, he and Sam had a relationship.

So, when faced with someone who both was and was not *his* Sam, and who was so obviously in pain, he needed to offer comfort.

Imagine how he must hurt seeing any version of Sam Carter in pain.

Hmmm....did I miss a Campfire opportunity?

Totally agree, Pol! Very nicely put...especially about him hurting seeing ANY Sam Carter in pain. Oh, the LOVE! Seriously...the love these two share. I know they're just pretend...but it touchs my heart!

[iiradned]

But loves and loves and they're living happily ever after.

Just read a nice little fic in furtherance of happily ever after.

The Colonel and Her Husband by Mandarax

[Devilish Me]

Just read a nice little fic in furtherance of happily ever after.

The Colonel and Her Husband by Mandarax

Thanks iiradned!

[Artie]

OT:My point is evidence. The evidence supports one point of view. The rest is speculation and placing your own personal biases onto the character. We all do it to a certain extent, but when it contradicts or goes beyond cannon it should be labeled AU.

And personally, I would prefer the courtsey of labeling when there is indication of homosexual behavior (even though it be minor) in a fic because I do find it morally offensive and would prefer not to read it. And please note, it's not that I find you as a person offensive; I just strongly disagree with your actions and choices on moral grounds.

I think your words speak strongly for themselves.

[hedwig]

Back on topic:

Guess the shippy moment?

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...PDVD_110-4.jpg

"Menace". They've just stepped out into the hall to discuss Reese.

[Kate1013]

"Menace". They've just stepped out into the hall to discuss Reese.

Having Reese in the background was kinda helpful wasn't it? lol

[hedwig]

Having Reese in the background was kinda helpful wasn't it? lol

[hlndncr]

"Menace". They've just stepped out into the hall to discuss Reese.

Well if I was going to be difficult, I'd say it wasn't just after they stepped out into the hall because Daniel has left to go back and talk with Reese. What I like about this scene is that Sam is essentially ordering Jack back to the planet to look for more clues, and he goes because they both know who's really in charge, rank notwithstanding.

Here's your prize:

They are reporting to Hammond and Janet. Look at the way Jack is totally leaning against her, and he asks her permission before cutting the transmission. Can you say whipped?

[Akamaimom]

Well if I was going to be difficult, I'd say it wasn't just after they stepped out into the hall because Daniel has left to go back and talk with Reese. What I like about this scene is that Sam is essentially ordering Jack back to the planet to look for more clues, and he goes because they both know who's really in charge, rank notwithstanding.

Here's your prize:

They are reporting to Hammond and Janet. Look at the way Jack is totally leaning against her, and he asks her permission before cutting the transmission. Can you say whipped?

[IMG]http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af243/hlndncr/Every%20Sam%20and%20Jack%20Shippy%20Moment%20Ever/PDVD_089-2.jpg[/URL]

You know what that pose says? It says,

"She knows what she's talking about, and I'm here to provide the muscle so that you listen to what she's saying. Even though she could take you down--hard--I'm here as a courtesy to make sure it doesn't get that far. Understand? So listen up, folks."

Me likee that pose!