Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Akamaimom]

My cousin and his wife are friends of mine on FB--they go storm chasing every year (he's a meteorologist). This was her status update this morning:

Spent an hour on a trail on the New Cheyenne Mountain State Park in Colorado Springs -- right next to NORAD. Didn't see any of the SG1 team. Drats.

I like her even more now!

[Rachel500]

SGU on topic

Spoiler:

*gleefully dances around* Jack called her Sam!

SGU off topic

Spoiler:

I think it's been alluded to that the planet that Telford didn't stop from being destroyed while undercover was the thing that 'broke' Young - possibly from the death and destruction he saw then coupled by disillusion with Telford who he seems to have been friends with up until that point.

Add to that the pressure from his wife to give it up, I think Young took Icarus believing it was his last command, that he could retire beyond it with honours.

The way I see it, he turned down the command of the mission to the 9th chevron location because of both - he recognised he knew his heart wasn't in it anymore and because of home pressures.

So I think while Jack obviously rated him enough back when he offered him the 9th chevron mission it has been shown over the course of the series that he's had cause to question Young's command capability in regards to Destiny.

It's interesting that it isn't clear yet whether HWS know of Young's affair with TJ, and that he is the father of her unborn child - because I would love to see Jack's reaction to that given his and Sam's history and situation. Presumably not...although given the situation it would be hard to discipline either Young or TJ, and remove them from the chain of command.

S9...

I agree with both viewpoints actually in regards to Cam. Back on first viewing, as a casual fan with no real military knowledge, I was astounded by the decision not to have Carter reinstated as CO when she returned. As much as I liked Cam (and I did like him as a character despite some inconsistent writing in S9), by comparison, was inexperienced in gate travel, plus Carter had been SG1 leader in S8. I also hated the real world reason of why the story set it up that way - ie, in order to make the new male lead of the show, the leader of SG1. I think they did a disservice to Amanda and to women in general.

However, I have mellowed tremendously and knowing now much more than I did then about the military (not least because of all the useful info posted on this thread) I've come to accept that from a military perspective, it makes in-story sense. I'm still annoyed that they didn't give Sam a much better 'coming back' story where they got to show her unease at being TDY'd back to the SGC beyond her initial TDY on the mission in Beachhead, and I think S9 in general would have been much improved if they'd actually had the team question Mitchell's leadership more overtly (there are some very nice non-verbal looks at times that pass between the original three). But in my own fanon universe, I've made sense of it (that Sam was really unhappy for a while there but trying her best not to make it harder on Mitchell who felt equally bad about how things had turned out for her even if he was glad the band was back together), and I happily rewatch S9 with the thought in my head of...she's so with Jack.

[hedwig]

No spoilers, just OT:

Spoiler:

Actually, as a F-302 squadron commander, Cam had quite a bit of experience in command, more so than Sam in fact. She was in charge of a small (all be it very important) 3 person team, Cam was in charge of an entire squadron. Being a squadron commander (especially a flying squadron) is huge in the AF. So while he may not have had the same off-world experience as Sam, he had his own command experience and was more than qualified to be an SG team leader. Air Force officers are leaders first, specialty second. I've seen pilots placed in command of some strange things that they had no experience at and most of them did amazing jobs.

Also, while he was the same rank as Sam, he had more time in grade (flashbacks show he was a Lt. Col during the events of Lost City, while Sam was still a Major). As long as Cam was on the team, he was the ranking individual. For Sam to be placed in charge, Cam would have had to have been removed. Sam voluntarily came back to SG1 so I would assume she had no problem with Cam being the leader of SG-1.

That said, I know a lot of people hate Cam, and I can understand the frustration, that Sam deserved command and she did. It's just, in my experience, Cam's situation is more the norm, rather than the exception. Cam wasn't exactly a wet behind the ears second lieutenant. He was a seasoned Lieutenant Colonel with battle & leadership experience. He was just new to us.

Anyway, just my very unpopular feelings on the subject.

I never disliked Cam. I just disliked the way he was written as basically being "given" SG1 when (as others have said) he had literally no offworld experience, and there had always been that "nobody goes through that gate without the proper training" bit.

Plus, I was always under the impression that Sam and Cam were the same rank at the time of "Lost City" - Majors. And that Cam was promoted to Lt. Colonel probably about the time he was given his Congressional Medal (or whatever it was), which was during his stay in the hospital, likely after Jack was rescued from Antarctica (which was a couple of months after "Lost City"), and was promoted about the same time Sam was in "New Order". I was under the impression they've always been the same rank. Sam got promoted to Major after in Season 3, "Fair Game"(?), and to Lt. Colonel 4+ years later. I could never see the rank insignia Cam wore in the flashbacks to "Lost City", so i couldn't say what rank he was.

I could imagine Sam taking over the SGC considering that in SG: Resistance she was promoted to general and was running it.

What is SG: Resistance?

[JenniferJF]

I'm still annoyed that they didn't give Sam a much better 'coming back' story where they got to show her unease at being TDY'd back to the SGC beyond her initial TDY on the mission in Beachhead, and I think S9 in general would have been much improved if they'd actually had the team question Mitchell's leadership more overtly (there are some very nice non-verbal looks at times that pass between the original three).

I completely agree with this. I think early season 9 is probably the weakest point in the franchise, which is a shame because considering the changes and instability they should have striven to make them the strongest. I think if Cam had been a little less shoved down our throats as an amazingly marvelous hero and we'd been given a chance to get to know and accept him slowly, and we'd been given more explanation on why he was there and why Sam wasn't and why he retained command and exactly what the situation was in which Sam came back...

Exposition is generally to be avoided but they could have done it through storytelling by taking a little less time to jump right into the Ori storyline and a little more to introduce us to Cam and to establish his relationship within 'the team'. As I wrote this, though, I realized it's quite possible TPTB learned the same lesson themselves considering the progress of the first season of SGU. And of course, it's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation as it took SGU a good half season to really get off the ground because of the care with which they introduced everyone.

[Akamaimom]

And I always thought that Sam didn't really WANT command. She didn't seem too hip to return, and once she did, seemed so at ease with how things were being handled that I thought she really preferred the role she fell into. Not saying that she didn't want to progress, but she's matured so much that I think that she's more comfortable with herself than she ever has been before.

If you watch her expressions when she's gotten her other promotions. She's surprised and kind of shy--trying not to look too excited when she's advanced to Major. When she gets upgraded to Lt. Colonel, she looks more accepting of it--it's not as exciting in a "yippee" way--it's that she's understanding that she's merited the advancement through her hard work and dedication.

We've all commented on her persona in seasons 9 and 10--that she seems more comfortable in her own skin. I think that comes with her being more fulfilled on all levels--she's learned that the balance between personal life and professional life is fragile. And not just on a Jack level, either. I honestly believe that she's internalized that the battle might never be over, and she's just going to keep on going, regardless of rewards. And since she's truly happy for the first time--having more commendations might be nice, but it's not the be all end all of her existence anymore.

I hope that makes sense. I don't think Sam doesn't deserve more, I just think that she's okay with what's there.

[leiasky]

Too bad they couldn't combine the SGC with Homeworld Command making it Homeworld Stargate Command (HWSGC)

I think we will see this in some shape or form.

I could imagine Sam taking over the SGC considering that in SG: Resistance she was promoted to general and was running it.

I don't think the SGC as we knew it in SG1 exists anymore.

Possible spoiler for SGU.

Spoiler:

Walter works for Jack at Home World Command now. . . There's a reason for that. And I think that reason is that the SGC isn't there anymore.

[hedwig]

I'm still annoyed that they didn't give Sam a much better 'coming back' story where they got to show her unease at being TDY'd back to the SGC beyond her initial TDY on the mission in Beachhead, and I think S9 in general would have been much improved if they'd actually had the team question Mitchell's leadership more overtly (there are some very nice non-verbal looks at times that pass between the original three).

I'm still annoyed too.

And I always thought that Sam didn't really WANT command.

AT herself was also pretty disappointed with the way Sam was written at the beginning of S9; she thought Sam should have been given command (esp. since she'd already had it in S8. But being the "good sport" that she is, she went along with it all. I'm pretty sure she expressed her displeasure, but went along with it anyway.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I think we will see this in some shape or form.



I don't think the SGC as we knew it in SG1 exists anymore.

Possible spoiler for SGU.

Spoiler:

Walter works for Jack at Home World Command now. . . There's a reason for that. And I think that reason is that the SGC isn't there anymore.

you also forgot
SGU

Spoiler:

Daniel was at Homeworld Command in Subversion

so im assuming he's working for Homeworld too. and what does that mean for all of those men and women who worked at the SGC were the reassigned or what?

[hlndncr]

I completely agree with this. I think early season 9 is probably the weakest point in the franchise, which is a shame because considering the changes and instability they should have striven to make them the strongest. I think if Cam had been a little less shoved down our throats as an amazingly marvelous hero and we'd been given a chance to get to know and accept him slowly, and we'd been given more explanation on why he was there and why Sam wasn't and why he retained command and exactly what the situation was in which Sam came back...

Exposition is generally to be avoided but they could have done it through storytelling by taking a little less time to jump right into the Ori storyline and a little more to introduce us to Cam and to establish his relationship within 'the team'. As I wrote this, though, I realized it's quite possible TPTB learned the same lesson themselves considering the progress of the first season of SGU. And of course, it's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation as it took SGU a good half season to really get off the ground because of the care with which they introduced everyone.

I don't think TPTB learned how to introduce characters in SGU. They should have gone all the way back to the beginning CotG where we get three new characters (Sam, Teal'c and Hammond) and a totally new Jack. You don't know everything about them, but you get a sense of who they are on which to build and the story's good. I do think they just dropped Cam in like a rock in the middle of the pond. But the real mistake IMHO is that they spent way too much time on Vala (in S9&10 as a whole), especially considering that initially she was just a guest star and not meant to be a permanant member of the cast.

[gater62]

The biggest problem I had with Cam was his name! "Cam and Sam?" Sounds like a Dr. Seuss rhyme! That just gets me started on the problem with similar names SG1 has had over the years!

[hlndncr]

The biggest problem I had with Cam was his name! "Cam and Sam?" Sounds like a Dr. Seuss rhyme! That just gets me started on the problem with similar names SG1 has had over the years!

I actually liked the naming for the most part. In RL there were 12 Jennifers in my graduating class.

Spoiler:

My two college roommates were named Colleen. One was a blond and the other a brunette. We called them chocolate and vanilla. (And I was a readhead at the time; so I'm sure you know how that went.)

On TV you always have tons of weird names and they are always unique. I know there's some logic in that you are trying to keep character's distinct, but the reuse and similarity of names feels much more realistic to me. I know how to keep my friends and colleagues strait and I can keep track of the different characters too. I'm not dumb. (Reminds me of how TPTB has MS grow a beard at the beginning of S9 so I wouldn't get him confused with BB. REALLY?!!)

[Akamaimom]

AT herself was also pretty disappointed with the way Sam was written at the beginning of S9; she thought Sam should have been given command (esp. since she'd already had it in S8. But being the "good sport" that she is, she went along with it all. I'm pretty sure she expressed her displeasure, but went along with it anyway.

See? That proves that AT is one of the best actresses around. I didn't catch that at all in her performance.

[leiasky]

you also forgot
SGU

Spoiler:

Daniel was at Homeworld Command in Subversion

so im assuming he's working for Homeworld too. and what does that mean for all of those men and women who worked at the SGC were the reassigned or what?

Of course. People are reassigned all the time.

I don't think TPTB learned how to introduce characters in SGU. They should have gone all the way back to the beginning CotG where we get three new characters (Sam, Teal'c and Hammond) and a totally new Jack. You don't know everything about them, but you get a sense of who they are on which to build and the story's good. I do think they just dropped Cam in like a rock in the middle of the pond. But the real mistake IMHO is that they spent way too much time on Vala (in S9&10 as a whole), especially considering that initially she was just a guest star and not meant to be a permanant member of the cast.

Completely agree.

[ddc]

Why did Cheyenne Mountain Close down in RL?

It was on the latest Base Realignment and Closing (BRAC) list. I think the reasoning is that they no longer needed the under the mountain, Cold War era facility given current technology & concerns.

It seems that the Mountain has closed "in universe" too since some of the SGC people got transferred to the Pentagon. But I would assume there's still a separate SGC with the Gate somewhere else. I can't imagine that under the Pentagon. For one thing Washington's basically a swamp, not sure how they'd be able to dig a deep enough sub-basement. They could have relocated the Gate somewhere in the Blueridge, there are lots of caves and abandoned mines and hillsides that could be dug out and there's precedent (the formerly secret fallout shelter under the Greenbrier Hotel in WVA). Or just put it in one of the mesas somewhere around Nellis/Area 51 or White Sands.

[hedwig]

See? That proves that AT is one of the best actresses around. I didn't catch that at all in her performance.

If I recall correctly, when Claudia Black became a full time cast member, AT discussed things with CB and they agreed they were not going to bicker or squabble or any of the other diva-type things associated with so many TV series. Not that I think either of them would have ever bickered or squabbled, but I thought that was quite a mature thing to do. And they got along famously, and I doubt there was ever any concern that there would be any dissension between them.