Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[scarimor]

*cuddles her miniature Geek!Sam dolly and tells her that her first reaction to seeing Jack on tape was correct, and that she can do so much better. Pulls Geek!Daniel doll from behind her back and makes them kiss* Of course, she's not good enough for Daniel in Moebius 2, but I could ship for the geek couple in the first episode.

Not after she snogged Jerk!Jack she wasn't, I agree. Those geeks shoulda been made for each other! *spanks your Geek!Sam dolly for being so silly*

[Frostfox]

Not after she snogged Jerk!Jack she wasn't, I agree. Those geeks shoulda been made for each other! *spanks your Geek!Sam dolly for being so silly*

Geek!Sam was cute beyond words! And seeing her with Geek!Danny would have been fun, don't TPTB get sick of going over the same sad, tired route again and again and again? If they are going to do an AU they may as well has some fun with it.

FF

[JessM]

But, even if it wasn't them, it was Geek!Sam. Geek!Sam deserved so much better than Jerk!Jack. She was such a sweetheart up until that moment (maybe before, I don't know. In my universe, Moebius is only one episode). That episode doesn't make me cringe because I associated with the Jack and Sam of this universe. It makes me cringe because of the ones in that one. *cuddles her miniature Geek!Sam dolly and tells her that her first reaction to seeing Jack on tape was correct, and that she can do so much better. Pulls Geek!Daniel doll from behind her back and makes them kiss* Of course, she's not good enough for Daniel in Moebius 2, but I could ship for the geek couple in the first episode.

Exactly. I could never picture Geek!Sam falling for Jerk!Jack. When she told him she was more attracted to Daniel (meaning "our" Daniel), I thought, "yeah, you tell him!" - not so much because I am a s/d shipper (I still don't want to see it onscreen), but because I agreed that she deserved better than Jerk!Jack and was glad to see her turn him down in a way.

I really need a Geek!Sam doll and a Geek!Daniel doll.

[JessM]

Geek!Sam was cute beyond words! And seeing her with Geek!Danny would have been fun, don't TPTB get sick of going over the same sad, tired route again and again and again? If they are going to do an AU they may as well has some fun with it.

FF

Couldn't agree more! It wouldn't have hurt for them to show that there actually is an AU where she isn't stuck with Jack. I would have loved to see what they could do with it. Wish I knew of some good fanfic in that regard...

[Frostfox]

Couldn't agree more! It wouldn't have hurt for them to show that there actually is an AU where she isn't stuck with Jack. I would have loved to see what they could do with it. Wish I knew of some good fanfic in that regard...

Or with Teal'c or with Hammond or with Cam or with Janet use your imagination, if you are going to make Sam need a guy, have some fun with it. S/J is not a religious tract, it's not blasphemy to put her with someone else, there might be some untapped chemistry there. And I'm sure AT would have fun with it too!

FF

[Dani347]

Well, Sam will never be with anyone but Jack in an AU and vice versa,(unless the poor schlub buys it in the end) because AU's are meant to show how the love of Sam and Jack transcends life, space, time, chemistry, logic, gag reflexes, the desire to poke something sharp into your eye, etc, etc, etc.

[Frostfox]

Well, Sam will never be with anyone but Jack in an AU and vice versa,(unless the poor schlub buys it in the end) because AU's are meant to show how the love of Sam and Jack transcends life, space, time, chemistry, logic, gag reflexes, the desire to poke something sharp into your eye, etc, etc, etc.

Not to mention the regulations of the United States Air Force.
And the boundaries of good taste.

FF

[jckfan55]

I never saw any of the dreaded shippiness in Solitudes. Jack was in love with Sarah, as far as I could see, and Sam certainly wasn't in love with him.

Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I see that episode as a *team* episode or possibly a mentor/mentee episode. Sam, only a captain at this point, has to take charge, which she hadn't done before, and under dire circumstances. O'Neill and Carter have a mutual respect at this point. I do like the episode.

[jckfan55]

Or with Teal'c or with Hammond or with Cam or with Janet use your imagination, if you are going to make Sam need a guy, have some fun with it. S/J is not a religious tract, it's not blasphemy to put her with someone else, there might be some untapped chemistry there. And I'm sure AT would have fun with it too!

FF

LOL! Even though I tend to oppose "ship" among the main cast on general principle I thought GeekSam and GeekDaniel were kind of cute together.

[scarimor]

Exactly. I could never picture Geek!Sam falling for Jerk!Jack. When she told him she was more attracted to Daniel (meaning "our" Daniel), I thought, "yeah, you tell him!" - not so much because I am a s/d shipper (I still don't want to see it onscreen), but because I agreed that she deserved better than Jerk!Jack and was glad to see her turn him down in a way.

Me too. I got tingly hoping Sam would get off with Daniel in Moebius 2 - and I'd never seen them that way before (I ship Sam/Janet more than any other pairing ) I'm sure a big part of it was the way Jerk!Jack just presumed to hit on her and her rejection of him felt so spot on. It would have been such a cool thing to see the geek get the girl.

But no, TPTB fell into their same tedious rut and shipped the girl with the jerk after all. Gagh! What a waste of an opportunity. So blinkin unoriginal.

I really need a Geek!Sam doll and a Geek!Daniel doll.

Bet you'd keep 'em busy together

[Frostfox]

LOL! Even though I tend to oppose "ship" among the main cast on general principle I thought GeekSam and GeekDaniel were kind of cute together.

I don't want 'ship' amongst the main characters either, but if you are going to do a fantasy sequence, why not have fun with it? Not re-hashing the same regurgitated tripe again and again and again.

I sometimes wonder if TPTB think that if they hit us over the head often enough with something, it will soften our brains and we will be assimilated into the ranks of squeeing fangirls/boys - and not just over the issue of The Evil Ship of Doom.

FF

[Pagan Twylight]

I'm sure a big part of it was the way Jerk!Jack just presumed to hit on her and her rejection of him felt so spot on. It would have been such a cool thing to see the geek get the girl.
But no, TPTB fell into their same tedious rut and shipped the girl with the jerk after all. Gagh! What a waste of an opportunity. So blinkin unoriginal.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that as long as you have an all male writing staff, you are going to have these types of pairings and situations. There was a female writer on the staff at first, while Glassner was there. hm...they both left, we got the "ship from H**l. An all male writing team would never think to pair up the geeks.... no, no, no... the geek girl Must love the the big tough jerk of Manly attitudes, even though he is lucky to be able to string two sentences together and have them make sense. I'm sure we can all see exactly what she would be attracted to in him... His sensitivity? his ability to understand her? his above average intelligence, then?... not.

I'm not sure these writers know how to get out of a rut. I think they've dug one so deep they can't see out of it anymore, so they have no choice, but to follow it. For that matter, I doubt very much if they even have a desire to leave it. It must be very comfortable by now.

The Tok'Ra were changed from promising allies to jerks. There was NO delving into Tok'Ra history, no comparing them to the Goa'uld and exploring that dynamic, and the women, both theirs and ours, were suddenly nothing but barbie dolls. (although, once I got past the clothes, and studied the character, I realized I liked the character of Anise and use her often in my fics. She was very bright and uninhibited. Something I think we should see more of in women's characters. Why should it be okay for a male character to bed hop, but not a female character? I don't buy that and never did.

There were so many great possibilities that they ignored to take on the ship that it is truly sad. So much mythology wasted, so many fine characters killed, so many promising story lines discarded for the likes of the J/S ship, the NID and now the "Ori", who I would like to see thrown into their fiery pit and left there. I don't know when I've seen as boring an antagonist, and the replicators...blech.

I miss the team shows that didn't even have an antagonist, or at most a really minor one, no great "arcs", just delightful story telling. ALL of that went away after Glassner left as far as I am concerned.

And the J/S ship was brought in to replace good story telling. It was a rotten trade, as far as I'm concerned, and I can only hope that we don't have to be subjected to Jack the Jerk and Sam the Adolescent this season.

When RDA left, they should have killed the character of Jack O'Neill and allowed Sam to grieve for a couple of minutes, get over it by the next show as if he had never existed, and go on as the leader of the team. Instead, there is now a chance we are back to Jack starring in As the JackGate turns, so does your stomach.

I had nothing against RDA or the character of O'Neill as he was in the first three seasons. After that, I lost respect for the character the writers were giving us and for RDA for not standing up as an executive producer and the "star" of the show and saying NO to the ship. As big a draw as he was for the show, he could have killed it dead by just refusing to do it. They wouldn't have had a choice if they wanted to keep him and they did want to... so... RDA is just as much to blame for the ship as the writers in my opinion.

Since I'm now finished with that rant, I'll apologize now, in case I insulted anyone.

Pagan
(who has writer's block at two A.M., so thought she'd come here and write something to get her back in the mood. So far, it hasn't worked.

[Frostfox]

Since I'm now finished with that rant, I'll apologize now, in case I insulted anyone.

Pagan
(who has writer's block at two A.M., so thought she'd come here and write something to get her back in the mood. So far, it hasn't worked.

You're allowed a rant!

I wonder if AT and RDA are aware that not everyone thinks that the Sam 'n Sir relationship is the best thing since sliced bread? Most of their feedback will come from conventions (which RDA doesn't attend) and I would assume that they would have publicists/assistants who would, if they were doing their job properly, keep an eye on fannish trends.

But at a convention, you are not very likely to go up to poor AT and tell her exactly what you think of the bilge water which is S/J, it would be rude and it's hardly her fault, it's what the writers (and yes, kalico, I think having a female writer would help) do to her poor character, not her.
But the internet, a good source of such info, is so partisan. If you only took your information off Gateworld, you would think that a large proportion of the fanbase was into S/J. If you got it from other boards, you would get a very different perception.

It would be very interesting to get a totally independant assessment of how many fans, casual, dedicated and fanatical are pro/anti/just couldn't care less.

I suspect TPTB would get a bit of an eye opener as to how small a percentage really are interested in watching a 40 year old woman in a pink cardigan gate crash on her boss and his girlfriend. As opposed to the percentage who would be interested in a team of adventurers, led by a strong clever female soldier (not that I'm annoyed by them taking Sam's command away or anything) go have adventures across the galaxy.
I know which show I want to watch.

FF

[Pagan Twylight]

I wonder if AT and RDA are aware that not everyone thinks that the Sam 'n Sir relationship is the best thing since sliced bread? Most of their feedback will come from conventions (which RDA doesn't attend) and I would assume that they would have publicists/assistants who would, if they were doing their job properly, keep an eye on fannish trends.

I don't really know how they would know unless they checked out the different boards. It is a shame that they don't know how many people really dislike the Sam'n'Sir that is getting shoved down our throats.

If you only took your information off Gateworld, you would think that a large proportion of the fanbase was into S/J. If you got it from other boards, you would get a very different perception.

It would be very interesting to get a totally independant assessment of how many fans, casual, dedicated and fanatical are pro/anti/just couldn't care less.

Are there other places that it is not believed that Jack/Sam is the Alpha and the Omega? Where? I'd love to look one over. It seems to be becoming more pervasive than ever to me. You used to be able to go to the big archives and find storie about all of the different ships from Sam/whoever to Jack/Other, too. Now, it is as if the archives should all change their names to the Sam/Jack, Jack/Daniel archives because those are the only pairings that seem to be written about anymore. It is all so ... mediocre, too. The same old wornout stories over and over; same story, different author.

Yes, that would be an interesting poll to take. Of course, I tend to think they would stuff the voting so it wouldn't be correct either.

I suspect TPTB would get a bit of an eye opener as to how small a percentage really are interested in watching a 40 year old woman in a pink cardigan gate crash on her boss and his girlfriend. As opposed to the percentage who would be interested in a team of adventurers, led by a strong clever female soldier (not that I'm annoyed by them taking Sam's command away or anything) go have adventures across the galaxy.
I know which show I want to watch.

FF

I agree. I also have to say that the scene you are talking about was one of the most painfully disgusting things I've ever watched. I can't believe a woman would write something like that. I think one of the things that bothers me about the entire J/S debacle is that it show antagonism from the writers to women. It wasn't there the first three years. It has gotten progressively worse. The scene you mention is so embarrasingly gauche it is pathetic. I cannot, absolutely cannot, see a brilliant, confident, mature, beautiful forty year old woman EVER doing that. The entire concept would be laughable if it wasn't that it points to the writers feeling antagonistic toward women. They only seem to be able to write madonnas or whores. They just can't get a handle on a modern, with it, confident, capable woman...sigh.

I also know that the shoving down the throat part is what has turned me so very, very much against any ship at all on the show. If they had left the much loved recurring characters alive, left the ship nice subtle shots that could have been taken either way or ignored completely, and stayed with a team dynamic instead of this split story a story b to the point where there is almost nothing with the entire team in it, I would not have become so staunchly against the J/S stuff. I could have ignored it.

At this point I have no sympathy for the J/S shippers either and don't care if they are "cheated" out of their perfect ending. As far as I'm concerned they haven't given a d**n about my feelings and how totally horrific it was when they killed Martouf and Lantash or how much I despise their ship, so I see no reason to feel sympathy if the writers don't give them a "real" wedding. I haven't seen any of them trying to get Martouf, Janet, or Jacob brought back because it caused me distress, when they were murdered by the writers in the name of J/S ship. It used to be I was more of a ship and let ship... but not after the way I've been force fed it for the last six years. I'm just sick of it, period, to the point that I don't even want Sam and Jack in the same scene together. And that is a very sad postscript to a once charming on-screen friendship.

I think I'd better stop and go to bed before I make myself so agitated I can't sleep... and to miss sleep over a TV program, is Not healthy. Therefore, I will say good night and go dream about Sam with Lantash, Malek, or Daniel....anyone except Jack or his clone, Pete.

Night,

Pagan

[Frostfox]

I agree. I also have to say that the scene you are talking about was one of the most painfully disgusting things I've ever watched. I can't believe a woman would write something like that. I think one of the things that bothers me about the entire J/S debacle is that it show antagonism from the writers to women. It wasn't there the first three years. It has gotten progressively worse. The scene you mention is so embarrasingly gauche it is pathetic. I cannot, absolutely cannot, see a brilliant, confident, mature, beautiful forty year old woman EVER doing that. The entire concept would be laughable if it wasn't that it points to the writers feeling antagonistic toward women. They only seem to be able to write madonnas or whores. They just can't get a handle on a modern, with it, confident, capable woman...sigh.

I couldn't believe SAM behaving like that! She's not the best advertisement in the world for relationships but (joking about Black Widow Curse aside) she's not that emotionally stunted. And she was betrothed to another man at the time. What sort of picture of her were the writers trying to convey? That she's so obsessed with the man that she doesn't care about her fiance? But of course, S/J is the sacred ship, it is written in the stars, so they can ruin their lead female character in its name - Sam has been as much a victim of the ship as Martuf, Janet and Jacob.

I also know that the shoving down the throat part is what has turned me so very, very much against any ship at all on the show. If they had left the much loved recurring characters alive, left the ship nice subtle shots that could have been taken either way or ignored completely, and stayed with a team dynamic instead of this split story a story b to the point where there is almost nothing with the entire team in it, I would not have become so staunchly against the J/S stuff. I could have ignored it.

I think that's true of most of us, the writers have made a rod for their own backs by being so unsubtle and ramming it (ladled with lashings and lashings of syrupy piano music!) down our throats.

At this point I have no sympathy for the J/S shippers either and don't care if they are "cheated" out of their perfect ending. As far as I'm concerned they haven't given a d**n about my feelings and how totally horrific it was when they killed Martouf and Lantash or how much I despise their ship, so I see no reason to feel sympathy if the writers don't give them a "real" wedding. I haven't seen any of them trying to get Martouf, Janet, or Jacob brought back because it caused me distress, when they were murdered by the writers in the name of J/S ship. It used to be I was more of a ship and let ship... but not after the way I've been force fed it for the last six years. I'm just sick of it, period, to the point that I don't even want Sam and Jack in the same scene together. And that is a very sad postscript to a once charming on-screen friendship.

I'm afraid that if fans think the people who write the series 'owe' them something they might be in for a rude awakening. No matter what the long term plans at Bridge, if Sony pull the plug suddenly half way through season 11, they would be left hanging just as much as any other storyline. Which is, of course, the advantage of Trek, they now plan for a seven year arc (which isn't set in stone, look at Enterprise, they pulled that) which meant that Deep Space Nine had a proper conclusion for all the characters, all the plot threads and a satisfying ending. And that Voyager got home and finished their story. There are no such guarantees for us or for the S/J fans.

And the once charming on-screen friendship has also died a sad death, along with Sam's self respect, Jack's honour and Martuf, Janet and Jacob.
Which saddens me most of all.

FF